Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside

Thank You. I have always hated the "them vs us" from both sides. both pre parelli and post parelli. I wish I could tell "all" but sufice it to say, I know first hand the feelings of those on the outside, and now those on the inside.

I do have a calculator and know how to use it. lots of $$ was coming thier way, and soon lots will be leaving too. sad.

I can't remember who said it or on what page, good gosh my eyes are buggin out from staring at the screen all day. but, rarely does anyone say anything that truly causes me to stop and ponder. I mean one that will make me think about it for months, and read people with thier horses seriously. as i do pay attention.

but something about asserting dominance is a self fullfilling prophecy, and sets you up to always have to assert it. I will say, that is food for thought. In my experiences, I can't agree with that off the bat, but will pay attention to see if I think it could be true. I would at first sight say, no, but maybe in some instances it could be true. parelli doesn't really focus on "alpha" while it is the basis, the focus is on being a good LEADER not a DOMNIATOR. of course one would never know based on the current goings on. but LEADER is the word of choice, and does give one a different mind set when working with the horse than the mind set of dominance. word play does effect humans, and often changing one word in your vocabulary, can change your whole life.:cool:
 
Troylimbo1 said:
Can I just highlight the section where you say you were 'appalled' that you saw Monty Roberts using a bucking strap in the same way as Pat Parelli.
He certainly DOES NOT put rope into the horses mouths - he actually ties it from the saddle to the head piece of the bridle so that the horse cannot lower his head to allow him to buck.
Mr Roberts is not even in the same league as this plonker (putting it mildly)
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The rope was certainly under the top lip of the horse in the demo that I saw with Monty Roberts. The horse belonged to a friend of a friend, he was a violent bucker. They asked to buy the bucking strap afterwards. They were sold it at some extortionate price just as a long bit of string as apparently bucking straps that go in the mouth are illegal here. Probably 10 years ago.
 
I'd just like to say thank you to tounge in cheek for posting. Parelli is often villified on this board - and I think its good to see a well thought out view from someone who is obviously into it very deeply

I have seen very good results with Parelli/other NH methods. I am not the type of person to join any one club as it were, and would never get involved in Parelli in a million years. BUT a friend is very into Parelli and I have taken a few odds and ends of what she has shown me and I have stored that knowledge for later use. I may never use it, but I may come accross a horse one day where I think it is worth a try. Many people would be surprised that they use Parelli techniques themselves. Its just knowledge many of us have and use which has been rebranded and packaged. I don't want to reinvent the wheel and I am happy to take any knowldge someone can give me whether its called Parelli, Natural horsemanship or anything else

I am really surprised no video has surfaced as yet. I am pretty horrified and have a nasty feeling the reality of the video may be worse than just reading about it :(

Just edited to say things we often do anyway shouldn't be called Parelli techniques as they were around long before Parelli rebranded them and many of which I was taught at the pony club many many moons ago!
 
tongue~n~cheek

Brilliant, candid and refreshingly honest post, which is both helpful and reassuring. Thank you for taking the time to join HHO and not only disclose your association with PNH but promise us that not everyone follows P&L blindly and without question, whatever they do.
 
tongue~n~cheek said:
but something about asserting dominance is a self fullfilling prophecy, and sets you up to always have to assert it. I will say, that is food for thought. In my experiences, I can't agree with that off the bat, but will pay attention to see if I think it could be true. I would at first sight say, no, but maybe in some instances it could be true. parelli doesn't really focus on "alpha" while it is the basis, the focus is on being a good LEADER not a DOMNIATOR. of course one would never know based on the current goings on. but LEADER is the word of choice, and does give one a different mind set when working with the horse than the mind set of dominance. word play does effect humans, and often changing one word in your vocabulary, can change your whole life.:cool:
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Re the above.. Don't you think though that when you bond with a horse (by the way, I have no experience whatsoever with Parelli or NH etc) that the horse just trusts you? For example, I took on a chestnut mare unseen who came with an awful reputation but once we "bonded" (and I know this sounds desperately Enid Blyton) but my horse really does love and trust me but no one else. So now I can hack her alone, ride with her stable mate but take her off elsewhere during that hack or hunt etc.

