Parelli folks-genuine question??

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TequilaMist

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Not wanting a debate on rights/wrongs of Parelli(tho hard when 'THAT' word is used lol) but we were discussing things at yard as you do.One livery liked parelli idea other said it was based on using horses fear against it.
As haven't really looked that deep into it I sort of sit in the middle but tbh even when heard people say don't like it have never heard that using the horses fear is the basis of it and never personally thought that was the theory behind it.It may well be and I've misinterperted(?sp) it but could someone clarify this for.
 
Don't do Parelli and have no desire to do it but I was watching a woman doing 'it' with her horse this week.

I'm really not sure what she was trying to achieve but the horse was snorting wildly and careering round like a loon. When she did stop in the corner, she threw her (very expensive) Parelli rope at it to send her off again.

I wouldn't say the horse was petrified but she certainly didn't look happy.

The woman was also squating down and blowing raspberries at the horse. I was dying to ask why but didn't. Maybe another day!
 
.. pmsl.. there's a woman at our yard like that.. she flaps a rope in her horses face all the time.. I have no idea what she's trying to achieve and the horse sure as hell doesn't either.
 
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off to get popcorn
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No no no popcorn allowed lol.
Genuine question!don't want to debate it or start one genuinely want to know.pm me if not wanting to put on site.
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I haven't seen anything fear-based in it at all, ever. The "old" Parelli was just basic common sense set out in easy steps that a non-horsey or struggling horsey person could use as a framework. Sadly, I believe that this down to earth philosophy has been lost in the vast money-spinning machinery that is today's Parelli.
 
I think I know what your friend means.

Some horses seem to perform as if they know what the consequences will be if they don't. It's much easier for them to go through the motions.

Many Parelli trained horses have a vacant look in their eye, and some shut down altogether.

Wiggling ropes in their faces, and tapping them continuously with a stick, and whacking the ground with the stick if the horse doesn't move quickly enough is not a good way to train horses.......in my opinion.
 
I think I understand what you mean but don't we kind of use our horses fear against them in whatever training method we use anyway?

My friend does Parelli, she's about a level 4/5 and spent many years learning how to do it correctly. She has an amazing bond and understanding of her horses which she thanks Parelli for and none of them have a vacant look in their eyes.

Its funny how some people do not think it is acceptable to hit the ground with a stick if the horse doesn't move quickly enough but perfectly ok to hit the horse with a stick if it doesn't move from the leg quickly enough.
 
There is a good way to find out how Parelli works, and it doesn't cost much money on the scale of things. Have a look at their website and find out where there is a Level 1 course going on, one for complete newbies. Then pay to go and spectate day 1.
As a very experienced ex-Parelli student I really think that is worth doing for anyone who is curious. You might pick up some things you find useful for yourself, you might not. What you will see is the instructors taking these horses that have never been exposed to Parelli training before, and teaching them. So you will see exactly how they ask the horse to do things, and what they do if they don't.
I don't know if it's still allowed, but you used to be able to video what was happening, which seems entirely reasonable to me as you pay to watch. If you can, take it home and watch it with the sound off. I don't think that what is happening is always exactly what the instructors say is happening, and the Parelli slant on equine behaviour is a bit suss at times. If you just watch what happens then you can make your own mind up from what you see in front of you.
Howzat?
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One more thing, don't lump all the "NH"-type trainers in with Parelli. It is just one approach to a huge topic. To think they are all the same would be rather like saying that all dressage riders train in the same was as Anky. (Rolkur anyone?).
 
i use a little bit of it here and there, and i hope i'm using the horse's instincts... but all i do are the first few games as i find them the most useful by far (moving horse's quarters, and front end, away from you, etc. gets a little bit of politeness and discipline, teaches them to respect my space and accept my right to gently/politely move them around.)
nobody has ever been able to explain to me why some of their best performers (such as the 2 Friesians that the lady in the motorised wheelchair works at liberty) do the whole thing with their ears flat back all the time, looking mightily p***ed off, swishing tails, snaking necks... if my horses looked like that i'd be worrying about getting a hoof in the teeth. is it that they are 'expressing themselves'?!
horses who are happy in their work don't work like that, surely, even when concentrating hard.
i really don't understand that, honest question to the Parelli people, not trolling/baiting.
 
