Panicking 4 year old

R

Riverrock

Member
Joined
3 April 2015
Messages
13
Visit site
Hi all

Looking some ideas please :)

I have a 4 year old Connie cross that is far too intelligent for his own good! He has been backed, ridden and turned away and is coming back into work now, so currently doing the lunging work as waiting for rider to come.

I am having some issues in tying him up - he knows that he can break through string so does that as soon as he is tied up. So I have been tying him to the ring in order to try and break the habit. I don't leave horse alone when tied to ring other than to go and get tack from tack room so at most alone for 5 mins but horse never appears to panic at this stage, only panics and pulls back at the initial tying up part!

I have tried using a lunge rope and threading it through the ring and standing nearby incase he pulls back but he never does it when you are near to him.

I have tried tying him up in a rope halter so when he pulls back pressure increases and as soon as he stops pulling back the pressure releases - this doesn't help either.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do next - there is no reason for him to panic and is pure naughtiness initially as knows can break the string but when he realises that he can't escape (as tied to ring) he then starts to panic.
Any thoughts? :)
 
they are clever arnt they? I have one. He is very intelligent and now hes 5 hes just reached the stage where I am backing him he has been far too enthusiastic to do a lot with before this year. Your horse is still very much a baby at heart. I would always tie him with breakable string and TBH not leave his side. if he pulls and beaks away just re tie him and stay with him. Once he knows hes ok and safe he will stop doing it. start by just leaving him for a few seconds and build up very very slowly.
 
Too intelligent lol!
But the thing is, he only pulls back at the initial stage of tying up (ie. When I'm still there) and doesn't pull back when I'm not there!

I just don't want to create the habit of him pulling back as he knows this will break the string. The panicking only comes when he realises he isn't tied to string and can't escape by pulling back - he starts off the pulling from naughtiness initially.
 
I am afraid it is very dangerous to tie directly to a ring as one day he could panic and seriously damage himself and another horse or someone else.
You need some expert help from a qualified equine behaviourist.
 
A friend on fb (and an old instructor) used this method for her 4 years old that was taking the mick and wouldn't stand still. It was recommended by a number of people.

Every time your horse does something you don't want turn it in tight circles 10 times then tie back up, if he does it again then turn him 10 times in a tiny circle the other way. Keep repeating until he stops. If he's clever he'll soon realise.
 
I do know it is dangerous to tie to ring hence why asking on here. It is also dangerous at current to tie to string as horse pulls back immediately, breaking it and then could potentially do harm to others once escaped!!

I'm looking for ways of stopping the habit of breaking the string when tied up.

Thank you for the suggestion, but I will not be using an equine behaviourist. I don't think they are any good, especially the ones around me and they tend to be all the bunny huggers and think using a whip is equivalent to murder lol.
 
Tern said:
A friend on fb (and an old instructor) used this method for her 4 years old that was taking the mick and wouldn't stand still. It was recommended by a number of people.

Every time your horse does something you don't want turn it in tight circles 10 times then tie back up, if he does it again then turn him 10 times in a tiny circle the other way. Keep repeating until he stops. If he's clever he'll soon realise.
Click to expand...


Ooh that sounds interesting, might give that a try. Not sure how it will work with tying up though?
 
I have seen this issue dealt with in the old fashioned way ( we will gloss over that ) I have also seen someone use a bicycle inner tube , you put it through the ring then through it's self to form a large loop you then tie the horse to it it was a bit scary the inner tube gets longer as they pull but does not break the horse gave up quickly .
 
Someone once suggested using 2 pieces of twine one longer, one shorter, both tied separately to ring (so 2 loops of twine round ring) but tie horse to both, at first pull horse will break shorter twine but still be attached by longer so if panics can still get away but may break habit!
 
Being tied up causes pressure when they walk to the end of the rope. So far he has learned that pulling back increases the pressure momentarily but continuing to pull back releases the pressure altogether when the string breaks. Now you have tied him to the ring his method of releasing the pressure no longer works. I have no problem with you tying to the ring. Is he obedient to lead? What do you do when he is tied up and panicking and pulling back? I would be taking hold of the rope and asking him to take a step or two forward. Not pulling him or putting more pressure on but your hand on the rope is familiar like when lead. If he does not move forward from your voice give a tap on his ribs, like you would flick him with the end of the rope or a whip when leading. He will soon understand how to step forwards to release the pressure for himself and stop panicking at being tied up.
 
Car tyre inner tube secured to the ring then tie him to the inner tube, it will stretch a bit but not break
 
I had this very same problem with the horse in my avatar - also as a four year old.

