Parelli, don't know much about it, why are so people so anti it?

I've been to two Monty Roberts clinics and liked his way with horses enormously. My father was a horse whisperer before they were called horse whisperers (except by gypsies) and a lot of what he taught me 50-60 years ago is echoed by MR. The Parellis, on the other hand, make me shudder. I Can't even watch them on TV. Hate their methods, and would never let any horse of mine withn a 100 miles of them
 
LOL Well, that's quite interesting as when I attended my first Parelli clinic around 1998 everything that was said made me think "That's what ....used to say back when I was learning in the 1950s!"!!! I do think that many snap judgements are made by people who only see one snapshot in time, such as the catwalk incident. From various posts here I gather very few know, let alone understand the points that I made earlier, re the keys, responsibilites, principles etc. So I would suggest that some real research be made by the op to find out where he/she stands. After all my opinion doesn't matter, it's the conclusion that the op comes to that matters. And there is a lot of information, and misinformation, on websites. And opinions are coloured by the conceptions of those who post.
 
My problem with all this NH stuff is the insta horseman malarky. Most of what they teach is in fact common sense and how people have practiced for many years. But somehow that's been changed to: if you don't follow so and so you are an abuser. You break horses by bucking them out and can never have a special bond like the rest of us.

I watched one woman last year go on about how pleased she was she sent away her horses to be broken by a Parelli person. This is the first time non of her starters bucked. I laughed, couldn't help it. She says well who do you use. I said me. She asked how I stayed on when they bucked. I said they don't buck and they don't. Not a trumped up lie. Kept on about whose methods I used. MINE. Then she yells to her daughter, show them how he stops honey. Reaches down with both hands on one rein from the canter and pulls horse's head to her knee. Yup. She asks how much horses stop. By saying whoa. Really, that basic. She says well warmbloods are different than ponies and draughts. Insinuating I'm some sort of person who doesn't know any different. What do you have? Warmbloods and TB's.

Insinuating I'm an abuser, can't ride, and haven't seen the light because I don't follow a certain big name method is what gets me. And it's the teachers passing on this false information.

I've learned from a variety of people over the years. They've all been excellent horseman including cowboys. They treated horses with respect and never took shortcuts or used deprivation of any kind to achieve the desired effect. They don't have packaged DVD's or teach masses. Most are too busy with their day to day workings with horses.

Terri
 
PNH/Parelli, like NH is generally just good basic horsemanship principles. There is a lot of ignorance about what it involves and jealousy because it has been marketed heavily and has been profitable.

I have used PNH and NH principles, together with traditional english/european principles (and really they are not that different) and the things I read on here about it just continue to surprise me - alright it might not be your cup of tea, so just do what you want to do, but why attack some one else for doing things a bit differently?

If it interests you find out more about it and try it, don't just listen to the sheep
 
So it's actually about interpretation? How one understands the words and puts them into practice??
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
My problem with all this NH stuff is the insta horseman malarky. Most of what they teach is in fact common sense and how people have practiced for many years. But somehow that's been changed to: if you don't follow so and so you are an abuser. You break horses by bucking them out and can never have a special bond like the rest of us.

I watched one woman last year go on about how pleased she was she sent away her horses to be broken by a Parelli person. This is the first time non of her starters bucked. I laughed, couldn't help it. She says well who do you use. I said me. She asked how I stayed on when they bucked. I said they don't buck and they don't. Not a trumped up lie. Kept on about whose methods I used. MINE. Then she yells to her daughter, show them how he stops honey. Reaches down with both hands on one rein from the canter and pulls horse's head to her knee. Yup. She asks how much horses stop. By saying whoa. Really, that basic. She says well warmbloods are different than ponies and draughts. Insinuating I'm some sort of person who doesn't know any different. What do you have? Warmbloods and TB's.

Insinuating I'm an abuser, can't ride, and haven't seen the light because I don't follow a certain big name method is what gets me. And it's the teachers passing on this false information.

I've learned from a variety of people over the years. They've all been excellent horseman including cowboys. They treated horses with respect and never took shortcuts or used deprivation of any kind to achieve the desired effect. They don't have packaged DVD's or teach masses. Most are too busy with their day to day workings with horses.

Terri
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PNH /NH is not about shortcuts by any means - not sure where you got that idea from.
 
jeeve said:
PNH /NH is not about shortcuts by any means - not sure where you got that idea from.
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Of course it's about shortcuts!! It's about the fastest, easiest and most impressive money-spinning way of solving problems/climbing aboard a youngster and playing a crowd of mind-washed people.