p.s. All the anecdotes about idiot Parelli students are interesting, but personally I see idiots with horses all the time. Only some of them are waving orange stick, more often they are waving more conventional whips. The only way to know how Parelli is supposed to be applied is to watch an accredited instructor. You can check if they are accredited on their website. Half these "Parelli instructors" that people say are visiting their yards are just ambitious students with questionable skills.
One of my mates went privately, and with no money changing hands, to help a friend with their horse. A week or so later people from the yard were talking about the "Parelli instructor" who had visited, and speculating about what she'd done and why. Well, not just speculating, pouring scorn might be more accurate. a) She's never had a Parelli lesson in her life, and wouldn't dream of it. b) If they wanted to understand what she was doing they only had to ask. Different approaches to horse training can look very strange if you've never been exposed to them, it doesn't mean they don't work or that they are wrong.
 
Kerrilli, I've met Silke, the lady with the Friesians (one died by the way) and I know what you mean. However, I was looking at a series of photos on a "positive" training site recently, where the horse was trained using treats and generally it was all considered to be very kind. He was running around at liberty, interacting with his trainer, who had on a bum bag for treats. That horse displayed very similar body language at times, snaking the head, pinning the ears etc. So is it that easy for us to interpret their body language? Is it as straightforward as we think?
I do know that the very same people who have pulled apart videos of Parelli students doing liberty work, because of ears being pinned sometimes, were applauding these photos. And yet, the body language was remarkably similar.
 
ah, that's interesting, Woeisme. yes, Silke, that's her name. shame she's lost one, they were magnificent.
she had them both circling around her tightly (at liberty) in canter, one going one way, one the other... quite amazing, but looking really angry too. i couldn't work out why they didn't just run off... you're right, not always easy to interpret their body language. if one of mine looks like that i know it's about to try and clout its field mate!
 
I was going to PM you, but what the hell...
Some years ago, I went to stay on a horsey holiday and discovered the host was a new devotee of the 'discipline'. Now, I already knew what it was, its aims and how it was done but never seen it up close and in progress.

She had the correct equipment and the boxed set of instructions, but I only found this out after our first ride out together (sort of informal mini guide session) out on the Welsh Mountains. I am still blown away by the experience of this little horse going so beautifully.

The lady is a quiet, self-contained (own place, independent participant ie not one of a group all having a go) and had bought a very lively ex whipper-in's ride who had no manners and no schooling.

Here's the link to her place, which I discovered lately, when browsing idly to see if she still does holidays. Indeed, she does and I can wholeheartedly recommend you go, with your horse. In fact, it looks like she still has Dusty!
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It's not for everyone, and I don't use it, but there was nothing I saw that didn't make sense, or that made me shrug or want to laugh. You have to see it done at basic level (not at party-trick stage) for it to make sense.

I do wonder if, once the essentials have been established, it is really necessary to carry on to the realms of circus trick levels, but I bet it gets addictive. She is one Parelli afficionado and practitioner who definitely DOES ride and the use of Parelli made it possible for her to have the pleasure and fun she experiences with Dusty.
 
We had someone with a carrot stick come play with one of the horses I ride. Some of it like moving quarters away was good, the horse can have a bit of an attitude and be a bit stubborn. However when we got to the bit to ask him to move back using the wiggly rope technique I did not like. Horsey ended up having the rope wiggled so much... Still wouldn't go back!! He just put his head higher and higher and the reared up instead :/ he wasn't impressed! So then the carrot stick was put above his head so he hit his head when he put it up or tried to rear. The horse is not a rearer, he will question you but is not out to hurt you. I dunno, it all seemed very fear related I'd move if someone wacked me round the face with a wiggly rope;) one confused horse me thinks. but onthe pluss side she did make me feel more confident handling him. I won't be having any more parrelli style lessons. An accrediated Kelly marks trainer maybe!!
 
