Pain or temperament issue?

[Wagtail]

Okay, here's the scenario. A Parelli friend of mine (I'm not a Parelli enthusiast BTW) got bucked off twice in quick succession on the road just going into trot. Horse exploded and threw her off. I look at this horse and she is very short backed, quite weak top line, back a little dipped. I think pain issues, kissing spine etc. Has been checked by vet and chiro and neither think she has major issues. Owner insists it is her leadership that is at fault as she had hacked out and trotted fine in the school both before and after the incident. She thinks it's because it was a strange route with strange horses and it all got too exciting for her. She blames herself for not giving her the right leadership to make her feel prepared. However, the horse does have a history of bucking fits in the round pen when saddled and in the past when ridden. All her parelli friends are encouraging her to go along the behavioural route and send her away to Parelli expert etc to sort out. I keep telling her it's a pain issue but no one listens. I don't want her to risk herself before getting him properly checked out. The vet she uses is not a horse specific vet.

So what do others think when tackling similar issues? Is it a Parelli 'trait' not to consider physical causes for anything that goes wrong? I always think that 99% of these cases have a pain issue that at least contributes.

Please tick the option that you think it is MOST likely to be in your opinion.

 

[amandap]

I know nothing of Parelli but it does seem to be very common in the horse world in general to consider a horse with issues to be, 'taking the p or being 'naughty' or being 'awkward' or a 'p**t, a common explanation. This view naturally leads to a tunnel visioned behavioural approach imo.

I'm not saying horses don't possibly buck or similar for joy etc. occasionally btw. the whole picture has to be taken into account.

Just seen your poll. Voted.

 

[missyme10]

Pain should always be ruled out first.
I know little about Parelli, but surely they would eliminate pain first before looking to behaviour?

All you can do is voice an opinion, beyond that its their horse

 

[joeanne]

Bit unfair eh? I am by no means a parelli follower (in fact I cant think of anything worse) but you have clearly stated that both vet and chiro think she is sound!

 

[amandap]

Bit unfair eh? I am by no means a parelli follower (in fact I cant think of anything worse) but you have clearly stated that both vet and chiro think she is sound!

I agree.

Just remembered those words of 'you've got to show him who's boss' that I've heard and read so many times from non Parelli people. Isn't that similar thinking?

 

[Damnation]

Pain.
My mare who was PTS would just suddenly have bucking fits.
Vets told me I was paranoid, chiropractor never picked it up. Turns out the poor mare had a slipped disk.
Definately work a 2nd opinion from a specialist.

 

[pebblemania]

I have voted for pain option and agree - most horses only react that way as a pain or fear (flight) response although you do have to consider the option that a horse can just be strong willed and not see the rider as herd leader etc etc I'm not into parelli either but you can see clearly in a field that there is a herd leader so that theory is logical and works for me (monty roberts)

I have a gelding that has been retired for 10 years just because he was dangerous to ride. there was absolutely nothing wrong with him then and nothing wrong with him now (I have all manner of receipts to prove it) It cost me an absolute fortune to find out he was perfectly healthy just had an aversion to being ridden! Some horses are simply just that way inclined every so often there is one where you have to think no messing about leg on and grit teeth!

 

[brown tack]

I had a horse that had back pain, and in my opion it can be managed but never go away, like our own backs.
My horse would have flare ups about 4-7 months apart, and each time he flew me I ended up badly hurt. It cost my a utter fortune to maintain him and I think I did crack it. But it took a reg vet checks, psyo, saddle fittings, lunge and hill work.

He's gone to a hunting home now where he has the best care for him and a groom at his beck and call all day, so far so good and no issues, but he has a much better frame and top line and we've beaten the stress which didn't help with his issues as he tense up.

 

[Lady La La]

So what do others think when tackling similar issues? Is it a Parelli 'trait' not to consider physical causes for anything that goes wrong?.

But she has considered possible 'physical causes' by consulting a vet and a chiro. Both say the horse is sound...

If I had an issue similar to the above with my horse, and the vet and chiro had both ruled out any physical problems, then yes, I would be looking at tack/temprement/schooling.

