Panic rearing, did I handle it right?

saltpetres

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Hi lovely forumites! I've made a few threads about my lease boy, but I'll recap -

I've had my own horse since I was 11, unfortunately had to let him go a few years ago due to poor health on my part. My health is finally on the up and up, so I decided it was time for me to ride again. I've lost a great deal of confidence through my illness, so I was after something calm and sensible, and I found a perfect gelding to lease.
19yo 3/4 TB 1/4 Clydie, very poor condition when I got him (after last loaner neglected him, not his owner), I've had him since about last April. Was told he was a very quiet schoolmaster/allrounder, ex-eventer. He's the sweetest boy, a real darling - not the slightest bit of malice in him, but he's very very nervy and spooky, although has settled down HEAPS since I've had him. I certainly wouldn't call him quiet. He spooks at a lot of things, but if I give him time to think about whatever's scared him, he's usually fine. I've spent months getting his health right (he's still having treatment for an old injury that was never treated and healed badly), he's looking fantastic at the moment, and we're finally getting out and about, we've joined a riding club which is lots of fun.

I've had a few issues with him panicking under saddle - some things he just can't handle and he goes straight to instinct, he's bolted off with me a few times, but it's only lasted about 20 seconds once the initial blind panic has gone and I've pulled him up, although I came off the first time as he swerved and I wasn't expecting it at all.

This morning I went for a hack with some friends, and we came across a paddock of alpacas, which I understand are basically armageddon to horses. I knew it would be a challenge. I had him standing quiet, just looking and thinking about it, doing fine, taking them in, when the herd of horses in the paddock opposite decided to take off, and he decided they must be running from the terrifying alpacas, and he just panicked. Tried to bolt but I had him tight, and with the forward motion blocked, so he tried to go up...reasonable instinct I guess. I pulled him round tight and he just circled and circled like a dog chasing its tail, every time I'd try to let him out of the spin to go forward, he'd try to rear and I'd circle him again. He didn't try to get me off I don't think, just didn't know what to do with himself. He wouldn't calm down after me trying for probably three minutes of half-rears and shuddering panicked spins, so I jumped off.

He didn't stop cantering in circles and rearing with me on the ground, but I was able to direct his spins past the alpacas and horses and after about ten minutes he settled a bit so I walked him on until he was calm enough for me to get back on. He was drenched in sweat and had been trembling that whole time. The rest of the ride was lovely, just the usual little spooks.

I had no idea what to do when it happened as my last horse was a very naughty b*****r, but very confident and I trusted him 100%. Today I just didn't know what else to try, I've never had to deal with a totally panicked horse for such an extended time before and I was just wondering what to do in that situation? It ended pretty well, considering what could have happened, he could have had me off, or just run straight through me once I got off, but he didn't. He tried to listen to me but just couldn't control his fear.

I want to be prepared because I'm sure it won't be the last time this happens. He's such a good boy, he tries hard and I love him to bits. I don't want to let him down and give up taking him places because I'm nervous (bleddy TERRIFIED tbh, rearing is my kryptonite. I don't know how I was so confident as a kid), but he's the complete opposite of my last horse and I have a lot to learn! All tips, ideas, help of any sort massively welcomed <3

P.S. sorry about the essay :o
 
At 19 you would expect him to have wised up a little. All I can suggest is to go back to basics and do a **** load of bomb proofing and confidence building but at 19 I'm not sure how set in his ways he is going to be. Have you tried any herbal remedies or magox or anything?
 
At 19 you would expect him to have wised up a little. All I can suggest is to go back to basics and do a **** load of bomb proofing and confidence building but at 19 I'm not sure how set in his ways he is going to be. Have you tried any herbal remedies or magox or anything?

Absolutely agreed. I expected/was assured that he was quiet and very experienced, which sounded perfect for what I needed. You'd think he ought to have seen pretty much everything at his age! However I think that possibly he's been schooled endlessly rather than hacked out, as his previous owner was a very competitive eventer, and he sure acts like he's not been out much. He's on a general mineral and vitamin supplement that contains magnesium, but it might not be enough, especially because he's a massive stress-sweater and he's probably sweating it all out again. I'll pick some up tomorrow. I had him on camomile a few months ago, but it didn't seem to help. Might try again though!

