Parelli at Stoneleigh

[kimsavvy]

I am so pleased that Parelli are now resident in the UK, also I am so shocked and dismayed by people who do not understand Parelli making awful comments on a system they know nothing about! With regards to pricing of equipment and DVDs, what you are actually paying for is Quality, I know that everyone thinks they can get other equipment cheaper - please feel free to do so, just don't expect the same results!

What most people fail to understand is that Pat and Linda are not interested in how good they can be with your horse (unlike most instructors etc), the knowledge and the system they provide is Pat's 35 years of experience packaged so you can learn how to be so good, that even your horse is impressed! As for the middle aged remark - no simply I can answer this - safety is the key issue with Parelli - how many times do you get on your horse without checking how his/her mood is? I suspect most of you - how dangerous is that?

I have been following Parelli for some years now, not only has it changed me as a person, my relationship with my horse is solid, by the way, may I add a previous owner was going to have her shot - deemed too dangerous! For those people that are looking at the system, I can assure you if you decide to take this path, the most fantastic journey with a wealth of knowledge awaits you. I simply cannot express how greatful I am to Pat and Linda, they continually strive to make the programme and learning easier and they will continue to have my total loyalty

To the Parelli UK Team - keep up the good work guys and I will look forward to seeing you all soon.

 

[henryhorn]

Your post is a bit of a blanket statement in the vein of "parelli is the best thing since sliced bread type of thing", and doesn't give any other methods credit whatsoever.
I speak from the personal experience of selling a horse which was happily hacking out alone, good in every way to handle and had just done it's first show totally stress free and been successful, only to have it's new owner "parelli" it and completely wreck it. She informed me until she had played so many parelli games with it she wouldn't be riding it again, so it was no surprise really when after three and a half months of "games" she attempted to mount it in it's own large grazing feld only to be bucked off on the second circuit!
We offered to take it back and start it again but no, she prefered to keep it as a pet..
I then watched the parelli lot getting ready for a demo behind the scenes at a county show, and was not impressed at all. Waving a stick with a plastic bag on is
hardly rocket science...
people like us have been handling and training horses for in some cases as long as the parelli people.. Watching horses behaviour has taught us the obvious methods of dealng with them, and trial and error has been the teacher for most of us.
I am totally open to new ideas and methods but feel peddling a method to inexperienced people is a recipe for disaster. The problem being without supervision horsesd aren't machines and things can and do go wrong.
I even sat through their video to see what it could teach me, and was horrified to see Pat lungeing another horse whilst sitting on one.. If a teenager tried that
trick to impress their friends they could end up strangled or worse.
You can rave on about how parelli has helped you, but please try not to sound so superior about it, many of us have learned our knowledge by experience, not from a book or video..and I would rate your "expertise" lower against experience any day I'm afraid if it came to the test...So forgive me if I don't join in your joy at them being at Stoneleigh...

 

[Enfys]

"........how many times do you get on your horse without checking how his/her mood is? I suspect most of you - how dangerous is that?"

My apologies, but this seems an odd statement. What are you meant to do, a series of tests?
It is an unconscious thing that I assume everyone who has experience with horses registers isn't it?
By the time you have caught your horse, groomed and tacked up etc, anyone with an iota of sense and familiarity with equines will have cottoned on to how a horse is feeling by his reactions as you do these things.

Welcome to HHO by the way.

 

[Scarlett]

<applauds Henryhorns reply>

the parelli fanatics I've had the misfortune to share a yard with were a constant source of amusment - carrot sticks and huge bouncy balls???? Give me a break....

I have a better relationship with my 2 through common sence, praise and reward and good old fashioned love and trust than any Parelli fanatic I've met....

utter madness...

 

[Scarlett]

Sorry, just seen the 'checking your horses mood' comment - what we supposed to do, ask them...?

Statements like that are what people who are too scared to ride their horses and insist on 'playing games' with them use to try and justify not getting on... 'my horse isnt in the mood so we're gonna run about the school instead...' utter tosh...

 

[Tierra]

Dont rate it at all and find it somewhat comical that they chose Stoneleigh as their new base.

I dont need lessons or guides to judge the mood of my horse; I have enough hands on experience to be able to do this. Will I ride if he's not in a great mood? Quite possibly

Its great that you have "found" your relationship with your horse through parelli but preeching to people who aren't fans is pointless; we're entitled to our opinions as much as you and honestly, this is precisely one of the reasons that parelli fans make themselves unpopular.

I remember watching a video of Linda Parelli giving instructions regarding her "riding with fluidity" and being completly appalled by everything she preeched (and im a classically taught rider, should you be interested).