What I am trying to say is, that whether you dress it up as Parelli, NH or any other name, surely it comes down to empathy, personality and a general, deep down "way" with horses or as others have put it - general common horse sense?

I wonder then if that can be taught or does it come naturally if you are either brought up with horses or have a general animal (whether that be horses, dogs or whatever) sync with those animals?

I make no bones about the fact that I have working gun dogs, horses who hunt etc - ie they all have the job they were bred for. And when they come to me as puppies, new horses, then I set the rules and the boundaries from the word go - the animals know where they stand, they love me for it and for the rest of their adult life they give me no problems whatsoever!

So in conclusion I rather feel that this money making game is so unecessary and a good horseman come naturally. Do you really need to assert dominance or "alpha" status or is this what I am doing without realising it?
 
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Hollycat said:
Many people would be surprised that they use Parelli techniques themselves. Its just knowledge many of us have and use which has been rebranded and packaged. I don't want to reinvent the wheel and I am happy to take any knowldge someone can give me whether its called Parelli, Natural horsemanship or anything else

Just edited to say things we often do anyway shouldn't be called Parelli techniques as they were around long before Parelli rebranded them and many of which I was taught at the pony club many many moons ago!
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I agree with what you have put! Most of us in the UK dont see the need to follow a programme that was originally designed to eradicate traditional USA based horsemanship practises resulting from poor breaking processes and rodeos riders being deemed as horseman.
In the UK our relationship with the horse is no longer established on agression or brutality meaning many of the lessons the Ps are trying to preach here are irrelevant as our history is so different.
Since Anna Sewell we have recognised the true beauty and fragility of the horse and the basic problem as I see it is that the averagehorseowner in the UK uses many of the same tecniques of listening and working with their horses anyway.
I resent being told by P followers that following a traditional approach is cruel, disrespectful and unkind when it is nothing of the kind. I am quite capable of listening to all of my horses and do not need someone to tell me they have a right or left brain!
 
I don't think they should be outlawed, because that would outlaw a lot of the everyday things that most people manage to do with their horses anyway. I would like to see P&L knocked off their pedestal though, sooner rather than later.
 
I am now wondering if this is a culture difference? Perhaps, as they started, that these methods are wholeheartedly embraced in America but not so welcomed in the UK, where we have a completely different outlook on horses
 
Wow! You were'nt Joking bright eyes when you said this had stired up a hornets nest.

I started this thread originally to ask other attendees at the demo on their interpretation of what was seen.

I am in no way connected with Parelli. I am an equine dental practitioner who uses equine psycology learned from working with personally and studying the methodologies of a great many horsemen and horsewomen around the world, Pat Parelli being one of the many. My reasons for attending this particular demo included, I knew the horse involved was EXTREEMLEY head shy and hard to bridle, which is a problem i often help people and horses with (as an EDT who specialises in working with horses who have always previously had to be sedated I often have to help horses with such problems before I can use my Speculum.....or gag on them) and as such held a particular interest to me. Also, my wife had never seen Pat live and she was interested to see one of the Horseworlds great Masters at work. (having already seen another one, Edward Gall give a demonstration earlier in the day.....and YES....one can compare the two because they are BOTH truley GREAT horsemen). So seeing as we were competing our horse there at Stoneleigh that day and were staying the night, we went along. Also we had mentioned a problem we experience with our own horse and were asked if we would be prepared to let Pat help us with him in the demo to be held on the Saturday night, an offer to which we said yes with no hesitation whatsoever...because, due to the nature of the problem we were experiencing sometimes (he explodes when exposed to crowds clapping and to PA systems) with Cody this type of scenario is exactly what I have been wanting to create for some time.

I will give my account of what happened sometime on Sunday on here. I have just finished reading every single post and some of what is said is thought provoking.....some is just pur twaddle.

watch this space.
 
