Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

do we know what these methods are?

Can't imagine them having much luck pinning a big horse down to get a bridle on... (assuming that's what's being suggested?)
 
brighteyes said:
Is anyone going to have a go at Catwalk's groom/s about the 'not nice' methods they used to get his bridle on behind the scenes?

(Daily, for seven weeks?)
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I haven't got involved in the discussion here, I don't think I have the strength atm, but have to respond to this.

The difference with Catwalk's groom is, we can hardly have a go as we don't know what the 'not nice' techniques are/were, if any...
 
Weezy said:
I will continue to fail to understand why people think it is a great idea to subject their horses to these spectacles - taking a horse out of his safe environment, subjecting them to a new handler, lights, music, crowds, and then persisting in trying to teach it something new just goes beyond my comprehension.

If you have a problem then get someone out, whether that be a nagsman or a NH fanatic or anything in between, and work on the horse in the environment where you, the owner/rider, will have to carry out whatever it is you are trying to improve.

The whole *doing it for the audience* thing will never sit well with me.
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Yes, it smacks too much of "circus" to me . . . I don't necessarily disapprove of NH . . . nor do I think all Parelli followers are either brainwashed or cruel . . . but I don't really see the need to turn teaching my horse something into a spectacle . . . nor do I really understand why or how there can only be ONE way to develop a loving, trusting bond with your horse.

Kali will follow me all over the school, the yard and his paddock without a leadrope on . . . changing direction when I do and stopping when I stop . . . he does it because he trusts me, not because I've ever introduced him to a stick with a rope on the end, or because I've played games with him. I've simply been firm but fair with him . . . given him time to understand what I'm asking him to do . . . and put down some pretty clear boundaries (not dragging me all over the yard being one of them).

Just because my methods aren't NH (or Parelli) doesn't mean they're wrong . . . but on the flip side, if some Parelli (or NH) practioners get results with their own horses, that's fine too.

To me, it's more about common sense . . . why the need to package and commercialize it?

P
 
brighteyes said:
Is anyone going to have a go at Catwalk's groom/s about the 'not nice' methods they used to get his bridle on behind the scenes?

(Daily, for seven weeks?)
Click to expand...

But the groom is not packaging it as natural horsemanship, giving demonstrations of it to the public, and charging a fortune. They admit that it's 'not nice' and are looking for a solution, unlike PP who proclaims his way *is* the solution.
 
brighteyes said:
Is anyone going to have a go at Catwalk's groom/s about the 'not nice' methods they used to get his bridle on behind the scenes?

(Daily, for seven weeks?)
Click to expand...

Perhaps, if a) I knew what those methods were, b) they had performed these methods for the sake of entertainment in front of a crowd of people who had paid to see them and c) if they were trying to ram down my throat the idea that if I didn't do things the way they did it made me less of a person as a result.

The difference, I think, is that RW and his grooms described their bridling efforts as "not nice" whereas Parelli describes his as "natural horsemanship" which clearly it's not.
 
Naturally: "I think, as others have said, that several/many/most of us understand the mechanics and psychology of what he did. As far as I can gather, he used something that would cause pain when the horse offered an unwanted behaviour, combined with something which would make it more difficult/impossible for the horse to get away in the first place. He used force and pain to flood the horse with the stimulus (bridle, hand/saddlepad). Having watched the highly edited video we are led to believe that the horse eventually submitted, having tried and exhausted every other option.

I just don't understand why he used those methods, when countless people (some of whom are on here) have achieved the same end result through time, patience and perseverance, and left the horses a lot better off mentally than I feel pat did."

WHY? Because he couldn't use time, patience and perseverance (over months possibly) in an arena in front of a paying audience. It's called either "instant gratification" or "show business" depending on how cynical you are feeling.

P
 
Just wanted to add my thoughts after having read the entire thread....