 

[Spring Feather]

I didn't vote. Without watching a horse ridden over a period of time, getting a "feel" for it's personality and seeing how it interacts with other horses and people I don't think any of us who haven't met this horse can say for sure. Gut instinct, sixth sense, intuition or whatever you want to call it along with actual physical and visual evidence cannot be figured out on paper, it needs to be seen, felt. The horse in question (IMO) could be reacting to any number of outside influences. It could be pain, it could be poor handling skills or it could be high spirits.

 

[YasandCrystal]

But she has considered possible 'physical causes' by consulting a vet and a chiro. Both say the horse is sound...

If I had an issue similar to the above with my horse, and the vet and chiro had both ruled out any physical problems, then yes, I would bOPe looking at tack/temprement/schooling.

OP states that vet used is NOT horse specific.

I would say get a good horse vet out to eliminate pain.

 

[Wagtail]

Bit unfair eh? I am by no means a parelli follower (in fact I cant think of anything worse) but you have clearly stated that both vet and chiro think she is sound!

If I had a tenner for every time a vet found nothing wrong with a horse and several months down the line we find there is...

 

[Dancing Queen]

Hi, I couldnt vote on the poll, because It could be any one of those 3 options.

I would think initally its a pain issue somewhere - could be something as simple as saddle pinching, or girth galls.

Get the Vet would be my advice. x

 

[Wagtail]

Pain.
My mare who was PTS would just suddenly have bucking fits.
Vets told me I was paranoid, chiropractor never picked it up. Turns out the poor mare had a slipped disk.
Definately work a 2nd opinion from a specialist.

Yes, I agree. I always feel I can spot a horse in pain a mile off. Spotted it in my own but nothing found for a whole year by vets and physios. But now...jeez you name it, he has it, now that I finally got fed up with the 'can't find anything wrong' and asked for specific xrays.

 

[fburton]

Purposely trying to throw the rider you say? Well then that's disrespect, isn't it? So... a respect issue, definitely....







...not! Forced to choose one as the most likely, I chose pain.

 

[Wagtail]

I have voted for pain option and agree - most horses only react that way as a pain or fear (flight) response although you do have to consider the option that a horse can just be strong willed and not see the rider as herd leader etc etc I'm not into parelli either but you can see clearly in a field that there is a herd leader so that theory is logical and works for me (monty roberts)

I have a gelding that has been retired for 10 years just because he was dangerous to ride. there was absolutely nothing wrong with him then and nothing wrong with him now (I have all manner of receipts to prove it) It cost me an absolute fortune to find out he was perfectly healthy just had an aversion to being ridden! Some horses are simply just that way inclined every so often there is one where you have to think no messing about leg on and grit teeth!

I have to agree that there is a small minority of horses that do throw their riders just because they can. I had one myself. He only did it once a year or so, but he would buck from walk, drop his shoulder and step back. No one stood a chance. I finally stopped riding him when he was 13 when I landed on my head and realised that even if someone had counted me down to that buck, I couldn't have sat it. It was like being fired out of a canon and him dodging out of the way so you had nowhere to land on him! He was fully checked out and nothing ever found. But this horse I am talking about has not been checked by any equine experts, just a general vet and a physio.

 

[amandap]

I'm a long way from a 'good' and 'experienced' horse person but I have observed over the years how much my management and feeding has affected my horses and from reading much stuff on forums such as this I have come to believe that so much of horse non compliance behaviour is down to these things in the end.
Much pain whether acute or more rumbling in the back ground is, I believe, down to very basic feeding and management issues. Yes of course horses are abused or inconsistently trained causing them to behave erratically or even dangerously but if the basics aren't suiting that horse then nothing will be resolved for the horse.
Just my view.

 

[soulfull]

I didn't vote. Without watching a horse ridden over a period of time, getting a "feel" for it's personality and seeing how it interacts with other horses and people I don't think any of us who haven't met this horse can say for sure. Gut instinct, sixth sense, intuition or whatever you want to call it along with actual physical and visual evidence cannot be figured out on paper, it needs to be seen, felt. The horse in question (IMO) could be reacting to any number of outside influences. It could be pain, it could be poor handling skills or it could be high spirits.

could not have put it better.