Ok, yes some people have a natural way around animals, my child is one of them. the wildest horse I had was trusting of my child instantly, and also a few adults, yet also, ran like heck from others. then out the barn. also see people who have never had a lesson, or read books, or had a grandpa that was a cowboy, just have a 'knack", other, one of my students in particular, while good being instructed, cannot read a horse or it's reactions to save her life. her husband, new to horses by a few months, totally gets it, but is, well lets just say he'd be beet up on the school yard. no athletic ability what so ever.

yes the UK has a culture drenched in good horsemanship. we here in the states, not so much. but let me say, anti parelli is alive and thriving here as well. if not worse. we gotta live with those cowboys everyday, and see atrocities that y'all would want to put a bullet in your own head to keep from watching it. we still have wild horse racing, youtube search it (sharkonline, you will cry for weeks. we cant even get people to stop this, and can't even get animal lovers to sign a stupid petition to ban it, yet they were all on board for anti-rolkur and anti-parelli petition. these races KILL horses, and only a few are willing to put a name on a piece of paper. sick. though I may not agree with pat did yesterday, need video to make up my mind, from where I sit, it wasn't abuse. there are far worse crimes that need to be stopped before parelli.

I agree at how ALOT of people would be shocked to know they ARE infact inately 'natural" with a horse. there is no such thing as common sense with a horse. first you would have to agree that all people have common sense to begin with.;) I can see people not needed it as a program, but to ban it all together is excessive as well.

I will agree that horses, once bonded will usually jump the moon for you. but how do you bond with a horse? wouldn't you agree that what ever creates a bond, is right? trust me when I say, Nh'ers hear this from me too. I am anti hate, pro live and let live.

I truly am sorry for anyone who was acosted by an NH'er as I was one of them moons ago. it isn't right, and pat and linda niether suggest it or condone it.

I will say that while i may not agree with the method or extent to which it was applied. I could probably watch the video and understand it. the person who should be held accountable are the people who created this issue with this horse, not the guy who fixes it.

so many people are so quick to stone pat, that they really don't bother to try to learn. doesn't make it easy with no explanation. that is completely thier fault. p&L's.

thank you again for a warm welcome, and I hope to be a good will ambassador to bridge the gap over the sea of misunderstanding, hate, ridicule, and difference of opinions.
 
Greetings! Yes, this is my first post, I got the link off another website and have read all the posts. I just want to note that here in America, most people do NOT go gaga over Pat Parelli. The primary customers are middle-aged women who are afraid of their horses.

I was just talking last night with a gal in this category. She has been "studying" Parelli and of course now fancies herself a trainer. She said that she was working on the 7 games with her horse and there was a sudden change in him; he became aggressive to the point where she needed to get out of the round pen. Both I and another gal commented that the Parelli people that we have met tend to have pushy horses, confused horses, and overall, horses that they do not ride.

I would certainly never count Pat Parelli as one of the world's great horsemen. I would, however, count him as an excellent marketer and salesperson. Wish I'd figured out a way to charge a ton of money for a $6.95 whip by just calling it a carrot stick.
 
one thing to add, here in the states , we also have a government that is OK with sending horses to slaughter for meat, especially our beloved mustangs. horses are, for most intents and purposes here, a nuisance, except to those who have them.

i disagree with majority of parelli people are middle aged women who don't ride. one thing that really gets me, on both sides, is the willingness to state something as a fact, that they know nothing about. :( I know ALOT of parelli people. ALOT

less than a quarter are middle aged women. there are a ton of kids. and good ones too. they amaze me everyday. I wish I had known then, what I know now. there are a surprising number of men as well. considering we women tend to dominate the horse world, at least here any ways, it stands to reason that a good number of them would be middle aged. I also saw a great audtion of a 70+yo woman just learning horses, passing riding bareback and bridless. from my experience, a great deal of middle aged women are afraid of thier horses regardless of the method they use. parelli at least helps them! research before you speak:cool:
 
No need to research; here in the midwest state in which I live, that's the audience. One gal lives just about 1/4 mile from me. I've known her since 1998. She does Parelli and has never ridden any of her 3 horses. I've gone to some of the Parelli presentations and although I did not conduct a scientific analysis of the crowd, I simply looked around that that's what I saw; middle-aged women. And you're right, good for those that can take something from any presentation and use it to further their equine handling knowledge.