With the bombproofing, I've tried a few things like flappy plastic/umbrellas/waving bags on sticks around him, and I can get him totally used to it by the end of the session, then by the next time he meets the same thing, he seems to forget he's ever seen it and we have to start again. For example - I had to desensitise him to his fly mask every single day for at least a week when I first got it, and if I don't put it on for a few days, we have to desensitise again. Also I have a set of small clippers, takes me a good five minutes to get near him with them every time I use them, even though I've used them about ten times on him now. He's an odd bod.
 
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I think you handled that pretty well! You both made it home ok! Even with the best will in the world you can't de-sensitise them to everything, there will always be something that can give them a fright. What you can try is anything that will help give him confidence in you; so yes groundwork will help, also I found vocal cues help my boy; he's not spooky as such but can be very excitable so on the lunge, as well as voice aids for walk, trot, canter etc, I've got some growls and some calming tones etc that I can then use when I'm aboard that tell him to 'stop being a prat' or 'calm down its fine'. If I were you though I'd also consider his history; neglect and a badly healed injury could have led to ulcers (I know that's the go-to cause for almost any unwanted behaviour a horse displays at the moment, but I would bear it in mind). Good luck x
 
I would have a good equine vet check him over, I am thinking eyesight and ulcers, I would put him on Feedmark Steady up for a month.
I would wear a back protector, and a skullcap, and a running martingale, keeping a finger in the neckstrap when trotting. Do lots of gridwork and tiny jump courses to sharpen up your reactions. He may not be perfect, but seems to me you are coping pretty well. Agree with talk, it astounds me how few people use this, I used to HAVE to sing to my spooker when he was newly backed. I often kept a good grip in his mane, which was very thick, and scratched his withers and neck..... distraction..... I came off a few times, he was very sharp, but also safe if that makes sense, he just went to find a bit of grass to nibble, and it did not seem to bother him once we were re-united.
Cut out all sugars and cereals
 
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The previous loaner kept this horse underweight - in other words he would feel weak and without energy. Now he is feeling better he is no doubt reverting to earlier behaviours. At his age [ and we have 1 similar ,but O H rode him not me] he will be hard to change,say with prfesssional rebacking etc - and monetarily it wouldnt be worth it.
Do you really want to persevere with this horse- that you dont even own? Are you prepared to fall off/get hurt/lose confidence? If you are young and bold ,then you may wish to take the risk! You did do very well when he has panicked ,but yes, he will do it again.
In my old age I ve decided no horse is worth risking my health for , and there are plenty of horses out there that would be a safer ride.
 
I think you handled that pretty well! You both made it home ok! Even with the best will in the world you can't de-sensitise them to everything, there will always be something that can give them a fright. What you can try is anything that will help give him confidence in you; so yes groundwork will help, also I found vocal cues help my boy; he's not spooky as such but can be very excitable so on the lunge, as well as voice aids for walk, trot, canter etc, I've got some growls and some calming tones etc that I can then use when I'm aboard that tell him to 'stop being a prat' or 'calm down its fine'. If I were you though I'd also consider his history; neglect and a badly healed injury could have led to ulcers (I know that's the go-to cause for almost any unwanted behaviour a horse displays at the moment, but I would bear it in mind). Good luck x

Thanks, Mrs G! I totally agree with voice, I talk to him a lot and it usually helps, but not in panic mode. He visibly relaxes when I say "good boy!" when he's done well, he really does try to please. He hates disappointing me, he gets big frowny eyes when he knows he's done something wrong. He's perfect with voice controls on the lunge, too.

I would have a good equine vet check him over, I am thinking eyesight and ulcers, I would put him on Feedmark Steady up for a month.
I would wear a back protector, and a skullcap, and a running martingale, keeping a finger in the neckstrap when trotting. Do lots of gridwork and tiny jump courses to sharpen up your reactions. He may not be perfect, but seems to me you are coping pretty well. Agree with talk, it astounds me how few people use this, I used to HAVE to sing to my spooker when he was newly backed. I often kept a good grip in his mane, which was very thick, and scratched his withers and neck..... distraction..... I came off a few times, he was very sharp, but also safe if that makes sense, he just went to find a bit of grass to nibble, and it did not seem to bother him once we were re-united.
Cut out all sugars and cereals

