Parelli are only filling a need for a quick fix

Unfortunately the cult of celebrity has seeped into just about all aspects of modern culture, and horse training, riding is no exception, hence the proliferation of all sorts of odd gadgets! It is now apparently uncool to take notice of the local well proven horsemen and women, as they are not on TV, their names are not bandied about in the media, they merely get on and do the job they have been doing their whole lives. This fits in with another, to my mind, unfortunate development in the equestrian world, the fashion for badly turned out horses and riders at shows. Children in long boots and spurs, show jumping gear worn in the hunter ring, hair all over the place, not a net in sight. I know I sound like a grumpy old woman, but it bugs me greatly! :D
 
antagonist said:
The dabate is to challange people's perception that the lastest vogue, fad, gadget, or fashion is an essential component of your life.

To train a horse you need patients, time and empathy not DVD's, the latest bit, or the limited edition cure all oitment!
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but surely if the dvds give owners the confidence to put in the time and have the patience then everyone is happy.....Im not for or against but can see why people might want to go down this route
 
yorksG said:
Unfortunately the cult of celebrity has seeped into just about all aspects of modern culture, and horse training, riding is no exception, hence the proliferation of all sorts of odd gadgets! It is now apparently uncool to take notice of the local well proven horsemen and women, as they are not on TV, their names are not bandied about in the media, they merely get on and do the job they have been doing their whole lives. This fits in with another, to my mind, unfortunate development in the equestrian world, the fashion for badly turned out horses and riders at shows. Children in long boots and spurs, show jumping gear worn in the hunter ring, hair all over the place, not a net in sight. I know I sound like a grumpy old woman, but it bugs me greatly! :D
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ooohhhh no, I know just what you mean, I am a stickler for the traditional ways and it appalls me when I see how people/horses turn up at shows, when I think of how it used to be........ I must be grumpy and old too!
 
hch4971 said:
No, but I used a dually after watching the dvd and correctly too!!
I agree it is not the only component but I cannot imagine anyone watching a P dvd and thinking that they are an expert because they had watched it. I would imagine that they would practice until they got it right and would check back with the dvd to confirm they are using the correct method! Nor would the NHS in this country allow a surgeon to operate unless he had practised what he had learned from the DVD!!!!
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How much damage could be done whilst they practice to get it right especially when treating an already damaged horses?

The surgeon would take a history, examine, test, diagnose, devise a treatment plan, carry out that plan, assess the reponse to treatment and revaulate. Not give it a go and see if it improved.

At least these horses with behavioural problems should be properly diagnosed before treating and this diagnosis stage should be carried out by someone with experiance, and this experiance should be more than "I watched the DVD".
 
antagonist said:
The dabate is to challange people's perception that the lastest vogue, fad, gadget, or fashion is an essential component of your life.

To train a horse you need patients, time and empathy not DVD's, the latest bit, or the limited edition cure all oitment!
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The parelli systems are a means to introduce old western horsemanship techniques. Nothing wrong with that. Parelli have produced a product through demand!! whether you like it or not!! Its a business, same as say, dare I say it, whitaker products!! doesn't mean the basic horsemanship principles behind the system arn't sound or don;t work!! they do!! its up to the individual whether they buy the product. Basic western horsemanship principles also take time and empathy. Just because parelli is a business and showed a huge mistake at the FOTH doesn't make any difference to the basic principles of the horsemanship required for western style training. We can presume your equine maintenance is incredibly cheap!! after all, you can't possibly have up-dated your tack, techniques or maintenance requirements through media pressure or suggestion for years!!
 
antagonist said:
How much damage could be done whilst they practice to get it right especially when treating an already damaged horses?

The surgeon would take a history, examine, test, diagnose, devise a treatment plan, carry out that plan, assess the reponse to treatment and revaulate. Not give it a go and see if it improved.

At least these horses with behavioural problems should be properly diagnosed before treating and this diagnosis stage should be carried out by someone with experiance, and this experiance should be more than "I watched the DVD".
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Lets face it, most of the horses don't have behavioural problems, most people just want to go down their chosen route because they like the look of it - who are we to tell them it is wrong and they shouldn't do things that way. Those that do have problems usually have problems the owner doesnt know how to deal with, that is why they look for methods that will help them. I would bet a very high percentage of all users of such methods got there because of advice from other horse people or from research into various methods and sre simply trying to help themselves or their horse. How much damage can you do with a carrot stick, you might make your horse nervous and spooky if you don't get it right but it is hardly life or death. MY daughter has a parelli set that she was given by a woman that was seriously into it and we have played with some of the exercises. They are completely harmless, 2 of our ponies loved them 1 didn't, we played loose in the field with the carrot stick. At the end of the day it is not like they are advocating battering your horse!

