palamino?

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Thank you! In the case I am thinking of, the sire is chestnut, but with one bay parent and one chestnut. The dam is black, from two black parents. But of the dam's black parents, one is grey x bay and the other is bay x chestnut.

Any ideas on what this pair might produce, or would one have to get the sire/dam/both tested?

The mare owner does not mind what colour the foal comes out, and nor do I - just curious!

The foal is due next spring...
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There is a possibility that the black dam carries the red gene because her granddam/sire although black will always have inherited one chestnut gene from its parent, the bay x chestnut. There is also a possibility that the grey's birth colour was chestnut and there it too can contribute to that factor.

Because the stallion has a bay (= black + agouti) parent it is possible that he has inherited the Agouti.

Without testing the only way to try and work out what the possibilities are is by a matter of elimination. Try to find out what colours the stallion has given on black mares, what colours that grandparents on both sides have given.
 
Yes!!! Ive been to see him today. He is beautiful! Do you have any pics?
I spoke to Sam and she says I would be lucky to get a palomino (or unlucky depending on which way you look at it!) but I would be thrilled to get a dun/buckskin.
I think I will get her tested if I decide to go ahead.
Cheers for that!
 
I want her!!!!
She's gorgeous. What an amazing colour. Thanks for that, its all good to know. It will either be blondie or a hairy connemara, Im erring towards the flashy dressage horse (no surprise there then)
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exactly foxtrot, if she doesn't have the red gene, then you are down to probably a 50/50 chance of buckskin or bay. I think a buckskin hunter would be absolutely fine in the show ring as most of the judges will assume it has some good old Irish Connemara blood in it. They only dont like 'modern' or unusual things - like those filthy warmbloods
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I think you are being optimistc there. I once asked a hunter judge why she did not put a super dun mare (several times champion at early BWBS shows) champion instead of reserve behind a rather ordinary bay horse and her reason was 'The colour dun stands out so that if you dall off in the hunting field everyone will know that it was your horse and that it was you that fell off. That is why a bay -- preferably one with no markings -- is always better as it is indistinguishable from a lot of others'! That just about says it all for me as far as hunter judging is concerned except that she added 'The same goes for coloured horses too of course'. <sigh>

BTW, I had one of KarynK's DNA tests done on Rin and it was well worth the money. He has the chestnut gene, the creme gene and the black and tan one and can never sire a black horse, which is very useful as he will be standing alongside a black horse of the same breed but totally different bloodlines next year so they will complement each other very well :-)
 
Some describe a black as a horse that is agouti negative, as the distribution of the black hairs is throughout the coat, however these true blacks can carry the red factor. We have a black tobiano mare agouti negative, however she also has the red gene.

Our homozygous black stallion is however hetrozygous agouti (darkbay), so he can produce bay offspring to chestnut mares.


A truly black horse is a HOMOZYGOUS BLACK, AGOUTI NEGATIVE and CANNOT pass on a chestnut gene - AS IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE!

As you say "Our homozygous black stallion is however hetrozygous agouti (darkbay), so he can produce bay offspring to chestnut mares." - SO HE ISN'T A BLACK - HE IS BAY whether it is bright/light/mahogany or dark. It would be much more credible in your advertising to say that your stallion does not carry the RED FACTOR as opposed to advertising him as a black stallion......

HOWEVER, even if your stallion was chestnut - he would still be a lovely boy.
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edited to say - sorry I couln't get the italics quote to work for me!
 
I didn't say he was a black horse
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I said he is "homozygous black", and in brackets that he is darkbay........
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A truly black horse is a HOMOZYGOUS BLACK, AGOUTI NEGATIVE and CANNOT pass on a chestnut gene - AS IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE!

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I would have thought so too, however many people use the term differently.

Black Horse


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Thus a black horse has at least one copy of the functional, dominant "E" allele and two copies of the non-functional, recessive "a" allele. A mature true black horse can be safely said to possess at least one dominant extension gene (EE or Ee); and has no other dominant genes (such as agouti, gray, or any of the dilution factors) that further modify color.

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This is why the mare mentioned is described as being a Black tobiano (piebald), despite carrying red......... there is no other way to describe it.
 