Thank you for these suggestions, they're great. My riding club was actually teasing me the other day about how much I talk to him! But it really helps us both, he's much better when he's focussed on me. I always ride with a neckstrap, especially because he has no mane (fieldmate got a bit hungry I think!) but it's never my instinct to grab on to it! I end up forgetting it's there when something goes wrong, I just try to control my horse :o


The previous loaner kept this horse underweight - in other words he would feel weak and without energy. Now he is feeling better he is no doubt reverting to earlier behaviours. At his age [ and we have 1 similar ,but O H rode him not me] he will be hard to change,say with prfesssional rebacking etc - and monetarily it wouldnt be worth it.
Do you really want to persevere with this horse- that you dont even own? Are you prepared to fall off/get hurt/lose confidence? If you are young and bold ,then you may wish to take the risk! You did do very well when he has panicked ,but yes, he will do it again.
In my old age I ve decided no horse is worth risking my health for , and there are plenty of horses out there that would be a safer ride.

He's actually gotten calmer and steadier with feeling better, but now I'm riding more, there are just more opportunities for things to happen. I actually agree with you a lot, he's not at all what I wanted or what I was told I was getting. I'm youngish, but not a risk taker, and not at all confident really! I really just wanted a quiet old fella to get back into the swing of things, and I have not got that, but his owner has no feed on her property and way too many horses so she'd want to get him out on loan again and I do not trust her judgement of loaners at all! He deserves better. I know it's not really my responsibility to worry about the decisions his owner makes, but he could also hurt someone else if he does this with a less experienced person, especially as she described him as laid back and a schoolmaster...well, I'm learning a lot, but not what I wanted to learn!

But...he's not doing it on purpose and he's not mean, he's a real gentleman at all other times. I don't really know what to do.

I'm wondering what it is that makes him perfect. He sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Why put yourself at risk like this?

He's not perfect. And he's not perfect for me at all. I meant that what he was described as originally sounded perfect for me, but I know he isn't that - however, he has a LOT of education under his belt, and I got him to get back into jumping and take dressage lessons. I'd be hard pressed to find a lease horse with anywhere near his level of education (or...the education I've been told he has, I haven't had a chance to use it yet). So no, he's not what I wanted, he's too flipping big (he stands 16.1, not 15.3), too nervous, too everything, but he's not the slightest bit malicious and I feel like I should give him a proper chance. If he gets too dangerous, I will have to let him go. I know I probably should anyway at this point, but he really is a sweet horse.
 
As said before, cut out all sugar and starch. Increase the mag ox and salt in his diet. While it seems logical to let them look at stuff, some horses respond better to being ridden on strongly past scarey stuff. If I had let my old boy stop and look, we wouldn't have gotten very far. Practice this on known routes, get him really going forward, sing loudly and ignore the monsters. As in working trot. It helps if you can turn his head slightly away from the offending item. A hunting breastplate is an idea, they have a strap just in front of the pommel. Good luck.
 
Has he had a senior horse type health check including his eyes if not this is your start point .

He hasn't, he's had a regular check up from the local vet, and they seemed to think he was pretty good apart from a melanoma under his tail he's had for ages (he's grey) and his old injury. We don't have dedicated horse vets nearby, but I might get some to travel up and give him a proper going-over.

As said before, cut out all sugar and starch. Increase the mag ox and salt in his diet. While it seems logical to let them look at stuff, some horses respond better to being ridden on strongly past scarey stuff. If I had let my old boy stop and look, we wouldn't have gotten very far. Practice this on known routes, get him really going forward, sing loudly and ignore the monsters. As in working trot. It helps if you can turn his head slightly away from the offending item. A hunting breastplate is an idea, they have a strap just in front of the pommel. Good luck.

Thanks :) If it's something only a bit scary and he's looky but not trembly, I'll push him on and he's great, he listens to me. If it's something VERY scary, pushing him on makes him panic, so I have to pick my battles I think! He seriously hates disobeying, I think that stresses him out more because he wants to move on like I ask but he just can't handle it.
 
He sounds like the mare I tolerated for two months. Wasn't doing me any favors to keep her and was not going to do her any cause I got too afraid to ride her.
 
TBH, the owner might be blaming the previous loaner for the state he was in when he came to you but I feel that the owner should have taken responsibility for getting him back to full health before passing him on again. There are plenty of ways to make sure that you have enough feed available for the horses you own, including making sure that you have room to bring home at any point a loaned out horse.