Should i find it, I'll post it and let some others take a look.

Oh and in regards to everyone making comments having no knowledge about the system - dont be so quick to judge. I have and I know others on this forum have and no, i STILL wasnt impressed. Don't assume that the only ones who don't fall at their feet are the ones who are ignorant.

 

[Tierra]

Agree 100% !

Seen this happen first hand a few times also

 

[RCAWilson]

Henryhorn, all Kimsavvy was saying was how it helped her and how grateful she is to Pat and Linda. No need to be SO negative!
Mentioning someone who tried Parelli and failed with it (by the sounds of it, she might be doing great now) does not mean the program is at fault- if something goes wrong, its the person not the horse.
I think you'd be suprised at Kimsavvy's ability with handling horses, if she has been following it for some years then there's a big possibility she's learned more about horses in those years then many (many, many) people will have learn in a lifetime, no joke!

 

[Mid]

So every single time Parelli goes wrong, it's the person's fault?

 

[Tinypony]

Unfortunately, getting fanatical about anything tends to alienate people, and that is what so many Parelli enthusiasts do. Assuming that you do something that makes your horsemanship better than other people's also tends to alienate them.
I think you need to realise that if it isn't broken then people aren't going to see any reason to fix it. There are people here who are doing really well with their horses, who are starting and producing good youngsters, competing successfuly etc. (Sorry - I always spell that wrong!).
When you talk about people checking their horse's mood before they ride, I assume you are talking about going through your Parelli "pre-flight checks" before you mount up? Like, a quick run through your 7 games, test lateral flexion both sides while standing by your horse, running the rope around his hind end and asking him to turn into it... Don't you realise that Pat, Linda and the gang only do that for demo purposes? Once you have more experience your "pre-flight checks" should happen just as you are bringing your horse up from the field and tacking him up. Is he soft to yield? Will he soften his neck? etc etc. And other experienced horsepeople will be doing similar, probably without even realising it. They aren't all stupid.
I know a lot of Parelli people make t*ts of themselves with their horses, but I have to say - so do a lot of non-Parelli horse people.

I think that enthusiastic novices have the capacity to stuff horses up whatever label they have around their necks.
Another problem is that many Parelli fans treat it as some sort of a separate horse discipline, which was never the intention. It's not supposed to be about "I'm going to do Parelli now" and off into the arena to work sequentially through your 7 games. Pat P intended that his training would simply form a basis for all equine work, not that people would get stuck around level 1/2 ish and never go any further. He would take people through level 1 and bitless, on to level 2 and the bridle and beyond... to using rowel spurs and a curb bit. He wants to see his students out in the real world, jumping, doing dressage and everything. But I think some of his students don't see it like that.
As an ex-Parelli student and employee I found that the approach did give me some useful training and a good introduction to the wider world of natural horsemanship. But, contrary to what Parelli recommends, I looked and studied further and found that there were other ways to get the results I wanted, in a less confrontational way, and often more quickly (which seemed to work out fairer on the horse).
So I'm very glad that you have found Parelli so useful, but I think if you want to win people to your cause it might be help to be a bit more tactful. Maybe you would also find it interesting to look at some more good trainers (not just NH) as well, you might find some useful ideas that will help you reach your goals.

 

[Tinypony]

"So every single time Parelli goes wrong, it's the person's fault?"
IMHO it is, but I'd say that about any training with horses. When my horses get things wrong it's because I haven't made things clear and easy enough for them, so it's my fault. I do believe that, love it or hate it, the Parelli approach will work for all horses, just as the BHS approach would. But we know how wrong it can all go when the theory tries to turn into practise.

 

[Doublethyme]

[ QUOTE ]
also I am so shocked and dismayed by people who do not understand Parelli making awful comments on a system they know nothing about!

[/ QUOTE ]

Err don't you think this statement is kind of assuming that the people making negative comments know nothing about the system - you don't know that, they may have intimate knowledge of it and just disagree with your view!

I find your tone very patronising, which is something I have found first hand when dealing with Parelli followers - one of which was just s**t scared of her horse and wanted to make everyone else the same! Took great pleasure in telling people "oh your horse has that look today" "oh your horse's back is up, you'll have a fun ride, haha" - very constructive for people riding young horses or nervous riders who are trying their best to hide it from their horses and just going out the gate for a first hack etc!! This particular person had a "youngster" that was a living miracle as it didn't "age" at all in the 3 years I knew it and was still a baby and doing endless rope twirling and circles in the school because according to her owner she wasn't "ready" for anything else. The poor animal was so bored it was almost comatose! And this was someone that was promoting herself for NH lessons!!!

