Sandylou
Well-Known Member
Does this mean that the owner would be liable for 9 years worth of costs?
Ownership legalities - Long story needs a conclusion
- Thread starter Sandylou
- Start date
Does this mean that the owner would be liable for 9 years worth of costs?
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Sadly only from when the notice is put up.
Sandylou
Well-Known Member
ihatework
Well-Known Member
What would happen if you called owners bluff?!!!
Dear X,
I have very much enjoyed my time loaning your horse and I am sad that you aren't prepared to transfer ownership but understand your reasons.
I will arrange to deliver the horse to your location next weekend so that you may continue the care yourself.
I appreciate you haven't been involved in this horses care recently so you should be aware of the ongoing needs and costs - I will happily advise the vets of your intention to take over care from now on in
Then give a nice long list of ongoing vet costs (a little embellishment wouldn't hurt)
Maybe also list any tack and equipment they may wish to purchase off you
Maybe the horse is showing intermittent lameness and has a tendancy to try and buck you off (they might want to invest in an air jacket)
Dear X,
I have very much enjoyed my time loaning your horse and I am sad that you aren't prepared to transfer ownership but understand your reasons.
I will arrange to deliver the horse to your location next weekend so that you may continue the care yourself.
I appreciate you haven't been involved in this horses care recently so you should be aware of the ongoing needs and costs - I will happily advise the vets of your intention to take over care from now on in
Then give a nice long list of ongoing vet costs (a little embellishment wouldn't hurt)
Maybe also list any tack and equipment they may wish to purchase off you
Maybe the horse is showing intermittent lameness and has a tendancy to try and buck you off (they might want to invest in an air jacket)
Sandylou
Well-Known Member
Great idea!
(love the last bit! And she actually has a tendency to leap or bomb off rather than buck so it wouldn't be too exaggerated )Annagain
Well-Known Member
I must admit, the sort of person who would happily "win" a horse off a friend doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would be reasonable about this sort of thing.
If she has been "sharing" the horse, I would imagine she has every right to demand 9 years worth of his share of livery, vets etc?
If she has been "sharing" the horse, I would imagine she has every right to demand 9 years worth of his share of livery, vets etc?
Sugar_and_Spice
Well-Known Member
This. The whole situation is crazy.
The sharer has allowed herself to be used, which is nobody's fault but her own. She should have been paying a weekly or monthly fee to the owner and letting the owner pay for all the horses costs for care/vet/livery etc. Otherwise she's been full loaning which generally involves paying for everything, in which case why was she ever thinking the horse would automatically become hers? The horse never becomes yours no matter how much you spend on vet bills, which is why a lot of full loan horses are returned to the owner if a major problem occurs.
Sure, this horse is worthless to pretty much everybody, but the owner was happy to have someone else put their hand in their pocket for 9yrs so is unlikely to give an asset away to somebody who has stated they want it. The fact someone wants the horse gives it value, so if this owner parts with it at all he's going to want a proper sale. I actually doubt he'll move the horse elsewhere, that's probably a ruse to get the sharer to pay far more than the horse is worth to prevent losing it.
If she wants to carry on sharing why not ask the owner for bank details so she can set up a regular weekly standing order into his account? They can agree the amount between them and which days the share will be for. She could draft a written share agreement making it clear the owner is responsible from now on for paying livery, dealing with vets, purchasing bedding/hay/feed and having it delivered to the yard, as well as caring for the horse (or paying someone else to) on days the sharer doesn't cover. All she needs then is somewhere to lock her tack and equipment away (if it is hers not the owners) to prevent him using it. If she faces him with all that, he'll maybe decide giving the horse away isn't such a bad idea after all. Alternatively, if he genuinely does feel put out that other people have been riding his horse all these years and has only been allowing it because these other people were covering all the costs, he might be glad of a formal agreement giving both himself and current sharer regular access and still having a financial contribution of some kind from the sharer.
Templebar
Well-Known Member
This was my point exactly, she really shouldn't have expected him to be.
As ihatework said call his bluff, as there is no contract she has just as much right to drop the horse off as he does to take, therefore ask where, tell him when (saturday), then add about the vets and equipment, could even include the costs for the end of life plan that has been discussed with vets (as this wont be cheap). Please bare in mind if he gives a location and date, then it might be worth going through with it, then hope he gives up before or shortly after receiving said horse. She would obviously be the first contact should he want to give horse up.
Sugar_and_Spice
Well-Known Member
I thought the owner was the one who brought this horse to the livery yard originally? So why would he need to remove it to another yard if he doesn't want the sharer to share any more? He might choose to move the horse in his own time when he's found somewhere, but I really don't see the sharer has any right to demand a location to drop the horse off to this weekend.