Hi there,

I'm Claire Adamson 2* Licensed Parelli Professional based in the North of England, and a long time visitor of the H&H forums! www.claireadamson.com

I really urge anyone who wants to find out more about Parelli to check out the website www.parelli.com, talk to the staff in the office at Stoneleigh or look at www.shareparelli.com

Also, if the person coming to your yard to teach Parelli is not shown on the Instructors page of the Parelli website then they may well not be genuine, nor correctly licensed and insured.

Of course if you do have any queries then PM me too and I will do my best to help out and point you in the right direction.

Best wishes,

Claire
 
Claire...

I have never been able to understand the thinking behind the use of four phases of pressure, and the changes of cue for each phase, which are advocated for teaching a horse to back up.

Like Nicki85, I've seen horses become very resistant, and headshy, to the point where they have reared, owing to the use of a wiggling rope and a large, heavy clip where it attaches to the halter.

Surely, a horse faced with such a visual stimulus, and a piece of metal rapping it on the lower jaws has no choice but to exhibit extreme behaviour, such as rearing or barging forward.

This is an issue which gives many Parelli students problems, as their horses become fearful. Some become highly reactive, although seldom favourably to the handler's expectations.

I teach previously unhandled horses to back up, in a very short space of time, by using a gentle, firm halter pressure over the nose and poll. The horse is encouraged to lower his head (facilitating lightness in his quarters; and roundness, which makes him supple), and to bring his face toward the vertical (helping to incline his weight backwards).

By that method, if the horse has been taught to find that position before being actually asked to step back, he will very quickly offer to back up when asked. A simple release of the pressure, and a spoken word of praise confirms to the horse that he has given the correct response, and it's lesson learned.

I never known it to take longer than two minutes to teach.

Perhaps you could try to convince me that the Parelli method is good horsemanship, bearing in mind that the main objective is to have a horse which is trusting, willing, and free of fear.

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I hate the "wiggly rope thing", otherwise known as the Yo Yo Game. I couldn't bring myself to apply it as my Parelli instructor taught, and it this sort of training in Parelli that made me move away. I followed an instructor who had evolved beyond what Parelli teach, and was much more subtle.
I think Parelli should remove the bl**dy heavy metal clips from their ropes so that horses can never, ever, get smacked round the face with them. Even if they are not applying it as part of the Yo Yo "game", with an ill fitting halter the clip can hit the horse on the face far too easily. An ill-fitting halter is one that is dangling below the horse's chin, as seen far too often in photos from Parelli students. To see how a rope halter should fit, for anyone that is interested, have a look at the Lodge Ropes website. Parelli could learn some things from them.
There are some really interesting trainers coming to the UK each summer, and really all I can say is that whatever you are thinking of doing, get out a bit and spend some money on checking out who does what and how. It's worth doing before you plump for the Parelli system.
 
Hi AengusOg - a name I know from NR
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You've highlighted another problem with the Yo Yo Game. It teaches horses to back up with resistance, all the muscles in the neck working in the wrong way. Then later on, the Parelli student has to correct that in order to get "refinement". If they taught a correct backup from the start that would be much more sensible, and fairer on the horse.
This highlights something that I think is a fundamental problem with the Parelli training, something I didn't fully appreciate until I got around other trainers. In the early Parelli levels the yields (or games) are taught in quite a crude manner, and the students can get a "pass" when their horses are braced. Just look on You Tube at the Parelli auditions people are posting to see examples of this. Horses doing their circling with the head tipped to the outside and the whole body braced the wrong way. Horses backing up with their heads up. Yet the students post that they have passed that level and are studying the next.
This all has to be corrected at a later stage in training, or as is often the case, the students don't continue to that level, so their horses continue to work incorrectly, which is not physically beneficial to them. It's not hard to teach correctly from the start, asking for the horse to be soft and lifted and with correct bend. Other trainers manage it and also manage to teach their students how from day 1.
(Hmm, this is turning into a Parelli thread with a difference isn't it? A bit of a change from "Parelli is too commercial, overpriced and all these NH trainers are mad").
 