A few people on the yard had lessons with her and she "allowed" my friend's young unbacked mare to kick said friend to make a point - nice! Funny thing was when I mentioned to her about maybe having a few ground work lessons with my feisty herd leader mare, she went green round the gills, muttered something about needing a round pen and made a quick retreat! The mares not that bad, just a bit opinionated!

I've done my own version of join up with her (just for fun) and a bit of ground work no problem, just used my common sense as most people have said!

Having said all that (phew long post sorry!!), my experiences with said lady above has badly coloured my views against Parelli etc. I am interested in it, but do have some huge concerns about the whole system and the way it is marketed.

 

[Tierra]

Your post was a very balanced argument and I agree with what you said at the start that many parelli enthusiasts alienate themselves completly which is something they dont seem to see.

Id also agree with your second post completly. Horses know how to be horses and taking dressage as an example (just because thats what i do), they know how to do all the movements required... you'll see them being "performed" in fields all over the world when horses are playing free. Its we, as riders, that need to learn to communicate with our horses and ask for those movements on demand. If the horse responds incorrectly, then its because there are cross wires somewhere.

 

[Doublethyme]

Yay the voice of reason Tinypony - what an excellent, well informed post! Thank you - its people like you that I wish I had met, instead of the NH ones I have, as my views would not be so confused!

 

[Tinypony]

Anytime! Would love to meet and share views one day, these Parelli discussions always vex me because I think in some ways Parelli gives NH a bad name.

 

[hussar]

QR
I shared a yard with a Parelli enthusiast... until that point I knew very little about the method. But this girl never rode her horses (she had 3), just did circles and cones and twirling and backing. I once persuaded her to come on a short hack with me. She wound her 12ft rope into a tight coil under the horse's chin and the weight of that rope on the skinny rope 'bridle' made the poor thing toss its head the whole time until she got off and led it. I never saw her ride again.

IMO, Parelli is just well-packaged and marketed common-sense. It obviously suits some people - good for them.

 

[Tinypony]

Sorry, I'm on one now...
I have a few horses, and I would say that the "nh way" is an ingrained part of my life now. I am very proud of them, in some cases they have been dire re-hab cases, I also start my own youngsters, and they are all absolutely lovely. They come without a call, they are well mannered and - oh, you get the picture.

Thinking back realised that these current horses don't do all that my first "Parelli/NH" horses do. One has always been ridden bitted, I have him nice and responsive, but he didn't take to bitless. Another is always bitles because she seems to prefer it. None of them do the spectacular liberty work that I did with two I had before them. I think this is because, once you really get this stuff under your skin, it becomes second nature and common sense. So, when you get a new horse, instead of going "Parelli student" and saying "right, I have to WIN my 7 games, make sure he will sniff his saddle, get him riding in the rope halter and soft before using a bit..." - you just look at the horse in front of you and deal with that. Some need more groundwork than others, some need to go back to bitless, but you as trainer don't feel the need to check everything out in order and tick all the boxes.
If that makes sense.

 

[henryhorn]

RAW, but don't you see, the system is marketed as if you follow it you'll be successful, but having watched hundreds of private horse owners in my lifetime have problems, what it doesn't take into account is the people's limitations..
Some will never understand horses if they spend a lifetime around them.
There is no substitute for common sense and experience, no amount of videos, demos etc are going to help that person having trouble with their horse at home when things don't go according to the book or game version..
It makes my blood boil in a way nothing else does, I've been fortunate in my time to be able to watch some of the best trainers in the world including a double Gold Olympian, and the whole parelli thing smacks of making money rather than anything else I'm afraid. Yes the couple who started it are skilled talented riders, but then so are many others who don't train the parelli methods.
Kimsavvy may be saying how grateful she was, but she makes it sound as if it's the only method worth considering.
What is it with you people you are so fixed in your views? I think perhaps that's what bugs me the most, the fixation of following the programme so strictly.
If there is one thing about horses it's that they need quick thinking from their handlers and an abilty to do what's dictated by their behaviour.
Sticking to the "Games" is by the sound of it just the opposite...
As for kimsavvy's lifetime experience you're very welcome to send her here, with 40 plus horses of every type and age you could imagine, a stallion who needs careful handling, let's try her out against our "traditional " methods.. 4 years of parelli does not constitute a lifetime with horses.. I've had over 50 years and I still learn new things most days of the week!

 

[Tinypony]

Parelli would say that Kimsavvy shouldn't be "doing" Parelli with a stallion. Because (I doubt) she isn't on Level 4 yet.