I would send him back home and look for something more suitable for *your* needs. This horse could well damage either your health or your confidence, or both. And I am pretty sure that if he gets you off and gets injured himself as a result you will, wrongly, blame yourself.

Please let the owner take responsibility for her own horse. You will find one far more suited to you.
 
What's he like if you get off and lead him past?

no change whatsoever, exactly the same behaviour :(

TBH, the owner might be blaming the previous loaner for the state he was in when he came to you but I feel that the owner should have taken responsibility for getting him back to full health before passing him on again. There are plenty of ways to make sure that you have enough feed available for the horses you own, including making sure that you have room to bring home at any point a loaned out horse.

I would send him back home and look for something more suitable for *your* needs. This horse could well damage either your health or your confidence, or both. And I am pretty sure that if he gets you off and gets injured himself as a result you will, wrongly, blame yourself.

Please let the owner take responsibility for her own horse. You will find one far more suited to you.

This is very sensible and I really really want to take your advice very much, and I know I should, I just would feel so guilty giving up on him even though it's stupid and not my responsibility. But yes, I'd hate for him to get away from me when he's in that state, there's no way it would end well. I'd never forgive myself if he ended up on a main road or something! I just...want him to be happy and looked after, he deserves that, and I don't think he'll get it if he goes back. I'd keep him as a paddock companion, but I don't have the budget to have two horses, and I really want one I can ride :( ugh
 
My chestnut mare reacted the same way to alpacas when she first met them and I've also had the alpacas on one side of the lane and galloping horses on the other. I used to call it 'running the gauntlet' when people asked which hacking route I was taking (there's also a naughty sheepdog just beyond them). Everyone knew where I meant without having to explain it, I suspect that a lot of local horse riders had exciting moments on the route.

To start with I would dismount to lead her past as that was safest with my mare (push on strongly when she's frightened of something ahead and she'll rear). She did improve dramatically with training, but that training basically consisted of me getting fed up of her being a big girl's blouse about it and leading her up and down the lane until she got over it. It was time consuming but did help loads and meant that I could stay on board safely and she'd go past without any issues.

You need to decide if this horse is right for you. Can you safely work through problems like this or not?
 
We had a little horse that used to panic like this, he was a rescue and had certainly had some bad experiences in his past. It was as if occasionally something flipped a switch and nothing could get through to him. Over time he got to know and trust us and the behaviour gradually disappeared - he was always sharp and could be spooky, but never set out actually to hurt his rider - just as well, as he was ridden most of the time by a disabled rider
 
My chestnut mare reacted the same way to alpacas when she first met them and I've also had the alpacas on one side of the lane and galloping horses on the other. I used to call it 'running the gauntlet' when people asked which hacking route I was taking (there's also a naughty sheepdog just beyond them). Everyone knew where I meant without having to explain it, I suspect that a lot of local horse riders had exciting moments on the route.

To start with I would dismount to lead her past as that was safest with my mare (push on strongly when she's frightened of something ahead and she'll rear). She did improve dramatically with training, but that training basically consisted of me getting fed up of her being a big girl's blouse about it and leading her up and down the lane until she got over it. It was time consuming but did help loads and meant that I could stay on board safely and she'd go past without any issues.

You need to decide if this horse is right for you. Can you safely work through problems like this or not?

they sound like very similar reactions! I mean, alpacas are pretty scary, what with their big horse-eating teeth and all! :D

I hope I can work through it because I do like him a lot. I just haven't dealt with this type of reaction before, and it's not at all what I would have chosen for my return to riding, but I've dealt with plenty of naughty horses, and I didn't feel like I was going to fall off today as I didn't let him full on rear, so didn't become unseated really at all. I just thought it was safer to get off as he was just getting worse and I HATE rearing so thought I'll get off before I can't stop him, and yes, it well and truly scared me, but nothing terrible actually happened in the end. Nobody got hurt. We did deal with it. I hope I dealt with it the right way, I honestly don't know if I was just lucky this time (and that's really why I was asking for advice about what to actually do when it happens) - but if every time it happens I can keep some semblance of control like I mostly did today, then I think we can work through it. I do definitely worry about him getting away from me and onto a road though...shouldn't have watched The Horse Whisperer at an impressionable age :o
 