My reply was deliberately simplified to assist people new to this understanding the answer to the question what is possible breeding a black to a chestnut? and in the example I am talking purely about genotype

I would never even attempt to try and attribute most equine coat colours from an isolated phonotypical standpoint it is virtually impossible, and very many eminent people have gotten egg on their face trying Geneticist GUERTZ got it horribly wrong lumping Buckskins in with duns (So there you have it Cruiseline the root of all evil)!!.

The best you can do is look at back pedigree and guess via elimination, but if there is a grey you are completely stumped. Blacks are notoriously difficult to tell with fading blacks that show brown hairs being theorised to be dominant over jet blacks, but you have to ask if a fading black is in fact a very dark brown?

Please note that the old Agouti test carried out by biotech cannot differentiate between Bay Brown or Black and Tan, so describing a horse with this gene as Bay is genetically incorrect. You cannot currently tell if a horse is genetically bay by looking at it, it does not matter how dark it is. A Typical bay and a typical black and tan have not been identified as yet, but now the tests have been started we should soon know. The typical “Bay” in my signature is homozygous black and tan AtAt (sorry cant write it properly as this does not support superscript), one of which she got from her chestnut mother the other from her grey father.

“In the scenario mentioned a heterozygous agouti/ homozygous black can produce bays if bred to a chestnut mare” I wasn’t talking mares and stallions only gene combinations the sex of each parent is irrelevant? But I said if you breed a homozygous or heterozygous black to a heterozygous agouti carrying chestnut it will be in the ratio of 50/50 black to bay/brown IF that offspring inherits a black gene?

Re your stallion he will also produce bay/brown offspring to black mares as he has an agouti gene himself, so he doesn’t need a chestnut mare?

Agouti would in itself be recessive to black if the dominant blacks as reported in Frisians (theorised K gene locus in dogs) are found to be substantiated!!
 
Can't help on the showing side, but a good horse is a good horse whatever it's colour. The only disadvantage I can see to having a palomino is that they show the dirt more!

My bay mare (grey sire) has been bred to two palominos, 2007 foal is the 2nd picture, 2008 foal the 4th and 5th, 2009 foal...?

So, how would I tell if my palomino stallion (chestnut dam) carries the agouti gene? His three foals this year were a bay (bay dam) and two chestnut paints (chestnut paint dam who was by a palomino paint) A chestnut mare lost a cream colour foal at 10 months.

Hello Colour Fan by the way
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You do like the difficult ones !!

Oh gosh that’s complicated, you have to turn detective and training in Cluedo helps!

Problem is grey hides all since their birth colour or that of their grey parent is rarely recorded, so basically your boy a chestnut can only be ee (EeEe technical) for the Extension series as if it had an E gene it would not be a chestnut The problem lies in guessing the A series which with this information you can’t. You can ask if a chestnut (Stallion as they have more offspring) has ever sired a bay from proven black mares but then you would know that one!!!!
If he has sired a lot and not produced a bay then you can guess no agouti, if the offspring that were not chestnut were all bay/brown then you can guess homozygous agouti.

At the moment for him we have ee and for his Agouti ??

With the dam if she is a black you know she cannot have agouti otherwise she would not be black. But chestnut can hide for many generations so you have to say she is E? aa

If she has had a chestnut foal you know she is Ee. So on that basis if she has EE (homozygous black) you will certainly get a black pigmented horse but it may inherit a A from dad so it could end up Bay/Brown.

If the mare is Ee then you have a 50/50 chance of a chestnut or a black but of the black it may turn out of be a bay/brown!

Test them if you are curious I do, but then with some of mine you never know what base colour they are as they hide it!!!
 
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I didn't say he was a black horse I said he is "homozygous black", and in brackets that he is darkbay........

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Interested to read your reply Opie, is this the stallion you are speaking about in your signature?

As on your website you have him down as being a "Black", on another advert I have seen him down as being a "Black Bay" (interesting hedge your bet). On "stallionsonline", you have him down as "black". On "adhorse" you have him down as "Homozygous black".
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So is he a dark bay and does not carry the red factor? If so then perhaps that is the easiest way of saying it, as above you are saying a variety of different things.
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As a horse is either black or bay, cannot be both.
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Eeek! (No, that's not a new colour gene - it's my poor befuddled brain freaking out!)

Karyn at the risk of imposing too much on your kindness, how about if I give you the pedigrees of both horses, so at least you can see what colours are in their genetic make-up further back?