Tieing a horses leg up IMO is never right. Even if you try and understand the "reason" behind it.... That being that it makes the horse think it's going to die. Oh my goodness!!!! How can ANYONE think this is right? Comparing that to someone holding a horses leg up so they can oil the feet i totally different. If they still couldn't do it (lets face it, if someone had "just held up Catwalks leg" to put his bridle on they wouldn't have suceeded would they!) I wouldn't tie my horses leg up to put hoof oil on!

I have and have used a commanche calmer. I use it as a twitch (very very rarely, I can't even remember the last time I used it), as it is easier to use that a traditional one. I have NEVER marked my horses gum using one. If that happened, they were using it incorrectly. If there were putting their entire body weight on it they certainly were! You only have to use gently pressure on it for it to have the desired effect. (FYI you can buy commanche halters in most tack shops and in most of the well known magazines)

I have known horses used in MR demos (although not really a follower myself. I'm more common sense!), and NONE of them were worked with before the demo! They are put around a round pen a few hours before by a 3rd party to be checked over thoroughly by a vet.

Many years ago my old instructor put a buck stop on my pony who would turn him inseide out. It NEVER caused him any damage whatsoever. Not a mark on him, and he learnt very quickly not to buck, an he never did it again. They are not barbaric in any way.
 
muffinino said:
Depends on what methods they used, I suppose. We don't know at the moment, not even hearsay, so have nothing to have a go at.
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When TrecInWales wrote "you would not like the techniques grooms use to get a bridle on the horse..." I assumed he/she had inside knowldedge. TrecInWales, could you clarify please?
 
fburton said:
When TrecInWales wrote "you would not like the techniques grooms use to get a bridle on the horse..." I assumed he/she had inside knowldedge. TrecInWales, could you clarify please?
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Good point. Although TrecInWales may be wary of being defamatory if what they say is untrue.

Having said that, as others have pointed out, at least RW and his grooms have admitted that the methods are ''not nice'' and are not suggesting that it is a solution to the problem nor using their methods in a demo.
 
JenJ said:
But the groom is not packaging it as natural horsemanship, giving demonstrations of it to the public, and charging a fortune. They admit that it's 'not nice' and are looking for a solution, unlike PP who proclaims his way *is* the solution.
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To be fair, I'm not sure that he does do that himself - although one would be forgiven for getting the impression "Parelli" is the solution from his followers. A subtle difference.
 
martlin said:
I haven't got involved in the discussion here, I don't think I have the strength atm, but have to respond to this.

The difference with Catwalk's groom is, we can hardly have a go as we don't know what the 'not nice' techniques are/were, if any...
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We usually see things along the same lines - if there was no real trouble, why was the horse in there to have the bridling problem sorted in the first place?
 
new-here said:
First of all, you mention the metal clip. That is used after the horse has been asked a few times to back up. If he doesn't back up, then the rythm in the rope causes the clip to smack their chin, yes. But look at it this way .. when another horse asks your horse to back up, it will put it ears back and then either bite or kick. That is essentially what the smack of the clip is - a horse bite.
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This is one of my main objections to all this Parelli nonsense. My horse knows darn well that I'm not a horse. How stupid do these people think horses are, anyway? I am not training my horse by pretending to be a horse - I am training my horse by giving clear cues to her so she can respond accordingly. And if you train a horse to back up by twirling ropes about their head, if someone who handles the horse in the usual way tries to work with them, both the horse and the handler are hopelessly confused.

In addition, there is so much contradiction in this stuff. Ropes are tossed about and the horse is expected to stand nicely and not be alarmed but a rope attached to the ubiquitous rope halter is flipped about and the horse is supposed to back up. Which is it? Stand or move?

The horse is supposed to know how to "move away from pressure" but it is also supposed to stand like a rock when you wave tarps at it. However, it's supposed to move if you wave a plastic bag on a stick. Again, which is it?

And of course, no one can explain any of it because those doing it are "higher up in the program" (sounds like Amway for heaven's sake) so you have to take it on faith that it all makes sense.