We do quite a bit with our horses, during a year we ride with hundreds of people at various events. I've never run into anyone at any of those who states they are a Parelli follower. As I noted in my previous post, I was talking about people who I have actually MET. Not everyone in the world who follows Parelli. I'm more than willing to believe that some people are able to use these (rather common actually) techniques to develop better skills with their horses. My guess is that many of the most successful use a bit from various programs, and then also ride their horses.

I think that what many people are skeptical about is the cult-like following; good to know that not everyone in the Parelli circle is like that, but you do have to realize that for the general population of horse owners, that's the perception. It's great that you, a Parelli practitioner, came on here to challenge that notion.

edit to add: I just saw that I'm a "foal"! LOL that's kind of cute!
 
I hear ya. unfortunately for me, as a parelli follower, I am all too aware of the general populations perception of parelli. for the longest time, all my rope halters were black, as to not draw too much attention to myself. My friends shunned me, ridiculed me, and even stopped talking to me. not because I put them down, because I didn't, just because they hated parelli. I have spent ten years hearing the perception and defending it. You are far from the first to talk about middle age non riding women. My favorite is the circus view. mainly because, what the heck is so wrong with THAT? circus horses are cool and well trained. few of us could could train circus horses like that, so honestly, it's a compliment;) I have heard them all, including personal stories about pat from people who have gotten the story from a friend of a friend, who never met pat or anyone he knew. and still I am prejudged the second anyone see's that carrot stick. but I don't care anymore. I am good enough, that my skills speak for them selves. either you respect me or you don't. be it a preconcieved notion or actually bothering to get to know me. I dont shove parelli down anyones throat, but you wouldn't want to run into me these days, and put me down to my face, you just might get a whack with my carrot stick;) I don't dish it, so I wont take it. I talk big smack, really a pudycat:rolleyes::o

Here's a mind bender for you all. though I am a die hard parelli person, i still follow other clinicians, still recieve my dressage today, and learn from anywhere I can. I am not unique, many club members are just like me. what the program does, that is so great, is axactly what people put down pat and linda for. it takes eons of horsemanship, melted together, and put into a logical sequence for people to learn from. he freely admits he didnt invent this stuff. the only thing they lay claim too is horsenalities. which BTW is awesome. I can peg a horse now from a great distance, and know what strategies will work best for it. it has yet to fail me. the only failure is in reading the horse wrong. which again comes down to person aptitude. if a person is enept at one thing, they likely will be enept at another.

again, some of these kids flat out amaze me. I admire them, respect them, and envy them. they are smart, with horses. they are still immature in other areas and have alot to learn about interpersonal relationships, though that is not exclusive to kids:rolleyes:

it is a shame, that more people cannot see the good in it, for those who use it, follow it, live by it, what ever, and vice versa. natural horsemanship is nothing more than a collection of astute observations by great horse people over the centuries.

speaking of what this side may think of as morons, new people to parelli still learning the ropes, of waaaaay back in the day, when I first started dressage. I had book by charles de kunfy, I read every word of it, and went out to "do it'. no results. read it again, same. studied it. same. I chucked it into the bookshelf and moved on. some 6 yrs later after studying under one of steffan peters students, who was awesome horseman, terrible human being. and finally getting the 'classical" way. starting from scratch again. and I finally learned how to truly ride a horse, how to be one with it. it was magical, but that's another story, anyways I picked up the book again by accident and started reading it. it was everything I had just learned. SAY WHAT? I was totatlly perplexed at how I did NOT get this CLEAR message in the book, that literally jumped off the pages to me that day. I read the whole thing in a day, and understood everyword of it, and picked up some new tips as well. it dawned on me. no matter how good the teacher, how clear the message, you will not get it without a fundamental understanding of the basics. parelli does try to set things up, starting with basics, and building upon knowlege from there. it is logical and well thought out. I don't have to spend thousands of dollars a year getting lessons, to learn only 1/8 of what is one package that they sell for a couple hundred bucks. and i can re-read it, watch it, at my leisure, and usually pick up something I had missed or forgotton. you can't recall lessons that way. don't get me wrong, have nothing against lessons. give 'em myself every week, and get them too.