The chestnut stallion is: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/h+tobago

The black mare is: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/my+midnite+dancer

The stallion only had his first season at stud last year, so there's only one crop of foals to go on. The vast majority of these foals are chestnut, from chestnut mares. Two chestnuts from bay mares. Two bays from bay mares. One bay from a grey mare. Two palominos from cremello mares. One Fox Dun from a Mouse Dun mare.

I'm not sure about the black mare's foals. She has definitely had a black colt from a black stallion, and a black filly from another black stallion. I don't think she's been bred to any other colour before (but not sure).

Is this any help at all? Please don't feel you have to devote any more time to this - I should probably just have my stallion tested!
 
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I didn't say he was a black horse I said he is "homozygous black", and in brackets that he is darkbay........

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Interested to read your reply Opie, is this the stallion you are speaking about in your signature?

As on your website you have him down as being a "Black", on another advert I have seen him down as being a "Black Bay" (interesting hedge your bet). On "stallionsonline", you have him down as "black". On "adhorse" you have him down as "Homozygous black".
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So is he a dark bay and does not carry the red factor? If so then perhaps that is the easiest way of saying it, as above you are saying a variety of different things.
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As a horse is either black or bay, cannot be both.
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Well, whatever colour he is (and I'm sure Opie would never intentionally mis-describe this), he is an incredibly beautiful horse: http://www.solaris-sport-horses.co.uk/Amoureux2008/

To me he looks such a very, very dark bay that the description Black Bay makes sense aesthetically, even if it's not technically correct!
 
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... , so at least you can see what colours are in their genetic make-up further back?

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The chestnut stallion is: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/h+tobago

His grandsire Padrons Psyche carries the Agouti gen (has had bay foals out of black mares). I have a sneaking suspicion that his sire Psytadel homozygous is for Agouti, this would translate into the chestnut stallion having at least one Agouti gen (ee A?).

The black mare is: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/my+midnite+dancer

If the mare is black then she is E? aa.
 
Just had a quick look like I say A's are very hard to work out especially with chestnuts and there are a lot of greys back there which hide everything! Then there are a lot of blacks out there that arent genetically black!

Please forgive me not too hot on Arab peds but a couple of the blacks in the back pedigree look decidly Bay /Brown in the photos but we already know the mare (bet you are looking forward to that one she is very nice) is has no agouti (aa) and she has according to all breeds bred 4 blacks. My Raven however would be Ee as there is a chestnut parent, the info is a bit bitty but MS Rafiq doesn't appear to have had any chestnuts so could well be EE, so on that basis the mare has a good chance of being EE, so you have a good chance that the foal will be black based too!

Like I say A's are difficult as you only need 1 to get a bay and if a horse is chestnut you don't know what it has! But you would only need to do that one test on your boy as we know as a chestnut he is ee. It;s difficult to tell at this early stage in his stud career and the Bay mares have a bay gene and the grey mare would have at the very least had one E if not bay/ brown herself.

Like I say I think that the genotype aa is rare in certain breeds and as he has a lot of bay in his immediate back pedigree even behind the chestnuts it is likely that he has one or two himself, if it's 1 you might well get a black from the mare if it's two no. My bet would be AA (sorry)
 
Thanks again - fascinating, and very kind of you to go to all this trouble!

Sorry - I had forgotten one could look up the mare's progeny on allbreeds - I should have done this myself.

To be honest I don't much mind what colour this foal is - and the breeder doesn't mind either. I'm pretty sure this is the first time she's bred the mare to a non-black stallion, but she chose my boy for qualities other than his colour.

The mare is indeed very nice! She's already had one baby that went Top Ten at the World Championships, so that will be a hard act to follow!!

I think I might go ahead and get the boy tested anyway, though, just out of curiosity, and so I can be a bit more helpful when breeders are wondering what colour they will get...

Thanks again!
 
I will PM you the address of the company in the USA that now do the test that can separate black and tan from bay as that would tell you a little more. I am just waiting for my last result.

Unfortunately you could have got in on the survey as Arab is a permitted outcross for Appaloosas but it closed last month!
 
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foxtrot - I'm so sorry - only just realised that I was hi-jacking your thread a bit with these questions!
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No worries Htobago...Ive learned loads from this thread!.......now go get your own post
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