Templebar
Well-Known Member
Well if that is the case then inform him and YO that you will no longer be caring for the horse. I only stated location as it had sounded like he wanted to move the horse. If the horse stays it may work in favor as if he doesn't come forward then the yard owner could claim abandonment and claim horse which she may then let friend buy.
DD
Well-Known Member
Any conclusion to this? What happened?
Lizzie66
Well-Known Member
I would suggest that your friend says obviously she was under a misapprehension as to the terms of their agreement as she understood that the horse had been gifted to her some time ago and that she was just looking to tie up loose ends on the legal front.
That she doesn't want to be difficult and that due to her belief that the horse was in fact hers she had been happy to pay all costs relating to the horses care and use. In light of these new circumstances she therefore feels that it is only right that all costs relating to care are shared but that she is happy to pay for all costs soley relating to care.
She is therefore enclosing a bill for 50% of all livery bills, trimming feet only, vet costs relating to injections, dentist bills, insurance (ie any costs that would have been required if the horse hadn't been in work). 50% of a bill for 9 years care may well put them off (50% of £25 a week for 9 years is almost £6,000)
She should then also include a list of all the costs that she is happy to pick up ie hard feed, supplements, farrier bills (less the trimming), vets bills other than injections, her time and fuel involved in taking care of the horse.
I would also lay it on thick about the cost of vet bills going forward plus cost of disposal when the time comes. If this person is non horsey and has never cared for the horse then they may well not appreciate what it is going to cost them to take on board every day care.
FestiveFuzz
Well-Known Member
Am I the only one who finds some of the advice on this thread a bit unsavory?
At the end of the day your friend chose to pay for a horse that wasn't hers for 9 years. Presumably she was happy to have a horse to treat as her own without the initial outlay of purchasing the horse. From what you've said it sounds like she's enjoyed many years with this mare, and throughout this time was under no illusion that she was not the owner of the horse and that it had not been gifted nor abandoned else she would never have felt the need to contact the owner in the first place to ask about buying her. So the very fact that you are now looking for some loophole to gain ownership or recharge the owner for the costs of keeping the horse that is her world is quite frankly appalling. The horse was essentially on full loan, as such your friend was responsible with the day to day costs of keeping the horse. If she was unhappy with that she should have bought her own horse and handed this mare back. Whilst I understand it must be frustrating for the owner to suddenly be showing an interest in this mare, she is still his horse and he's therefore legally entitled to do as he pleases with her.
At the end of the day your friend chose to pay for a horse that wasn't hers for 9 years. Presumably she was happy to have a horse to treat as her own without the initial outlay of purchasing the horse. From what you've said it sounds like she's enjoyed many years with this mare, and throughout this time was under no illusion that she was not the owner of the horse and that it had not been gifted nor abandoned else she would never have felt the need to contact the owner in the first place to ask about buying her. So the very fact that you are now looking for some loophole to gain ownership or recharge the owner for the costs of keeping the horse that is her world is quite frankly appalling. The horse was essentially on full loan, as such your friend was responsible with the day to day costs of keeping the horse. If she was unhappy with that she should have bought her own horse and handed this mare back. Whilst I understand it must be frustrating for the owner to suddenly be showing an interest in this mare, she is still his horse and he's therefore legally entitled to do as he pleases with her.
fatpiggy
Well-Known Member
This is why you have a written contract - no misunderstandings, no changes of mind. Everything in black and white. I paid rent on my flat for 20 years, decorated regularly etc but didn't assume ownership because I didn't see my landlord very often. On the other hand, he didn't put the rent up either so I was able to live cheaply (and therefore afford my horse).
Lizzie66
Well-Known Member
I know I offered some of this advice you say is unsavoury and to a certain extent I agree with you.
However my response was in direct response to the what the owner has comeback with. He has said that he is sharing the horse, this is despite having nothing to do with it for 9 years. I would imagine he is setting the scene to take advantage of the loaners emotional attachment to the horse and ask her to buy the horse from him. This is a horse that probably has negligible value to anyone else due to its age.
What is correct in law and what is morally correct are not the same and to be honest I think in this instance I find the correct in law stance more unsavoury. If the time period had been less or regular contact maintained or the horse been valuable then I would have had a different viewpoint.
springtime1331
Well-Known Member
I would imagine if he is not horsey he probably wouldn't understand the concept of sharing and loaning in the way we do. Has she tried offering money for the horse? I would have thought a roll of bank notes may be the easiest way to solve this issue.
fatpiggy
Well-Known Member
But a share can mean any ratio unless it is stipulated in a contract. If you don't set the goalposts, you can hardly complain when someone moves them.
Lizzie66
Well-Known Member
True, but that works both ways. The owner has confirmed that he believed it was a share, neither party has stipulated what the basis of that share is, so it is up to them to come to an arrangement that suits them both. If they can't then they could take it to court and allow the law to decide what the contract was that they had.
rowan666
Well-Known Member
Totally agree!