Owner has gone down the route of pain, whether the 2 people she consulted were wrong is a different thing BUT she has tried!!

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I didn't vote: difficult without knowing (a) the rider's ability (b) the horse's temperament (c) feeding/turn-out regime (d) previous training (or lack of it, OR bad experiences in the past) (e) pain issues such as teeth/bitting, back etc

I'd be inclined, if it were mine, to have a good look again at all options, starting with pain, which is the most obvious. Get another vet who specialises in horses in; also equine dental specialist, another chiro from a different discipline, plus an experienced trainer who can look at the whole horse/rider partnership afresh and maybe from a different perspective ........ and see what all that throws up. Oh and a good saddle fitter too. Everything basically.

THEN I'd look again at the situation and consider options. Perhaps this horse & rider partnership just aren't suited? Perhaps the horse is too green and needs some more groundwork?

I've nothing against Parelli, BUT I've seen a lot of people throw good money after bad with it: what I've seen is a kind of mantra that if you "progress through the levels" then all will be well. Never mind what sort of horse & rider combination you've got, never mind what previous bad experiences the horse has had, all will be well if you just "progress through the Parelli levels". Well I'm sorry but that's a big bite for me to swallow!!

Sometimes, with some horses who are just being plain naughty, it just needs a good whacking with a whip if you can feel it getting its head down to buck!! Sometimes there are, as OP suggests, pain issues which need addressing.

But personally think Parelli might be a waste of time & money here. You'll start off with a horse that bucks and finish with a horse that still bucks. Just my opinion.

 

[siennamum]

I didn't vote because I don't think these scenarios are generally an either or situation.

I think horses rarely go to the extreme of trying to get rider off without progressing through a long list of warning signals from tail swishing to humped back and this can take months. An exception would be a young horse which has been incorrectly educated, or had a fright, but those don't really apply here.

Invariably this insubordination stem from discomfort I think. Sometimes poor training or a bad experience, but whatever the cause when the horse starts to realise that it can move/intimidate the rider and so avoid work/discomfort it becames habitual, and then it get's very hard to sort out whether it's pain related or learned bad behaviour.

In your friends case I would look at everything properly, teeth, back, tack and management. I would reeducate horse, before the behaviour becomes a habit, but would do so properly, rather than with a system which appears not to be working for this horse & rider.

 

[Lady La La]

OP states that vet used is NOT horse specific.

I would say get a good horse vet out to eliminate pain.

I understand that, and I agree, but wasn't the intention of the OP to question whether being into Parelli affects how this person deals with her horses bucking fits? It seemed like the OP was asking 'Does being into Parelli mean that the person in question doesn't consider pain/physical problems before looking at the behavioural issues of her bucking horse?'
... That's how I read the post, anyway - and no, clearly it doesn't as the person in question consulted a vet and a physio before moving on to look at the other options. The fact she could have consulted a better/horse specific vet is by the by in this particular instance.

 

[team barney]

Sounds like pain to me, either a back issue or possibly hoof related, it makes me think it maybe hoof/leg related as the trouble occurs when trotting on a hard surface. I would be very surprised if it isn't pain related.

 

[be positive]

I would first want to rule out pain,a horse vet rather than a general vet. The horse has a weak topline if it is being worked correctly there may be an underlying reason for this.

Leadership the parelli way seems to me to be more about the horse losing its natural flight instinct to the extent that it is totally submissive,thus unable to make any real choices of its own,other than to do as its leader wants.

I have been sent a few horses that have had behavioural problems,they have had saddles/back issues and with correct treatment and work have come right.

I like a horse,especially a competition horse, to retain a level of independence they need to be able think for themselves not be totally reliant on the rider in my opinion.

A horse is generally reactive it rarely thinks ahead and I dont think that they have a day when they think I am going to buck the rider off and see what happens,its just not the way they are.