 

[Faithkat]

[ QUOTE ]
With regards to pricing of equipment and DVDs, what you are actually paying for is Quality, I know that everyone thinks they can get other equipment cheaper - please feel free to do so, just don't expect the same results!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a Parelli fan either but I would love to know why a Parelli lead rope is £36!!! Looks just like an ordinary long lead rope to me, i.e about a fiver's worth of yacht rope with a clip on one end.

 

[mickey]

I bought the Parelli pack a few yrs ago and I have found watching the videos and going through the games/exercises helpful with my horse. I also use some of the Kelly Marks/Monty Roberts methods. I believe the groundwork helps to build the relationship I have with my horse and adds variety to his routine.

I don't religiously practice this - I use the games maybe once every couple of weeks.

I have run into some circumstances when I have felt that had I not had the experience I do things could have become potentially difficult with a shaper or more difficult horse. In that instance I really do think you need someone on the ground to help you. You have to be careful that your body launguage is not slightly incorrect because this can cause issues.....

 

[Skhosu]

I always think horses doing these things look exceptionally bored and fail to see why a 'carrot' stick is needed.

 

[Weezy]

[ QUOTE ]


I think you'd be suprised at Kimsavvy's ability with handling horses, if she has been following it for some years then there's a big possibility she's learned more about horses in those years then many (many, many) people will have learn in a lifetime, no joke!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry that IS a big joke! For goodness sakes, she has learnt what Parelli has told her to learn

I learn about horses because I KNOW HORSES, I do not make them engage in games they don't want to play, or have any reason to play.

 

[Paint it Lucky]

What annoys me about parelli is it doesn't tell you anything about horse behaviour or psychology (beyond a very basic level), therefore it doesn't teach people why their horses react the way they do. In my oppinion it's steps and rules are all very well but when a horse doesn't do exactly as it's supposed to the system doesn't tell you why this might be, therefore it doesn't improve peoples understanding of horses, and if you don't understand horses you'll never be a good horse trainer.

 

[lilym]

i think it is rubbish, that is my opinion and if you you don't like it hard luck. ui have seen to many good horses ruined by this method, used by people who have seen one demo and think they know it all. or the novices who are petrified of the animal they have overhorsed themselves with get drawn into this rubbish, never to ride again, just play "games"
not for me thanks.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

why, when I've worked so hard for so long not to sit like a sack of s**t with a chair seat on a horse-would I want to start doing it again?

 

[sophielove]

I don't think it is appropriate for Parelli to be using the H&H forum as a marketing tool. KimSavvy is obviously a staffer and this is just more of the same old 'we're so superior, we know what we're talking about, Pat and Linda are amazing' b***ocks that we have come to expect from them. The thing is - if you look like a cult, sound like a cult, act like a cult . . . you probably ARE a cult! And the English as a race are intelligent enough not to be taken in by it all. After all, we've been working with horses since long before America was even discovered!!
There's no doubt that there is some good value in the Parelli home study programme, just as there is with Join-Up, Gawani Pony Boy, the Dancing with Horses man (Klaus von Hempfling?) etc., etc., There is no ONE way to be successful with horses. The Parelli mindset is all 'my way or the highway' . . . take the highway all the way back to America!!

 

[Castlecourtdaisy]

"i have seen to many good horses ruined by this method, used by people who have seen one demo and think they know it all. or the novices who are petrified of the animal they have overhorsed themselves with get drawn into this rubbish, never to ride again, just play "games" "

^ Even as a parelli fan, I can agree there.

Problem is, there are too many "parelli people" who frankly don't have a clue what they're doing. And too many who are robotic, and for example, in a panic, crouch desperately over their booklets as their horse is spinning around on its backlegs. I could go on...

I like to think I use my own initiative with the program, and use knowledge I have gained by myself and also from traditional people to help with training. And to be honest, the Parellis do try to encourage using initiative, but for every horseperson who can think, there's about ten who listen so hard they don't hear the shouting. Know what I mean? Probably not =P But I have met a LOT of parelli fanatics who actually have no respect from their horses, and don't get ANYTHING done. And this is not what the concepts suggest, but yes, its a home-study program, so yes, it's easy to screw it up.

I've also met a lot of parelli-snobs. At a horse show a while ago, I saw a rope halter on a horse, and asked the owner if she did parelli. The answer was "Yes. I'M on Level Three. What level are YOU on?" Then she looked my mare up and down (I was riding) and wrinkled her nose....Some people are so welcoming.