parelli is geared toward general horsemanship. they are just now expanding this into fundementals of performance, and linda is just now learning from walter zettle, something I learned years ago, cant state how long, but long.

there are things about the organization that i hate. i don't use the word lightly. i had been sitting on the fence myself about becoming an instructor as I would have to stop teaching main stream riding(discipline not important). not pleased about it, but finally decided I would go for it anyways, as i truly believe in thier program. but then the last year happened, and I am now at a loss. to say the least I am spooked. IF I ever do decide to become an instructor, it will not be a descision I take lightly and will have wieghed things out carefully. for now it is on hold, and all I can say is 'whew' for now. i trust pat that he did what he thought was best for that horse. I just don't trust his judgement for the when and where. on the one hand, it was brave and honest of him to not hide behind some barn and do this, but bravery isnt everything either.:cool:
 
Well it is long past my bed time, I have a big horse show tomorrow, will be gone all day. horses washed, trailer finally packed. i want to thank each and everyone of you for your kindness, generosity, and openmindedness, to allow me to speak my mind freely, and share my views with you. Hopefully, I have given you a glimpse into the world that I live in, love and enjoy.

I just want to leave you all with one lasting thought.

Humans, generally speaking in broad terms, have a need for belonging. to be a part of something bigger than themselves. to not feel alone in the world. Parelli as well as traditional sports, provides those that do not have dreams/goals of competing, a place to belong. a place where they can come and share thier achievments with other people who enjoy the same things as them. you can be a part of a large comunity, and make friends from other countries even though you may be one of few NH'ers, who actually reside in your country. Like this forum, the club that many think is cult like, is just a meeting place to share, just like any other forum. yes there are threads bashing the outsiders, but is usually squashed quickly by another member. we really do try to be fair, and in all reality, the outsiders out number us greatly. everyone has thier own path to follow, and thier own lessons to be learned. not just with horses, but people too.

I think back to my youth, in my room in town, drifting off to sleep dreaming of horses. horse pictures all over my walls, doodles of horses on all my school books. hoping that someday, i could have a horse of my own. when driving with my mom through the hillside, I would imagine I was riding a horse in the field we were driving by, cantering and jumping all the fences. i would and still do, get whiplash if I actually ever saw a horse. My friend and I would be playing like we were horses at recess on the playgound, while other girls were already worrying about what to wear. I wish I could speak to that little girl and let her know, don't worry, someday your dreams will come true. someday you will have more horses than you know what to do with. you wont go to the olympics like you will later dream of doing, but this dream that you dream tonight, WILL come true. you will have amazing relationships with horses, achieve things you will never dream possible, and meet so many friends along the way, you wont know what to do with yourself.

isn't that what we all would want to say to our little girl selves? Not that we will grow up to condemn others because they love horses differently than we do. that little girl would cry if you told her that. some will have to tell thier little girl that it will be a long time, somewhere around middle age, and even though you will grow up to be afraid, your dream will come true too.:cool:
 
Oh dear, I just posted a huge comment and forgot I hadn't signed in. :(

Now I'm too tired to try to post it again!

tongue~n~cheek basically said everything I would have said, so just read those posts and pretend they're mine ;)

I only just joined to I could write a little something here, and I remain annonymous because I don't wanna be hunted down by the Parelli Police along with tongue~n~cheek, so please don't make assumptions about me!