Oh yes, much of it 'works', both Parelli and NH. Bit maybe go and have a think about the mental and in the case of PP, also physical, stress that the horse has to endure compared to those dealt with by people like Equilibrium Ireland. He/she has the horses interests at heart and isn't searching for fame and lining her pockets at the price of the mental stability of her horses.
 
Using water deprivation to achieve your goals quicker is a shortcut. But only my opinion. Apparently it's perfectly acceptable.

Read my post about NH methods being common sense. Most people get that. I get that. Being told by someone else I must be abusive because I don't use so and so is silly. I'm sure many of the things I do are considered NH methods. I learned them before it became a marketing tool. It's the mentality of people who blindly follow along thinking if you're not a follower of a specific person you will never be a good horseman.

Here's the thing about the levels, join up ect. It all works I have seen with my own eyes horses ruined and people hurt because for some reason they have a false sense of security in that these methods are just black and White in how horses work. I'm seeing that with my own eyes. Reading into things that aren't there. Like walking your horse around the arena and quietly taking the rope of your horse and in one step announcing my horse chooses to be with me. Not so much when he gets to the end if the arena and zips away bucking and charging around for 20 mins. Or how about standing in the aisle and picking your foot up real high expecting and demanding your horse to pick up same leg and walk in unison with you. Horse doesn't and in dually halter gets sent backwards. Again and again fail. I'm pretty sure these guys don't advocate this but they advocate the simplicity in which things can be achieved by anyone. I've watched this woman getting very frustrated with her horse over very silly things. I don't think it's fair to either of them.

Terri
 
Alyth said:
So it's actually about interpretation? How one understands the words and puts them into practice??
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Well yes, NH goes back to basic principles that have been forgotten, or are not taught. But the aids that you use are the same, the way they are taught are very similar (variations in instructors of course), the Spanish Riding School in Vienna uses groundwork like Parelli - he has visited the school and they have discussed their practices, nore similar than dissimilar.

I also know people who have achieved Level 3 and Level 4 instructor ship levels in PNH, there was nothing quick about their journey or their horses journey. Many took several years out from competing just to get the skills together, two instructors are now riding at Grand Prix dressage level, the other focus is jumping and training. Their horses are amazing - and were not easy horses either - other people's problems that they took on.

There is nothing cruel in there approach they live for their horses, they have no children, they have invested everything they have in their education, facilities etc.

I really feel that I am banging my head against the wall when ever I reply to these posts, but I know that it is just plain ignorance from people who have not seen what PNH/NH has to offer. It just is a shame that something that has a lot to offer is so derided.

I will say that if you have an issue with your horse or want to learn NH - get out and get hands on with an instructor. It is not impossible to learn from the tapes/DVDs, but to get your head around the concepts - you really need to get out and do it. I was lucky to have some really good instructors available locally, (a while back now), and I have seen them and their students progress, over 20 years - so I can say that I have seen it work, and work consistently over a sustained period, it takes committment and time - it is not a quick fix. But it works when you put the time in.
 
jeeve said:
There is nothing cruel in there approach they live for their horses, they have no children, they have invested everything they have in their education, facilities etc.

I really feel that I am banging my head against the wall when ever I reply to these posts, but I know that it is just plain ignorance from people who have not seen what PNH/NH has to offer. It just is a shame that something that has a lot to offer is so derided.

QUOTE]

There is nothing cruel about water deprivation, gum lines, hobbling, face hitting with clips?? are you seriously saying it's 'igorance' of people who don't look further to see what it has to offer?!?!? Really?! How can you POSSIBLY have a system where these are the examples set by the leaders, and then say it's ignorance for people to discount it? Of course there are examples of people using parelli without being quite so overtly abusive to their horses, but given that these are the examples set by the leaders I don't think you can call it ignorance for people to look no further at it. To the contrary, in fact!!

Even if you remove those instances and look further (which I have, out of interest) there are MULTIPLE examples of parelli general practice - i.e. seven games, pressure halters etc etc - being completely inconsistent and not aligned at all wiht the theory they are meant to present. They are basically domination games, so may work with some horses and may be played in a less agressive way than PP himself or some of his assosciates, but that still doesn't mean that they're the best way of training - there are so many kinder ways to work with horses.
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How do Parelli fans feel about his abuse ? Was the Catwalk incident justifable ? Is withholding water or smacking a partially sighted horse under the chin with a metal clasp on a lead rope acceptable ?
How about teaching 2 month old foals to jump large logs like this one http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=18778&d=1192586523

Where is the wisdom in training a baby to do this ? Sure a foal can follow its mother over an obstacle if necessary, but shouldn't the baby be playing in the field rather than being subjected to intensive training sessions ? What is he hoping to achieve?