Initially I used a tail rope on him, but he then learnt that when the tail rope was on, he couldn't break away.

In the end, I gritted my teeth, tied him up with a rope and halter that wouldn't break, to a ring that wouldn't break and let him figure it out for himself.

I HATE seeing horse pull, but I had run out of ideas. The inner tube produced the hiliarious situation of him trying to figure out how far it would stretch!

My all or nothing solution worked. I hated doing it, but with a clever horse, sometimes you just have to remove all the options.
 
Just what happens when your horse panics? If by panic you mean that he starts kicking out a little and getting agitated and walking back and forth etc, I'd just leave the horse to it. They get over it after a few minutes. You can help the process along by tying to a new place rather than where the behaviour has become established - like a sturdy fence post outside. And put some hay on the ground in advance so the horse has to move around and feels the end of the line but isn't motivated to just run away. Do make sure you can quickly untie if things get dangerous though! If you find you have to untie, you need to be ready to reprimand the horse by making it run around a bit - otherwise it will be rewarded and repeat the unwanted behaviour.

Obviously this is assuming you have no trouble leading... If your horse also has issues when being led, the problem is more fundamental and you need to take a few steps back.

I would also try the suggestion of "punishing" the horse every time it pulls back or panics but only if this first option fails as it's a lot more time consuming and less reliable as it's not stopping the horse from panicking, just motivating it to suppress that. To do this, tie your horse but keep a separate leadrope attached as well, which you keep a hold of. I'd do it with string and as soon as the horse snaps it, lunge around you with lots of activity (you have the leadrope to do this with). You don't need to go around 10 times... Just go around a couple of times, let the horse settle and tie again. Rinse and repeat until the horse stands still and doesn't pull back. When your horse looks even slightly relaxed, untie it. Walk it away, bring it back, tie again, treat, scratch or pat or whatever you like to do as a reward and repeat the whole process. Use a longer leadrope or lunge line to practice from increasingly further away and eventually with you out of sight. You should be able to teach your horse to just stand quietly with the string and never have to move on to the solid tie.

You can also teach your horse to stand still untied... If you have the patience to try this, I can explain how it's done. Then tying will just be a back-up measure as your horse will stand where you left it of its own accord.
 
My first port of call with horses that pull-back is by 'playing fish' with the lunge-line but seen you've already tried this... Have you tried it with a pressure halter/dually on? Have cured many this way from pulling back. My little ex-racer was a puller backer for 3 days until he tried pulling back with a pressure halter on with the lunge-line threaded through the tie ring. Double, triple or even quadruple baler band at varying lengths may also work. Do you know why he is panicking or is it habit now?

As a last resort and not a massive fan of it as the above has always worked - even on un-handled 5yr old feral horses, you could always try 'swinging' him... Never had to do it before but if you're running out of options....
 
I was going to suggest the 2 loops of twine idea too, but I would also consider teaching him to ground tie and stand still when asked. I think it's a super useful skill for all horses, I have used it plenty of times in an emergency out hacking.

I have seen horses have a real panic and become injured when tied up directly to fence posts (pulled out the fence and bogged off across the field with fence banging around its legs) and metal rings and i don't think it's worth it. If your horse is smart it won't take long to teach to ground tie. Good luck with him :)
 
I use an Idolo tether tie with my 4 year old. Allows the rope to pull through but horse is still tied up. They quickly learn there is no point in pulling away!

Just noticed this is exactly what elsielouise has linked to above. They really are excellent.
 
In my experience horses that have been 'swung' often have long term soreness at the poll. You could always start at the other end by putting something like round pen panels by him, carefully secured and with no gaps that he can gets his legs through, so that when he pulls back there is nowhere to go. Usually works after a short period of practice.
 
Riverrock said:
Hi all



I am having some issues in tying him up - he knows that he can break through string so does that as soon as he is tied up. So I have been tying him to the ring in order to try and break the habit. I don't leave horse alone when tied to ring other than to go and get tack from tack room so at most alone for 5 mins but horse never appears to panic at this stage, only panics and pulls back at the initial tying up part!



I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do next - there is no reason for him to panic and is pure naughtiness initially as knows can break the string but when he realises that he can't escape (as tied to ring) he then starts to panic.
Any thoughts? :)
Click to expand...

in 5 minutes (or even half a minute) your horse could have broken his neck or otherwise seriously damaged himself, or he could have pulled back with such force that the headcollar broke and the horse damaged his poll seriously as he flew over backwards.
It may sound harsh but I cannot believe anyone around horses should ever tie a horse up like that.