I would be really interested to know if you have seen any of the dvd's or have actually looked at the basics of that particular system (as far as I know they are the only ones that rely on dvds). Have you ever had ANYTHING to do with any of these methods? I'm just trying to get a picture of what it is you seem to feel strongly about!
 
vandypip said:
The parelli systems are a means to introduce old western horsemanship techniques. Nothing wrong with that. Parelli have produced a product through demand!! whether you like it or not!! Its a business, same as say, dare I say it, whitaker products!! doesn't mean the basic horsemanship principles behind the system arn't sound or don;t work!! they do!! its up to the individual whether they buy the product. Basic western horsemanship principles also take time and empathy. Just because parelli is a business and showed a huge mistake at the FOTH doesn't make any difference to the basic principles of the horsemanship required for western style training. We can presume your equine maintenance is incredibly cheap!! after all, you can't possibly have up-dated your tack, techniques or maintenance requirements through media pressure or suggestion for years!!
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But why buy the parelli products or the whittiker products when the generic product is the same, Parelli DVD's contain nothing new (except for cleaver marketing) it has all be out there for years.

An yes horses are the same shape, have the same management issues, the same digestive systems and the same behaviour problems...perhaps people should look at the need they are addressing when making a purchase rather than fall for the marketing to a percieved need.
 
Sorry for quoting you out of context but:

"you might make your horse nervous and spooky if you don't get it right but it is hardly life or death. " and "they are completely harmless"

I surpose it depends on your threashold on the definition of harm.
 
antagonist said:
How much damage could be done whilst they practice to get it right especially when treating an already damaged horses?

The surgeon would take a history, examine, test, diagnose, devise a treatment plan, carry out that plan, assess the reponse to treatment and revaulate. Not give it a go and see if it improved.

At least these horses with behavioural problems should be properly diagnosed before treating and this diagnosis stage should be carried out by someone with experiance, and this experiance should be more than "I watched the DVD".
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I think to be fair to parelli, he does explain equine behaviour and why 'pressure-release' is an effective form of training. Western horsemanship is very old and closely related to classical horsemanship. True, it has become more refined of late, but the basic principles remain. Of course the system is open to abuse, and misinterpretation. All business is!! Agricultural colleges should be questioning their courses to my mind because they've jumped on the band wagon. Now that is a fad!!
 
I have to say that I find it odd that we should import Western American (sic) horsemanship into this country, we have a very strong tradition of good horsemanship here, which admittedly does not have slick marketing etc. Let's face it some old boy with his ancient yard clothes who knows more about getting horses to consistantly perform their job well, is not a saleable commodity. The need to use modified rodeo tricks, roping legs, teaching horses to move back by spooking them into raising their heads and hollowing their backs, instead of moving back quietly, with their heads level with their shoulders, is lost to me, perhaps someone can explain this to me?
 
Fundemental problem when a technique is heavily marketed on the cult of personality rather than the technique itself. When, as is inevitable, the cult of personality breaks, we find the technique and the cult are inseperably linked.

We must take a position when we assess things for what they are, and not who promotes them. Surely the horse owning public are not so nieve to continually fall for this trap.

With that profound thought I am off to bed.
 
antagonist said:
Sorry for quoting you out of context but:

"you might make your horse nervous and spooky if you don't get it right but it is hardly life or death. " and "they are completely harmless"

I surpose it depends on your threashold on the definition of harm.
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mmmmmmmm........I concede that perhaps I didn't word it well........but you didn't answer my question about whether you have ever been involved in any of the 'modern' systems.

I do not remember horses having anywhere near the behavioural problems that you come across now and I had only ever come across 1 case of laminitis in a very large equine area in 12 years of being involved with them. Only straights and pony nuts were available and bits were either snaffle or a pelham if you had a stong horse ehhhh, the good old days!
 
antagonist said:
But why buy the parelli products or the whittiker products when the generic product is the same, Parelli DVD's contain nothing new (except for cleaver marketing) it has all be out there for years.

An yes horses are the same shape, have the same management issues, the same digestive systems and the same behaviour problems...perhaps people should look at the need they are addressing when making a purchase rather than fall for the marketing to a percieved need.
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Could't agree more!! however, I have known people interested in western riding/techniques/horsemansip who have argued that there is a complete lack of this type of geneeral instruction available, and that this was a means to an end. However, I agree it is exploitative and exploited equally, and therefore mistakes are made. Also, there are better and quieter horsemen out there!! supply and demand.
 
antagonist said:
Fundemental problem when a technique is heavily marketed on the cult of personality rather than the technique itself. When, as is inevitable, the cult of personality breaks, we find the technique and the cult are inseperably linked.