I'm 16 years old and have been studying Parelli for nearly 3 years. I am in no way brainwashed. I'm not a sheep, never have been, never will be. ;)

Before Parelli, I had an awesome pony, like mostly all of you do, and I had a great relationship with her, like all of you do. I am well aware that you dont have to do Parelli (or any NH for that matter) to achieve great results and find a truly unique bond with your horses! My current horse is stabled at a yard with over 50 horses and I am definately not the only one who has an almost unbreakable bond with my equine partner.

The yard at which my horse lives is populated by lots and lots of different people. I have never once forced any of them in to any of the methods I now use and generally do everything I can to ensure that I dont unintentionally spook any of their horses while I'm playing with mine. Many of the people there are really amazing and I would never, ever consider myself to be any better than them. There are some silly kids there who like to try and copy what I'm doing, but as long as I make sure to tell them when they're being unsafe or attempting to do something ridiculously stupid, everythings great. I always try to set a good example by always wearing a hat and being as safe as possible (usually safer than any one else!).

Up untill 3 years ago I used traditional methods and all the "common horse sense" I had gathered through helping out at the riding stables and riding other peoples horses along with bringing on my own. I would be a hypocrite to say anything against any one here, or anywhere else.

I can't really comment on anything that happened at FOTH as I wasn't there, but I will re-assure you that there are a LOT of questions flying about the Savvy Club Forum regarding the matter at hand.

I'm sorry for any spelling or grammar mistakes, I'm tired, have sore eyes and am pretty worried about the future of Parelli.

Thank you to everyone who is remaining open minded!! :D

xx

P.S oopsy, I think this post is longer than the original one. :o
 
tongue~n~cheek said:
I think back to my youth, in my room in town, drifting off to sleep dreaming of horses. horse pictures all over my walls, doodles of horses on all my school books. hoping that someday, i could have a horse of my own. when driving with my mom through the hillside, I would imagine I was riding a horse in the field we were driving by, cantering and jumping all the fences. i would and still do, get whiplash if I actually ever saw a horse. My friend and I would be playing like we were horses at recess on the playgound, while other girls were already worrying about what to wear. I wish I could speak to that little girl and let her know, don't worry, someday your dreams will come true. someday you will have more horses than you know what to do with. you wont go to the olympics like you will later dream of doing, but this dream that you dream tonight, WILL come true. you will have amazing relationships with horses, achieve things you will never dream possible, and meet so many friends along the way, you wont know what to do with yourself.
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TnC, that made me cry.... so beautifully written and so true for so many of us. Thank you for your truly enlightening, interesting and eloquent contributions to this thread. I wish you all the luck in the world with your future endeavours.

What an interesting thread this is! I do hope some video from Stoneleigh surfaces soon, but I fear it may not.

I have no personal experience of doing Parelly. I know one person who is a whole-hearted devotee - evangelical in the extreme. She just happens to be middle-aged and scared of her horse who she hardly ever rides. But that is by the by. I don't mind whose methods anyone follows - I enjoy discussing and learning from different people all the time.

What I do mind is that she says categorically that anyone who doesn't follow Parelli is cruel and an evil predator to horses. I suspect this statement is rooted in her own insecurities and lack of experience, rather than anything Parelli says, but it still annoys the heck out of me. I know I can't get into a discussion with her, as there is no 'other side' for her. So we no longer talk horses when we see each other.
 
Actually I am over middle age and not a woman. I believe in riding as much as I can.

There are fanatics both that follow Parelli and just as many that don't. If one can weed through the "pur twaddle" as ponydentist so aptly described, some people may learn something.

Parelli techniques have taught me a great deal. But even he freely admits it was something he learned from others.I have a great relationship / partnership with all of our horses.

I know I won't make any converts by posting on here. One can only make that decision for yourself.
 
Personally I have never followed Parelli, so I'm not really qualified to comment. But I was disturbed and angry when I watched the video of Linda Parelli with the horse that was blind in one eye, which put me off the whole method completely. The most important factor when dealing with other sentient beings has to be compassion, I didn't witness anything of the sort in that video.