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
I'm a bit confused why its taken your friend 9 years to cross this bridge to be honest, and never seen the horses passport?! So I guess she's never had it vaccinated and never taken it to a show etc.?
I think she simply needs to contact the owner and see what he says, he might be totally happy to sign the horse over.
I think she simply needs to contact the owner and see what he says, he might be totally happy to sign the horse over.
fatpiggy
Well-Known Member
But they should have beaten all this out BEFORE the horse moved in. The judge should tell them to stop wasting his time and that of the court.
Sandylou
Well-Known Member
Hi everyone. Thanks for all the replies.
Just so we all know why a contract isn't in place....the carer of the horse was 12 when she took the mare on and didn't even know what contracts were let alone what a contract should say . Her parents are non horsey and so were not aware of loan contracts either.
There's no resolution as yet but advice has been given by a friend who is a policeman. Carer is to offer a small amount to buy the horse and if owner declines the offer she is to say he can have the horse back as soon as he's settled his 9 years worth of bills. If owner reports the horse stolen the carer has been advised that she is lawfully entitled to keep the horse until the bill is paid. Anyone with half a brain won't pay that amount of bills/money for a quirky 20 year old thoroughbred so hopefully that's where it'll end and the owner will finally accept a token payment for the sale of the horse to the carer.
Just so we all know why a contract isn't in place....the carer of the horse was 12 when she took the mare on and didn't even know what contracts were let alone what a contract should say . Her parents are non horsey and so were not aware of loan contracts either.
There's no resolution as yet but advice has been given by a friend who is a policeman. Carer is to offer a small amount to buy the horse and if owner declines the offer she is to say he can have the horse back as soon as he's settled his 9 years worth of bills. If owner reports the horse stolen the carer has been advised that she is lawfully entitled to keep the horse until the bill is paid. Anyone with half a brain won't pay that amount of bills/money for a quirky 20 year old thoroughbred so hopefully that's where it'll end and the owner will finally accept a token payment for the sale of the horse to the carer.
abss
New User
Hi everyone, I am the friend of Sandylou and i am the one that is in this horrible mess! 
never ever have I said that i am trying to steal the horse or use a loophole to gain ownership. Unfortunately 9 years ago i would have been 13 years old and so i never thought this far down the line i would still have her. It all started with me riding her and general duties as and when i went down, so before i took over the horse was technically abandoned. As time has gone on i have cared for this horse more and more so much to the point that it would break my heart to ever have to give this horse back. The 'owner' as far am I'm concerned shouldnt be allowed to keep any horse if hes going to leave them for weeks in the field. If he was worried about her health and well being surely he would be in touch more than once a year!! I dont want to have to fall out with the owner but i do not want to see her go back to him to be abandoned again or worse, sold on to anyone else. Im doing this as i care about her, and as mentioned above she is not worth anything to any one else but is worth the whole world to me and my family! i know things should have been sorted sooner but unfortunately for all of us they weren't and this is the situation we are in today. Please no negative comments i just need abit of help and advice. Thank you all so much for you help so far.
never ever have I said that i am trying to steal the horse or use a loophole to gain ownership. Unfortunately 9 years ago i would have been 13 years old and so i never thought this far down the line i would still have her. It all started with me riding her and general duties as and when i went down, so before i took over the horse was technically abandoned. As time has gone on i have cared for this horse more and more so much to the point that it would break my heart to ever have to give this horse back. The 'owner' as far am I'm concerned shouldnt be allowed to keep any horse if hes going to leave them for weeks in the field. If he was worried about her health and well being surely he would be in touch more than once a year!! I dont want to have to fall out with the owner but i do not want to see her go back to him to be abandoned again or worse, sold on to anyone else. Im doing this as i care about her, and as mentioned above she is not worth anything to any one else but is worth the whole world to me and my family! i know things should have been sorted sooner but unfortunately for all of us they weren't and this is the situation we are in today. Please no negative comments i just need abit of help and advice. Thank you all so much for you help so far.
FestiveFuzz
Well-Known Member
I think you will struggle legally to keep the horse until 9 years of livery has been settled as there is no contract either way to prove this was the agreement and legally the horse is owned by someone else and you willing took on the daily costs of the horse, had contact details for the owner and at no point during the 9 years have you pursued abandonment, which I suspect is what you'd have needed to claim. To all intents you've had this mare on full loan for the duration (as implied by your friend at the start) albeit without a contract. I also think the threat of keeping the horse until backdated livery is paid is likely to make what seems to be a bad situation much, much worse and I would imagine there's a very real risk that the owner will take the horse back and cut all ties with you if you proceed down this avenue.