I say this from personal experience. I took on a horse who had been tied up in this way, I have no idea what happened but he had either gone over backwards or hung himself. I had him for the latter 14 years of his life and I could never ever tie him up, he was totally terrified. He was a nightmare to live with. I didn't care if I could tie him up as I had taught him to ground tie but I had to watch anyone else who went near him like a hawk in case they tried to tie him up.

The way to stop it is to stop doing it and stop making an issue with it with a 5 year old. Find some other way of containing him and in a few months when he has grown up a bit teach him it again correctly from the very begining.
 
Firefly9410 said:
Being tied up causes pressure when they walk to the end of the rope. So far he has learned that pulling back increases the pressure momentarily but continuing to pull back releases the pressure altogether when the string breaks. Now you have tied him to the ring his method of releasing the pressure no longer works. I have no problem with you tying to the ring. Is he obedient to lead? What do you do when he is tied up and panicking and pulling back? I would be taking hold of the rope and asking him to take a step or two forward. Not pulling him or putting more pressure on but your hand on the rope is familiar like when lead. If he does not move forward from your voice give a tap on his ribs, like you would flick him with the end of the rope or a whip when leading. He will soon understand how to step forwards to release the pressure for himself and stop panicking at being tied up.
Click to expand...

Yes he is completely fine to lead. When he is panicking I try to calm him down and untie head collar so I suppose I'm also reinforcing the pull back = escape. When he panics he really goes for it and tries to sit behind so only option at that point is to try the bristles of a brush at back heels to try and encourage forward (works well with nappers) but I'm generally in wrong place (ie at his head) when he does pull back. Might try getting friend to be ready at back end.

FfionWinnie said:
Teach him to move away from pressure not into it. That means in that situation he will go forwards not backwards.
Click to expand...
Yes might try the brush bristles to encourage forwards, just need to get a friend to be ready with brush.

NZJenny said:
I had this very same problem with the horse in my avatar - also as a four year old.

Initially I used a tail rope on him, but he then learnt that when the tail rope was on, he couldn't break away.

In the end, I gritted my teeth, tied him up with a rope and halter that wouldn't break, to a ring that wouldn't break and let him figure it out for himself.

I HATE seeing horse pull, but I had run out of ideas. The inner tube produced the hiliarious situation of him trying to figure out how far it would stretch!

My all or nothing solution worked. I hated doing it, but with a clever horse, sometimes you just have to remove all the options.
Click to expand...
Glad someone else has this issue! Will have a look and see if there is a cycle tyre about :)

Barnacle said:
Just what happens when your horse panics? If by panic you mean that he starts kicking out a little and getting agitated and walking back and forth etc, I'd just leave the horse to it. They get over it after a few minutes. You can help the process along by tying to a new place rather than where the behaviour has become established - like a sturdy fence post outside. And put some hay on the ground in advance so the horse has to move around and feels the end of the line but isn't motivated to just run away. Do make sure you can quickly untie if things get dangerous though! If you find you have to untie, you need to be ready to reprimand the horse by making it run around a bit - otherwise it will be rewarded and repeat the unwanted behaviour.

Obviously this is assuming you have no trouble leading... If your horse also has issues when being led, the problem is more fundamental and you need to take a few steps back.

I would also try the suggestion of "punishing" the horse every time it pulls back or panics but only if this first option fails as it's a lot more time consuming and less reliable as it's not stopping the horse from panicking, just motivating it to suppress that. To do this, tie your horse but keep a separate leadrope attached as well, which you keep a hold of. I'd do it with string and as soon as the horse snaps it, lunge around you with lots of activity (you have the leadrope to do this with). You don't need to go around 10 times... Just go around a couple of times, let the horse settle and tie again. Rinse and repeat until the horse stands still and doesn't pull back. When your horse looks even slightly relaxed, untie it. Walk it away, bring it back, tie again, treat, scratch or pat or whatever you like to do as a reward and repeat the whole process. Use a longer leadrope or lunge line to practice from increasingly further away and eventually with you out of sight. You should be able to teach your horse to just stand quietly with the string and never have to move on to the solid tie.

You can also teach your horse to stand still untied... If you have the patience to try this, I can explain how it's done. Then tying will just be a back-up measure as your horse will stand where you left it of its own accord.
Click to expand...