I'm not saying that there may be some useful stuff, but my fear is that you will get somebody with a headshy horse going to the demo who immediately thinks that twitching and tying up legs is a good idea, when there may be any number of reasons why the horse has developed this behaviour. It has the potential to open the doors to 'approved abuse'.

I think the moral has to be the old saying of 'make no man your guru' and to always question everything, if it doesn't sit right then don't do it!

7HL Your sig states:- "Horsemanship can be obtained naturally through communication, understanding and psychology, instead of mechanics, force and fear"

Where would you say this ties in with what happened at the demo?


Regarding the comments about the buckstopper, I think the difference is that it only comes into force whan the horse bucks, and after a horse I rode was pts as he had hurt so many people with extreme bucking, I can only say that i wish I knew about it back then.

Oh, and I am a middle aged woman! ;)
 
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Is there still not a video avalible of what happened at the festival of the horse?? I would like to see it to be able to make up my own mind.
 
Troylimbo1 said:
Can I just highlight the section where you say you were 'appalled' that you saw Monty Roberts using a bucking strap in the same way as Pat Parelli.
He certainly DOES NOT put rope into the horses mouths - he actually ties it from the saddle to the head piece of the bridle so that the horse cannot lower his head to allow him to buck.
Mr Roberts is not even in the same league as this plonker (putting it mildly)
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Agree 100%

Please do not tar all nh methods with those described by mr parelli on that unfortunate stallion.

nh methods ( imo no the parelli kind ) involve understanding the horse and speaking its language, and politely insisting as its superior but never forcing, as it seems here!

I am ashamed reading this post that mr parelli is classified as a natural horseman as natural it is not! Rover Maxwell on the other hand now he is a good example as is endo, but I am yet to see a good example of parelli does not seem natural at all!!!
 
Since I was not there personally to see it I can not address specifics.

Do I object to twitching.... NO

Do I object to hobbling .... NO

Do I object to laying a horse down ... NO

All said, it depends on the reason and who is doing it.

I know Pat usually doesn't take stallions at his demos. They take extra care when working with them.

My understanding is he did everything out in front of everyone. Unlike some trainers that might have taken the horse out of view to do what he did. I am sure that he said somewhere during what was presented that it took special skills and experience to work with a horse that he was presented with. And wasn't for everyone to do.

No where do I believe the was any "abuse" or harm done to the horse.
 
Without repeating what has already been said. Is this not at the heart of the issue and is to a great extent a cultural one.
7HL said:
Since I was not there personally to see it I can not address specifics.

Do I object to twitching.... NO

Do I object to hobbling .... NO

Do I object to laying a horse down ... NO

.
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Everyone with an iota of common sense will know that working with a stallion will be more problematic. Both NH and non-NH followers would agree with that. It has has been said here the horse had a very longstanding and deeprooted level of headshyness - why therefore use this horse to demonstrate? It is obvious such degree of issue will require much more time than this type of demo will allow.
Once some degree of progress had been achieved either give up and STOP before your ego gets hold of you and a battle of wills ensues.
 
7HL said:
Since I was not there personally to see it I can not address specifics.

Do I object to twitching.... NO

Do I object to hobbling .... NO

Do I object to laying a horse down ... NO

All said, it depends on the reason and who is doing it.

But all those things involve mechanics, force and fear? The very things that you are supposedly against:confused:
Click to expand...
 
Scuse me but I was there and it was IMO abuse.

Lets be sensible here. This horse was not going to kill anybody. He was not unsafe or putting anyone in any danger, he quite simply would not allow anyone to put a bridle on him and the kind of treatment he recieved was so uncalled for that I for one curled up into a ball on my chair, in horror at what I was seeing. That was NOT NH!!!!

It is all very inconvienient for poor Mr Whittaker of course and it probably makes him very late going into the ring, when one of his difficult horses refuses to be bridled tut tut tut?

Mmmmmmm,....now what is that Pat has said about competition horses being pushed to young and to hard?????
 
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