We had a little horse that used to panic like this, he was a rescue and had certainly had some bad experiences in his past. It was as if occasionally something flipped a switch and nothing could get through to him. Over time he got to know and trust us and the behaviour gradually disappeared - he was always sharp and could be spooky, but never set out actually to hurt his rider - just as well, as he was ridden most of the time by a disabled rider

That's exactly it! It's a brain bypass switch that goes straight to instinct I think. So good to hear that it settled down over time! And that's the other thing, of course he doesn't trust me yet. He trusts me in the paddock most of the time, but not to protect him from terrifying fuzzy creatures with inordinately long eyelashes, especially as I really don't think he's been out much. And if he was neglected at the last place, who knows what else they did to him?
 
I used to regularly ride my horse by himself through Central London (Think Regent Street, Piccadilly Circus, Trafalgar Square and Buckingham Palace). He was 100% with everything and anything including the Giraffes and Wolves when we past London Zoo that was until one Winters day we met a snowman with a carrot nose and a hat! He most certainly did not like the snowman and planted himself and would not move for 10 minutes.
I hope that you can de-sensitise this horse but your safety must come first and if he does not settle down then I would strongly advise you to find another one.
 
I should add that my mare is brilliant with most other things. A few examples of things that she's coped with really well include a steam engine on a narrow lane, a helicopter landing close by, a car with flat tyre being chased by the police, motorway bridges (going both over and under), a swan taking off from under a canal bridge that we were on top of, a herd of deer... so all in all I wouldn't say that being frightened of alpacas means that the horse will always react so dramatically.
 
I think you handled it in the best possible way, sometimes having someone on the ground is more reassuring and obviously less dangerous for you! I'd have done the exact same thing! he was clearly just scared as he seemed to settle down quite quickly once you were past! if he'd have been like that the whole way around I would have thought more of it!

I'm pleased you're not hurt :)
 
I think you handled the situation well. No one was hurt, you were able to get back on, he didn't get away from you. It is very hard when other horses decide to bog off, as then your horse has multiple members of his own species telling him something is up, and one puny (comparatively speaking) human saying everything is fine! The only thing I can think might have helped would have been not stopping t let him look first. My lad is 15 and generally solid, but there are some things (stupid things, like large rocks, signposts, and on one memorable occasion the shadow of his own head) that he's very suspicious of. I find it best to turn his head away slightly, push his shoulder towards the thing he's worried about, and ride positively forward with lots of loud cheerful talking about how lovely the scenery is and what I'm going to have for tea when we get home, and don't give him time to start thinking about it. If it's something a bit more spooky (balloon trapped in hedge rattling about in strong wind) I push harder, grab my neckstrap, jam my heels right down and go for sitting trot, forward, forward, forward all the time.

But then the question is whether you should have to do this at all with a horse you loaned because he sounded perfect for you. It isn't your responsibility to improve him, especially at 19 when it will be damn hard work. But that part is up to you. It depends how much enjoyment you get from the horse in front of you right now, not the one you have been told he has been educated to be, or could be with improvement.
 
Whatever feels right and works for you both is the right thing. I was told by an very well respected trainer that it can take about 7-10 minutes for a horse to evaluate a "scary" thing so trying to force him/her past it can trigger a panic reaction. Unfortunately, as you say, the gallopimg horses signalled danger to your horse so instinct to go with the herd took over.

You need to build up a bond of trust with him, something obviously lacking in his previous home if he was kept short of food. Routine is very important, so he knows when he will be fed, what time you visit to check him over, what time he comes in (if he is stabled) etc. Try groundwork like clicker training or any positive reward based training so he learns to look to you for help. Try and plan "safe" rides to begin with and gradually introduce scary things on different rides.

I don't know how long you have had him, but it can take a while for a horse to settle into new surroundings so patience is the key.

You obviously care a great deal about him so it will be much more rewarding to get him on your side than if you didn't.

Good luck!
 
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But then the question is whether you should have to do this at all with a horse you loaned because he sounded perfect for you. It isn't your responsibility to improve him, especially at 19 when it will be damn hard work. But that part is up to you. It depends how much enjoyment you get from the horse in front of you right now, not the one you have been told he has been educated to be, or could be with improvement.

this is a good point and one I've been thinking about...I want to give him a proper chance, but not to the extent that it's going to be stupidly dangerous for us both. I just have to decide where that line is, I guess!