But anyway, personally I think my relationship with my horse has improved since starting parelli methods, and my horse is much more emotionally stable than she was before, and the concepts have helped me with other horses too. One of the reasons I like the methods is because they're fun! It's fun to run around like a kid with your horse cantering after you at liberty over jumps and stuff. It's fun to ride bareback and bridle-less. But I'm not saying it works for everyone. And ANY concept will only EVER work well with someone who actually thinks for themselves.

Oh I think someone said something about making horses play games when they don't want to or whatever? This is one thing that bothers me, because, I'm sorry, but how much do you think horses WANT to trot around in ever decreasing circles in some dusty old school day after day, with no change, and no days just to relax? Or how much they WANT you to yank on their mouths with strong bits such as pelhams and gags, or use restraints such as martingales and draw reins? You may argue that not every traditional person does this, and sure, that's definitely true, there are some great horsepeople out there who are traditional, so to speak, but it's the same stereotype.

I do agree with all of you out there who are saying that decades of horse experience is likely to be more valuable than a couple of years of following a home study program....but it depends on what you've learned! Clearly a lot of you have learned a great deal, so that's great! I hope as I carry on, I'll begin to catch up with you all. Yeah, I do parelli, but I still have non-parelli friends, I still have lessons with a traditional instructor, and believe it or not, unlike some of the unfortunate parelli-ites you have come across who are clearly letting the side down, I ride quite a lot, and do things like show jumping, cross country, skill at arms, TREC, etc. But I play on the ground too. Because my horse seems to enjoy it.

Hmm, so, basically, each to their own! You've all had your own experiences, and I appreciate your views. Bad experiences = bad opinions, and that's perfectly natural. I only hope that you'll meet the good kind of parelli "followers" sometime in the future, so you get both ends of the spectrum. There are some out there, I promise =)

 

[IrishCobsRule]

I have read many many debates on several forums about Parelli and others in the 'NH' world.
As with many H&H'ers I spend my days at work whishing I was at home in the yard, my spare time is totally given over to our horses or a horsey activity of some sort, I have horsey-related qualifications, read tons of books, been to demos seen the DVDs etc
And the self pro-claimed 'Natural Horsemanship' stuff has been included in my reading, demo attending and DVD watching along with every other conceivable bit of horsey related stuff going.
I have been to a Parelli demonstration and sat petrified in a crowd over 2,000 people who thought he was god! To me it was like being caught up in a cult where Parelli's methods alone were acceptable and 'traditional' methods were evil.
My opinion from the whole experience (stress MY opinion from MY experience) was that the people attending were following Parelli to the letter as other 'traditional' routes hadnt worked for them - most of those I spoke to came to horse ownership as adults and most seemed (again MY opinion) to have been slightly duped into buying an unsuitable horse. When you sit back and look at Parelli's methods it is clear why some of the less experienced people go all in - they try some of the games and realise that for the first time they are having a better experience with their horses.
Having read through the books it is clear to me that the early stuff is really about teaching people how to read their horses body language and how to stay safe and to think about how you move around animals and the quality of the touch you use - all good sommon sense advice - which very quickly shows positive results - most of us instinctively know horses appreciate quiet calm handling and soft petting rather than big thumping whacks - but remember some people need to be taught.
Unfortunately many Parelli fans get stuck at level 2 and are happy to stay there and extoll the virtues of Parelli / slag off 'traditional' riding methods - not complete the programme and progress their riding and get out competing or even happy hacking etc.
They get stuck where they do because of their own lack of understanding of what 'horsemanship' is.
We all know a great Horseman (or Horsewoman) in our every day lives- we all know one that we secretly aspire to be as good as. The ones you think of and think of as 'Naturally' talented. Have you ever asked these people what their secret is? I guarantee that more often than not they'll tell you that they continue to learn every day - my OH (who I consider to be gifted when it comes to horses) often says that he'll only stop learning about horses the day he dies.
I think that Parelli and other 'NH' methods can be useful for teaching people to behave more 'naturally' around horses BUT we all need to be aware that:
there is no one wonder method where animals are concerned
there is no quick fix solution to a particular problem
labelling such methods 'Natural Horsemanship' implies that everything else is 'UN-natural which is very very wrong.
To finish (sorry this is a bit rambling) - to me a natural horseman is someone who appears to have a natural gift - someone who has learnt their skill from from all the horses they've worked with and someone who admits that they are never finished learning.
I guess what Im really trying to say is that - none of us should nail our colours to the mast in favour of one method or another - I believe that the Parelli stuff is not for me (I find the 'fans' too scary for one!) - although through my reading, demo attending and dvd watching as with every other method I've looked at I hope I've learned something!