Hi there W

Alas, I am no longer registered on NR, although I had thought to re-join. There were always very good discussions on there.
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I joined another site with a lot of ex NR members, but I got banned for an ill-timed post on my views on sedation versus training in relation to clipping horses.
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I think it was a conspiracy.
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I agree with your post.

 
Of course not, but it is one method that is taught to all isn't it? Everyone has to demonstrate Yo Yo as part of their Level 1 assessments, and the Yo Yo is the way you get the long-distance backups in the later levels.
 
From what I'v seen of parelli it does seen much more aggressive (mentally) than good english/classical training. Also pat parelli sometimes seems quite disrespectful towards the horse, IE referring to his training techniques as 'games' FGS! they are animals not toys!
 
A lot of strange views held in this room about Parelli then. Mostly uninformed, or from watching people who are trying to learn the exercises at the early stages which I'm happyu to agree can look ugly and confusing.

I use Parelli, am not a "devotee", but understnad the benefits of the approach and appreciate the structured learning approach.

However the best way to learn is, as another poster suggested, a level 1 course - it;s a lot of fun and you learn a huge amount that will be useful long term.

The 4 phases of pressure are simple - it;s just escallation, all good horsemen do it - start with a tiny request, make it an ask, make it a strong ask, make it a "do it now" - no mystery there.

And I guess Lastchancer, that you must then be"disreespectful" with everyone you play sports with, or any children you teach - "games" are the best way to learn, and should be fun for the horse and handler.

It's not just backing your horse up - it's backing your horse up 15 feet away, and then backing him up with no rope 20 feet away!

My horse is a whole load nicer to handle now than he was before I got involved in learning the PArelli approach. It's just one approach, and I have plenty direct experience of others (have met Monty and Kelly and worked with my horses) and they all have something very valuable to offer.

On the other hand polarised opinions have very liitle of value to offer.
 
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Tell us about the other ways then, Jinglejoys.
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Someone's already mentioned it...The Porcupine game (If you haven't got an animal that strikes and bites at close range!)
You do whatever is best..If the animal is made head shy you are doing it wrong and not doing the Friendly game anough
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The 4 phases of pressure are simple - it;s just escallation, all good horsemen do it - start with a tiny request, make it an ask, make it a strong ask, make it a "do it now" - no mystery there.

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Wrong. All good horsemen don't use escalation of pressure, increased in phases as you describe. Which just proves my point, even if you are a dedicated Parelli student, it's worth getting out and about and seeing how other people do things.
My Parelli horses were a lot easier and "nicer" to handle. That doesn't mean that the way I trained them was the best, fairest or most effective way.
Anyway, I'm not here to argue the toss with people who are dedicated Parelli students and who think it is the best and only way to do things. I used to think that too, but luckily I moved on. I'm trying to help the inital poster by suggesting that they get out a bit and look at other trainers before opting for the (expensive) Parelli programme.
 
the problem I have with parrelli is not how a horse backs up or what it does when ( i actually believe you can train a horse to do pretty much anything whatever method eventually) however the problem I have is the sheer cost that is involved. If its a genuine art of helping, then why is it so expensive. I can go to my local tack shop and buy an extra full headcollar and leadrope for 5.99, yet the parrelli ropes - how dear?? Its a very clever marketing campaign. Parelli instructors may well have something valuable to offer, but customers have something much more valuable - their bank balances!!
 


Genuine question - if you don't increase pressure what do you do instead? That is always what I was taught, even as a kid on a pony, squeeze, kick, use stick to back up your leg. Same with halting etc using your seat before your hand. I'm a bit confused
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