The man and his wife have no wisdom or principles except in self promotion and making money. Pity they chose to use animals to get rich with. Any good ideas they use were around long before they packaged them into DVD's.
perhaps they should call them 'For Fools And Horses'.
 
Has anyone else seen the "Needle Shy Demonstration" video, which is on the May 2006 Savvy Club DVD? I only bought it because of a comment on the YouTube thread about Catwalk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus) and wanted to see why Pat thought he was dealing with a "a prey animal so damaged that somewhat extreme measures must be taken for safety of the people around them". As it turned out, the horse was a nice, "ordinary" mare who just happened to be very needle-shy. However, Pat's talking up of the problem and his roping antics were truly cringeworthy in my opinion.

To quote the sleeve notes:

"Needle Shy Demonstration" (57 min.)
with Pat Parelli, Jesse, Karen, Cash and Sage

In this demonstration Pat help's Karen's mare, Sage, with her dramatic claustrophobia and fear of needles.

While riding Cash, Pat plays the Seven Games with Sage to develop trust, leadership and expose Sage's deep fear of confinement.

This demonstration is not intended to teach the techniques for dealing with this type of problem. It is to expose how deep and severe it can be for some horses plus show the Level of savvy required to address it safely for both horse and human.

IMPORTANT SAFETY WARNING: THIS SESSION CONTAINS LEVEL 4 TECHNIQUES. PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT. IN SEVERE CASES SUCH AS THIS, PLEASE CONSULT WITH YOUR PARELLI ENDORSED PROFESSIONAL.

Quite a lot of the demonstration time was spent talking about how troubled the mare was - although that wasn't really in evidence from her behaviour in the demo. Only a little bit at the end showed any handling involving a needle and that was the guy Jesse being instructed on how to put a needle in the neck without her noticing, which was judged to be a successful outcome(!).

Pat used the analogy of training soldiers going into war by exposing them to more explosions in war games than they would encounter in any actual battle. "We gotta try to get her used to some things way beyond... this little needle shot thing..."

So Pat proceeded to expose the mare to some rather rough treatment designed, in his words, to make needles seem tame in comparison. This included some ponying in which the mare was hauled around the pen a few times and struggled to maintain her footing, and roping a hindleg resulting in the mare double-barrelling over and over again to try and escape from the discomfort.

It seemed to me that Pat talked the horse's problems into something more than they were - an exaggeration the owner went along with at the time. There wasn't anything that unusual or extreme about Sage's confinement issues, or indeed about her needle-shyness.

At no point were more enlightened methods such as progressive desensitization or counter-conditioning ever mentioned, either as a potential solution or as something that had been tried and failed.

A lot of Parelli people didn't like it at all, including the owner of the horse who claimed the session set her horse back significantly."

All the way through I kept thinking - Why is he doing that? Why is he saying those things?? In the end, Pat had someone put a needle into Sage's neck muscle using the "bump, bump, thump" method - so the horse wasn't even aware of the needle. What he did not attempt was what a vet would have to do if they needed to draw blood or do an IV injection. (Yet several times he talked about "getting blood"!)

I feel strongly enough about this video to draw attention to it here - though I realize most of you won't have seen it or even get to see it (unless someone posts excerpts to YouTube). To my mind it is as shocking as the Barney video for the sheer blinkered, ignorant brass neck of the Parelli system. It makes me wonder what other follies have been put out on DVD.
 
Another example of why I am anti...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgS02i2MExM

A quote from this clip, in which Pat Parelli is talking with the owner of Cupcake, a therapy horse:

Pat: "Is she a confident horse?"

Owner: "I would say yes..." (nods)

Pat: "Yeah.. usually confidence leads to dominance" (knowing smile)

Owner: (broad knowing smile and nods) Mmmm... Ah!

Pat: (smiling and nodding) Mmmm!

[Me: Blech!]
 
ohh i do love how a pp supporter will always tell doubters that they don't understand his methods and should really get the dvds so they can see for themselves, and there you have it, you can't learn about parelli unless you sign up to the cult, pay lots of money and quite possibly sell your soul to the devil:rolleyes:
 
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