Panicking as in starts to pull back dramatically, and looks as though is trying to sit down. Neck gets tossed and hurled about and yesterday he started to leap about trying to get away from pressure - dangerous for all of us! Only stops this behaviour when breaks string or is untied.
Double tied to string also might be an option, to stop the habit.

elsielouise said:
http://horsemanship-journal.com/problems/tie-training/

The tie clip shown in the picture and this article works. I use this for all mine including the never tied before. Brilliant bit of kit. They can't snap back or hurt themselves.
Click to expand...

Thank you, will have a look into these :)

The wife said:
My first port of call with horses that pull-back is by 'playing fish' with the lunge-line but seen you've already tried this... Have you tried it with a pressure halter/dually on? Have cured many this way from pulling back. My little ex-racer was a puller backer for 3 days until he tried pulling back with a pressure halter on with the lunge-line threaded through the tie ring. Double, triple or even quadruple baler band at varying lengths may also work. Do you know why he is panicking or is it habit now?

As a last resort and not a massive fan of it as the above has always worked - even on un-handled 5yr old feral horses, you could always try 'swinging' him... Never had to do it before but if you're running out of options....
Click to expand...

Yeah I tried the lunge rope tied to the rope halter but he was too clever and worked it out lol. Interestingly he doesn't pull back when the headcollar is around his neck so I might try double headcollaring him and see if that stops the habit. I haven't heard of swinging before but will look it up thanks :)

benz said:
I was going to suggest the 2 loops of twine idea too, but I would also consider teaching him to ground tie and stand still when asked. I think it's a super useful skill for all horses, I have used it plenty of times in an emergency out hacking.

I have seen horses have a real panic and become injured when tied up directly to fence posts (pulled out the fence and bogged off across the field with fence banging around its legs) and metal rings and i don't think it's worth it. If your horse is smart it won't take long to teach to ground tie. Good luck with him :)
Click to expand...

Yes I also don't think tieing to ring is the safest option but at least the ring is attached to a concrete wall. Ground tieing may be a good option but he still has to learn to stand tied up to a ring as it is an essential skill for horses.

paddy555 said:
in 5 minutes (or even half a minute) your horse could have broken his neck or otherwise seriously damaged himself, or he could have pulled back with such force that the headcollar broke and the horse damaged his poll seriously as he flew over backwards.
It may sound harsh but I cannot believe anyone around horses should ever tie a horse up like that.

I say this from personal experience. I took on a horse who had been tied up in this way, I have no idea what happened but he had either gone over backwards or hung himself. I had him for the latter 14 years of his life and I could never ever tie him up, he was totally terrified. He was a nightmare to live with. I didn't care if I could tie him up as I had taught him to ground tie but I had to watch anyone else who went near him like a hawk in case they tried to tie him up.

The way to stop it is to stop doing it and stop making an issue with it with a 5 year old. Find some other way of containing him and in a few months when he has grown up a bit teach him it again correctly from the very begining.
Click to expand...

It is a nightmare to have a horse that won't tie up. Hence I am trying to find ways to stop him from breaking string and stop the habit of pulling back!
I also highly doubt leaving him for an entire year is going to solve the issue.


Thanks all for the replies, some good ideas here :)
 
I definately wouldnt just leave it, he will be even bigger and stronger in a year!! I would get a lunge line, on a strong headcollar, and a schooling whip. Then take him to the ring and make out you were tying him, but dont tie, just pass the lunge line through the ring and hold it. Have the whip in your right hand and hold the line in your left.walk away and sideways. When he goes to pull back, let the lunge line out gently so he cant pull/doesnt panic, but at the same time tap him gently on the quarters with the whip and say 'stand up' - he should walk forward again if hes been taught to lunge. When he walks forward go to his head and give a titbit. Keep repeating till he finds its way more beneficial for him to stand there than pull back.
And I agree- all horses should be taaught to tie up.
 
Riverrock said:
Panicking as in starts to pull back dramatically, and looks as though is trying to sit down. Neck gets tossed and hurled about and yesterday he started to leap about trying to get away from pressure - dangerous for all of us! Only stops this behaviour when breaks string or is untied.
Double tied to string also might be an option, to stop the habit.
Click to expand...

I am afraid that words fail me. I think you need to start teaching your panicking horse in a way that he can cope with learning before he gets seriously hurt. In all honesty from your comments, and I don't want to sound rude, I think you need some expert help, bunny hugger or otherwise.
A horse leaping about trying to get away from pressure is not being a naughty horse he is a scared horse. If he had been taught correctly from the start I doubt this would be happening as he would have learnt that the way to release himself from pressure is to move towards it. If you teach him how to do this he will stop panicking. If you don't teach him until after he has hurt himself he will always be unsafe to leave tied up.