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but presumably at 12/13 you wouldn't have been in the position to buy your own horse and therefore as I said before, should perhaps count your blessings that you've had the joy of having this horse in your life for as long as you have. From what your friend said it sounded like the owner wanted more involvement with this mare rather than to take her back completely. So in your shoes I would take a softly, softly approach...say you very much want to keep the mare in your care but would obviously welcome him coming and seeing her whenever he wants.
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but presumably at 12/13 you wouldn't have been in the position to buy your own horse and therefore as I said before, should perhaps count your blessings that you've had the joy of having this horse in your life for as long as you have. From what your friend said it sounded like the owner wanted more involvement with this mare rather than to take her back completely. So in your shoes I would take a softly, softly approach...say you very much want to keep the mare in your care but would obviously welcome him coming and seeing her whenever he wants.
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popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Very sound advice from FF . You need to think of ways to approach the situation without making it worse for yourself and often the head on approach is the best. Go and see him tell him how you feel about the mare ,tell him you are trying to find the best solution for all of you . Ask why he has just left it to you for such long periods. Tell him of all you have spent on her. However try and do this in a non confrontational way .
Maybe something can be retrieved from the mess if you both talk it wont if you dont. Good luck!
I do hate these friend asking for a friend threads were all the facts arent made available at the start.
Only the owner and you can sort this so better sooner rather than later. Go and tell him what you said in the post above leaving out the negative bits ,He would need to have the skin of a rhinoceros not to listen .
Maybe something can be retrieved from the mess if you both talk it wont if you dont. Good luck!
I do hate these friend asking for a friend threads were all the facts arent made available at the start.
Only the owner and you can sort this so better sooner rather than later. Go and tell him what you said in the post above leaving out the negative bits ,He would need to have the skin of a rhinoceros not to listen .
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Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Hi everyone, I am the friend of Sandylou and i am the one that is in this horrible mess!
I would not give you any nasty comments, but I am sorry, I don't think you have a claim.
This is one reason OH has turned down a couple of loan offers while I have been looking for a horse. He knows me too well to allow me to fall in love with a horse that could be taken off me.
I am sorry but I think the owner is entitled to his horse. IMO (as a recent ex Police Officer) you could charge him livery as soon as you ask him to pick the horse up, and maybe give him 7 days to pick it up (as this would be reasonable). I do not see a court in this land that would allow you to backdate livery for 9 years, especially as the horse has been for your sole use, loans are common, and there was no contract. It would be as likely to succeed as if he decided to charge you £10 for every hour that you rode the horse.
TBH it is not a Police matter, and you would be better to get advice off a civil lawyer, as they would be better informed.
If it were me, I would make the man an offer for his horse. Either that or allow him to ride, as he suggests, as it is, after all, his horse! The third option is to hand the horse back.
In all reality I think he will come and ride the horse a time or two, and then not bother any more!
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southerncomfort
Well-Known Member
With all due respect this is totally duff advice!
You can't charge someone for services unless you agreed that he would be charged right at the beginning of the agreement. To all intents and purposes this is a loan and it is normal for a loaner to pay all bills.
If the horse is sold without the agreement of the owner then I'm afraid the loaner will be in whole world of trouble because that is theft. I also agree with the comment above, that if the loaner starts making silly threats she stands to lose the horse completely.
Sugar_and_Spice
Well-Known Member
No, you're not. I totally agree with you.
Sorry abss but you *are* trying to steal a horse/force a sale at a price of your choosing/blackmail(?) horses owner for 9yrs costs.
The horse wasn't abandoned, it was on livery but the owner didn't visit the horse. If he was paying livery and had some arrangement for farrier and vet as necessary, then there was no welfare problem or abandonment. If he wasn't paying that was a matter between him and the YO. If the horse needed food, farrier or vet and he refused to organize it or pay, then YO (or any person) could have involved a welfare agency. Nobody did. The fact the horse wasn't being cared for to your standards was neither here nor there legally, as long as it was in reasonable health/condition with access to water welfare agencies wouldn't act.
You took the horse on loan, your choice. You've been naive in assuming the horses owner would gift her to you if you took over all costs. If you wanted that you or your parents should have asked from the outset, you didn't for whatever reason and that is not the horse owners problem.
If I lend my car to my sister for an unidentified period of time, if she fills it with petrol and carries out repairs, drives it to the other end of the country to go on holiday, that still doesn't make it her car unless I choose to gift it to her.
You've taken a horse that nobody bothered with, gave it love and attention and paid the costs. That was admirable. The way you're behaving now regarding ownership isn't.
I realise most of that isn't what you wanted to hear, but you don't get to post on a public forum and then dictate the types of response you receive.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Abss, Make the owner an offer and buy the horse you love .
It's really that simple it's not your horse buy it and make it yours .
It's not fair but that's life .
It's really that simple it's not your horse buy it and make it yours .
It's not fair but that's life .
rowan666
Well-Known Member
Could not agree more!