I will no doubt be told that I have it all wrong and that I don't understand any of it because I haven't done it. But my horse is just fine without it all and has the added benefit of understanding when someone other than me is working with her.
 
I contacted whw about the last linda parrelli video with the half blind horse, I am afraid I never heard anything from it.
 
I only read the first page in that US thread but this bit made me laugh outloud:

'Nooooo, we just go straight to "he's misbehaving so let's have Pat Pepperoni beat the **** out of him"'

I shall now refer to PP as Pat Pepperoni!! HAHA :D
 
Munchkin said:
Perhaps, if a) I knew what those methods were, b) they had performed these methods for the sake of entertainment in front of a crowd of people who had paid to see them and c) if they were trying to ram down my throat the idea that if I didn't do things the way they did it made me less of a person as a result.

The difference, I think, is that RW and his grooms described their bridling efforts as "not nice" whereas Parelli describes his as "natural horsemanship" which clearly it's not.
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It could well be argued that ANY form of horsemanship is not natural. From breeding them to types and colours to the stabling and riding.

I still want to see the whole sessionunedited and in close up, slow motion and every other sort of under the microscope angle with commentary by PP as to what is going on and why. Then I can make my own mind up.

As for the vet saying the horse was unfit to compete due to mouth injury, well, that could just be a politically correct answer. I'm wondering if the vet checks every showjumper's mouth for injury after each round. Some of the mouthpieces around and the attached fixings are easily capable of serious damage.

Having heard the above (roughly) said about the video

*(PP) nearly kicks him (the horse) in the head

*the horse is doped because it is dangling (someone is doping my horse post work every day without me noticing then!)

*and the horse still has the gum line in in the stable

(No, it was a thin line through the mouth to simulate the bit, which was part of the issue and to which a bit was attached (and held up) to simulate the weight of the bit but not induce the teeth-clanging effect in taking the bridle on and off)

it's no surprise all sorts of conclusions are being drawn.
 
brighteyes said:
It could well be argued that ANY form of horsemanship is not natural. From breeding them to types and colours to the stabling and riding.
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Totally agree. But this is called Parelli Natural Horsemanship.

I still want to see the whole sessionunedited and in close up, slow motion and every other sort of under the microscope angle with commentary by PP as to what is going on and why. Then I can make my own mind up.
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Ditto. However I'm confused as to why this is being kept from public view, and why the need was felt to post a disclaimer in case anyone posted it on YouTube. It arouses suspicion.

As for the vet saying the horse was unfit to compete due to mouth injury, well, that could just be a politically correct answer. I'm wondering if the vet checks every showjumper's mouth for injury after each round. Some of the mouthpieces around and the attached fixings are easily capable of serious damage.
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Absolutely. However, the injury of the horse goes against everything Parelli preaches.

Having heard the above (roughly) said about the video

*(PP) nearly kicks him (the horse) in the head

*the horse is doped because it is dangling (someone is doping my horse post work every day without me noticing then!)

*and the horse still has the gum line in in the stable

(No, it was a thin line through the mouth to simulate the bit, which was part of the issue and to which a bit was attached (and held up) to simulate the weight of the bit but not induce the teeth-clanging effect in taking the bridle on and off)
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I have never taken issue with anything seen in the [edited] video. Nor do I think that he kicked the horse in the head. As for doping it - it was probably just exhausted from the previous night's events. We'll never know.

it's no surprise all sorts of conclusions are being drawn.
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Quite. You'd think they'd post damn the video and prove us all wrong, eh? ;)
 
I have also forwarded it to the RSPCA Inspectorate, with an explanation that there was alleged horse abuse, an alleged injury to the horse, allegedly confirmed by a vet, non-action by those in charge of the event, and that the whole thing was videoed. I am sure that with the outrage being expressed, an outcome WILL be achieved. Does anyone know who the vet was ? Showjumpers and Parelli are NOT above the law in this country.

I implore the peeps that witnessed this abuse to contact the RSPCA and WHW, as they will need to take statements from you.

sm x
 
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