When you pulls back you shouldn't be at his head and you certainly don't need a brush behind him to move him forward. Put a long rope on the headcollar, thread it through a ring (not string) and hold the other end letting him pull back, as he pulls back gently encourage him to step forward and release the pressure. Once he does this reward him. Keep repeating. You will find it works and you have a horse safe to tie up.
 
Teasel said:
I use an Idolo tether tie with my 4 year old. Allows the rope to pull through but horse is still tied up. They quickly learn there is no point in pulling away!

Just noticed this is exactly what elsielouise has linked to above. They really are excellent.
Click to expand...

Have used it on a never before tied youngster. Can now tie him to anything. Great and cheap,piece of kit. Can't think of a better method and known more than a few!
 
paddy555 said:
I am afraid that words fail me. I think you need to start teaching your panicking horse in a way that he can cope with learning before he gets seriously hurt. In all honesty from your comments, and I don't want to sound rude, I think you need some expert help, bunny hugger or otherwise.
A horse leaping about trying to get away from pressure is not being a naughty horse he is a scared horse. If he had been taught correctly from the start I doubt this would be happening as he would have learnt that the way to release himself from pressure is to move towards it. If you teach him how to do this he will stop panicking. If you don't teach him until after he has hurt himself he will always be unsafe to leave tied up.

When you pulls back you shouldn't be at his head and you certainly don't need a brush behind him to move him forward. Put a long rope on the headcollar, thread it through a ring (not string) and hold the other end letting him pull back, as he pulls back gently encourage him to step forward and release the pressure. Once he does this reward him. Keep repeating. You will find it works and you have a horse safe to tie up.
Click to expand...

And you need to read my thread more thoroughly!
I said that breaking the string has become a habit. Out of shear naughtiness.

To try and break the habit I have tied him to the ring. When he pulls back to break the string (out of habit) THEN he starts to panic as he realises he cannot escape and the string isn't breaking as he expected. As titled in the thread - a PANICKING horse. I never said that the pulling back when tied to ring was out of naughtiness it is only naughty when he breaks the string but when he realises he is tied to something that won't break he then panics.

He has been taught correctly to tie up and was fine when backing. This habit has only started since he was brought back into work the past month.

I am generally at his head when he starts this behaviour as he ONLY does it as soon as he has been tied up - so I am at his head as have just tied him up!!

I shall also repeat that I have tried the lunge rein through the ring but he is very clever and has never tried to pull back when I have the lunge rein attached. He knows he can't escape when this is on.




I have some excellent suggestions from others on here so thanks but no thanks paddy, I think I will try their suggestions.
 
what happens if you have a lunge rope and a usual rope, tie him with the usual rope but leave the lunge line through the ring and on the ground if you say he doesnt pull back if lunge rope is attached? Maybe you could do this, then if hes ok gradually use a shorter and shorter piece of rope as the 'lunge rope' till in the end its gone and hes just tied?
 
stormox said:
what happens if you have a lunge rope and a usual rope, tie him with the usual rope but leave the lunge line through the ring and on the ground if you say he doesnt pull back if lunge rope is attached? Maybe you could do this, then if hes ok gradually use a shorter and shorter piece of rope as the 'lunge rope' till in the end its gone and hes just tied?
Click to expand...

That sounds like a plan, think will try that next. Safer and and I could get a helper to hold lunge rein while I tie up, so that can try and stop the pulling back before it starts. Maybe it will also "trick" him so that he doesn't realise is attached to lunge rein lol
 
wWell, the idea isnt to 'trick' him, but to break the habit. You will have to do it over a period of weeks, or months, but you need to start as you mean to go on, tie him up yourself as you usually do, or else he might learn only to not pull back if youve a helper with you, and will still do it when youre on your own.
 
Coming from another angle, do you travel him? Does he pull back when tied in a box?

Have you tried putting him on pillar reins? I have found this has worked with some who really just dont want to be tied.
Never had the problem in the unhandled ones that came in, but occasionally with ones which were handled well prior to backing & getting going.

Hope you find a route that suits you and horse OP.

To add to the tieing to string: Having had a 14hh loose teeth due to someone tying the nylon baler twine outside his stable to tie their horse to, I wont use it. They left the twine, my daughter popped the pony in his stable and a few mins later all hell broke out when he caught it round his lower jaw, luckily this did not break but 2 teeth were hanging out & required surgery & time off after.
PLEASE PLEASE thin the twine if you have to use it, dont make it big enough for a horse (of any age) to get it round/in their jaw, and PLEASE also consider where you use it too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top