We must take a position when we assess things for what they are, and not who promotes them. Surely the horse owning public are not so nieve to continually fall for this trap.

With that profound thought I am off to bed.
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Problem is, they are!! and will continue to do so!!!
 
Well how many genuinely knowlegeable people do you know?Many people learn to ride at riding schools.How many riding schools teach people how to lead, box a horse or make it stand by a mounting block to be mounted?The last BHS manual I read said that if a horse was difficult to load a stiff brush up its bum would often work!!!!! AI used to be the bottom ladder.Nowmany seems to think its the top and when they have an AI they consider that they are fully trained instructors and need no more.The market was left open.
I don't particularly like Parelli but do like some NH and have an NH instructor I admire and use when I need.
 
antagonist said:
Fundemental problem when a technique is heavily marketed on the cult of personality rather than the technique itself. When, as is inevitable, the cult of personality breaks, we find the technique and the cult are inseperably linked.

We must take a position when we assess things for what they are, and not who promotes them. Surely the horse owning public are not so nieve to continually fall for this trap.

With that profound thought I am off to bed.
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I dont know why you and other people are getting so heated about him and his *******ised form of training I dont think there is that many people following him and most who dabble soon reailse its bull***** and so why waste so much time discusing him??? .. people always fall for bull, for instance think how do people get the idea voting for the left is a good idea!!!!! some people will always be naive and guilble and buy into something be it parelli , the labour party, religious cults , or any other well marketed cr&p in the hope it will make there lives better...
 
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one of my chief probs with pp and with m roberts is that they present a false counterpoint - ie - look at my method, isn't it better than roping the horse, throwing it to the ground, branding it with fire, slapping a saddle on and riding into the sunset.

Well ... maybe, but the BHS has never actually been known for recommending any of the above, and to my knowledge, to this day, no Pony Clubber has ever been required to throw a horse to obtain their C test.

I basically learned to train a young horse in a shocking pre DVD piece of media exploitation known as 'Training the Young Horse or Pony' (then in the *green* cover) from Pony Club, and fluffed up my knowledge by quietly watching and politely questioning the B testers and instructors at the riding school.

I can recall that book almost word for word, and not a roping or a branding with fire was to be seen.

I think celebrity, markets for gadgets, quick fix mentality etc etc etc have ALL been created as part of MARKETING. We don't buy dvds because we must have a quick fix. We have learned that we want a quick fix because we have been conned into buying dvds.
 
Is the void these people fill created by the lack of the traditional hierarchy in horsemanship. Surely the "old hands" with years of experiance must still be out there. (In my opionion a few of the old hands have sold out to make a commercial killing but most havn't)

Perhaps, the issue is that the younger horse owners who are most little more than teenagers have the typical attitude o0f the generation that they know best, the oldies are so out of touch, and everything must happen now etc. and have the money and inclination to follow false massiahs!

I've woken up even older and grumpier than when I went to bed!!
 
"I would be really interested to know if you have seen any of the dvd's or have actually looked at the basics of that particular system (as far as I know they are the only ones that rely on dvds). Have you ever had ANYTHING to do with any of these methods? I'm just trying to get a picture of what it is you seem to feel strongly about!"

Sorry, didn't address this question earlier. We did invite a pratitioner of natural horsemanship to give a demonstration...sadly went away very underimpressed. Don't think our horses had seen the DVD's and just looked confused by the experiance.

PS I do have vague recollection of Barbara Woodhouse many years ago, (I know dogs not horses).....do you think she would be marketable in the modern era... Slap on a cowboy hat with the twinset and pearls and hye presto.
 
eahotson said:
Well how many genuinely knowlegeable people do you know?Many people learn to ride at riding schools.How many riding schools teach people how to lead, box a horse or make it stand by a mounting block to be mounted?The last BHS manual I read said that if a horse was difficult to load a stiff brush up its bum would often work!!!!! AI used to be the bottom ladder.Nowmany seems to think its the top and when they have an AI they consider that they are fully trained instructors and need no more.The market was left open.
I don't particularly like Parelli but do like some NH and have an NH instructor I admire and use when I need.
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Whilst this subject is now boring me now I totally agree with the above - the BHS and ABRS are FAILING the amateur leisure horse owning population and quite possibly all the horse owning population and that it why the likes of Parelli et al are so popular. A BHSII instructor at my old yards technique for loading horse was to use a lonegeing whip to whip their heels into the box - well my friends mare reared up went over backwards and nearly broke her neck. After months off she used someone trained with Monty Roberts - she loaded quietly within half an hour now loads like a dream - no fuss no violence. At this ABRS approved EC once the BHSII left they had nobody qualified above stage 3. The horses were unschooled and the main instruction issued was KICK said more like KEEEECK in a highpitched whiny voice followed if not working by the "instructor" (I hesitate to call them that) chasing the horse with a longe whip.