Whatever feels right and works for you both is the right thing. I was told by an very well respected trainer that it can take about 7-10 minutes for a horse to evaluate a "scary" thing so trying to force him/her past it can trigger a panic reaction. Unfortunately, as you say, the gallopimg horses signalled danger to your horse so instinct to go with the herd took over.

Good luck!

yeah, this is exactly what happened, and I feel like if those horses hadn't taken off so suddenly like that, he'd have thought about it and realised that the alpacas were just like big sheep and couldn't hurt him. We walked within a few metres of three large escaped cows later in the ride, and he didn't bat an eyelid. Wonder why alpacas are so terrifying!

How much turnout does he get and what are you feeding him on?

He's always turned out (I'm in Aus so no weather worries) and he's holding his weight well on grass at the moment because it's still spring, so he's just on enough chaff to fit his supplements in and a bit of grass hay. Some days that he's been working extra hard, I'll pop in a scoop of his senior horse mix, which is micronised barley and lupin based grain mis rather than pellets. It does have the tiniest bit of molasses in it though, according to the bag. His supplements are vitamin and mineral pellets, glucosamine, and he gets devil's claw for a few days after he's had a back treatment, but I don't like to use it much because of the ulcer risk, and he's on turmeric for inflammation.
 
I would have a good equine vet check him over, I am thinking eyesight and ulcers, I would put him on Feedmark Steady up for a month.
I would wear a back protector, and a skullcap, and a running martingale, keeping a finger in the neckstrap when trotting. Do lots of gridwork and tiny jump courses to sharpen up your reactions. He may not be perfect, but seems to me you are coping pretty well. Agree with talk, it astounds me how few people use this, I used to HAVE to sing to my spooker when he was newly backed. I often kept a good grip in his mane, which was very thick, and scratched his withers and neck..... distraction..... I came off a few times, he was very sharp, but also safe if that makes sense, he just went to find a bit of grass to nibble, and it did not seem to bother him once we were re-united.
Cut out all sugars and cereals

I actually bought a running martingale to use on him, because he does a giraffe impression quite a bit, but then I read that it can stop you from doing an effective one rein stop, so I've been too scared to use it on him in case it stops me circling him when he goes to bolt/rear? Do you think it would help or hinder?
 
But then the question is whether you should have to do this at all with a horse you loaned because he sounded perfect for you. It isn't your responsibility to improve him, especially at 19 when it will be damn hard work. But that part is up to you. It depends how much enjoyment you get from the horse in front of you right now, not the one you have been told he has been educated to be, or could be with improvement.

Agree completely. The problem is the horse has no confidence in you - and you can't build it unless YOU are super confident! You MIGHT get there - but the risk of injury is high. The poor chap obviously has a long history and would be best retired - curing a 19 year old isn't going to really appeal to someone super confident and competent to do it.

I sold a really laidback 10 year old to Scotland a few weeks ago. He arrived a bit stressed - and owner became stressed. They both just got worse and I had him back. The day he arrived he was tired after the long trip but the next day he was totally 'normal'. It was a lesson for me - I've always been careful to judge a potential buyer's confidence against the horse - but I made too much allowance in this case for the horse's placid nature.
 
I was thinking about you while I rode my formally mental horse (difference being I own her and I knew what I was buying) yesterday.

I was thinking that if he is truly a schoolmaster over jumps then just do that with him. If that's what attracted you to him, use his strengths. He's 19, he's not going to be easy to sort out now, so if you really want something to hack, then I would consider returning him and getting something safer (doesn't sound like that would be hard as he sounds so dangerous!).

Lastly some things I've done with my horse and some other thoughts:

Unless its blisteringly warm, ride with an exercise sheet. I think this keeps her calmer.

Feed mag ox.

Feed some unmolassed straw chaff while tacking up, I got this tip from my Physio, my horses have adlib hay all the time however straw chaff is harder to digest so it keeps their stomach working while you are riding, it's also going to help mop up any acid that's potentially sloshing about in a nervous horse as well.

Cut out any hard feed, molassed feed (inc those stupid lickit things) etc

Get some lessons. Everyone needs lessons, you just need to find the right person to help you. My jump coach is a very good horseman and often I will come away from my jumping lesson with lots of things which help day to day too.
 
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