Where are the BHS clinics to help you load a difficult horse, deal with hacking obstacles, deal with a horse that doesn't like to be touched or groomed? All these things affect the everyday rider and make the experience unpleasant. I don't belong to any group or practise anything religiously but I do read about them, have been to demos, tried things out (they have worked). Being open -minded in this way I feel my life and my relationship with my horse is much richer for it.

My horse does dressage, jumping, cross-country, club teams, hacking he also can stand on a box and push a giant ball around! Now he is older I want to prepare to be able to do things less high impact with him so I am looking at low-level le trec and horse agility. Without NH of whatever kind I doubt that these would be options would be so available.
 
BORING.........I think people only put Parelli posts on here as they have nothing else to say. As per usual same old biggoted answers. Can't be bothered to put my point accross.
 
TicTac said:
BORING.........I think people only put Parelli posts on here as they have nothing else to say. As per usual same old biggoted answers. Can't be bothered to put my point accross.
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I think if you took the time to read the posts you will see that the discussion is more on the void created in the industry that is being filled by Parelli or whatever other fad has come and gone, rather than churning over the same debate.

PS Haven't by posting your reply you have put your point across...does that mean you have nothing else to say.
 
Um yes, I do have to say that I agree with comments made re. BSH above. Whilst disliking the "hype" and "publicity machine" concerning Parelli, plus the need to spend lots of money on progressing to the next "level" etc., I can see that for some horses/rider combinations, it just might be a breath of fresh air.

Mine's a difficult loader, and pulls back, jumps off the ramp into the hedge, rears up, you name it. We've been here for well over an hour trying to get the blighter to load - no joy. Then an Intelligent Horsemanship person came out - and lo & behold he'd gone in within 10 minutes (little s@d!!). So there's gotta be something in it, and the person that got him in the trailer was possessed of more sheer horsemanship than I had, at that time (plus lots of patience).

Our forefathers knew all about the old fashioned word called "horsemanship" whereas there's a generation now that's new to horses and do't have the old wisdom - so have to resort to artificial aids such as strong bits, martingales, etc, as they don't have the natural empathy developed over generations of working with horses.

This is probably why Parelli and other things have become so popular; there's nothing new fangled in it, if you really get down to basics. Its just old wisdom re-bottled - unfortunately the price-tag comes a bit high, plus the hype can be destracting, but I do think it needs to be properly used and not just "sold" as a quick fix, which is what I see happening unfortunately.
 
Where are the BHS clinics to help you load a difficult horse, deal with hacking obstacles, deal with a horse that doesn't like to be touched or groomed? All these things affect the everyday rider and make the experience unpleasant. I don't belong to any group or practise anything religiously but I do read about them, have been to demos, tried things out (they have worked). Being open -minded in this way I feel my life and my relationship with my horse is much richer for it.
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Well why not ask local/regional BHS people this very question, and all you registered instructors on here, come up with something - I agree being a little pro active might help.

I challenge some of the professionals on here to set up and promote just one weeny little clinic a piece - loading, handling, spooking - anything really - or a basic common sense horsemanship course.

A one day course lets say, unmounted (obviously you don't get one on one with a dvd) but still hands on, for eight people, fifty quid each?

I used to run courses for parents, pre pony ownership, and they were very popular - wish I'd bought a cowboy hat and filmed them now ;)
 
skewbald_again said:
Well why not ask local/regional BHS people this very question, and all you registered instructors on here, come up with something - I agree being a little pro active might help.

I challenge some of the professionals on here to set up and promote just one weeny little clinic a piece - loading, handling, spooking - anything really - or a basic common sense horsemanship course.

A one day course lets say, unmounted (obviously you don't get one on one with a dvd) but still hands on, for eight people, fifty quid each?

I used to run courses for parents, pre pony ownership, and they were very popular - wish I'd bought a cowboy hat and filmed them now ;)
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I suspect the experianced running courses would fear looking a fool when they fail to demonstrate there advice so shy away from it.

My suspicion is that Pat Parelli on his recent PR disaster fell into the trap that he had to be proved successfull in front of his audience and didn't have the courage to back off from the situation and admit defeat. Perhaps ego and cowboy hatted machoism getting in the way!
 
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