Parelli folks-genuine question??

[AengusOg]

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Genuine question - if you don't increase pressure what do you do instead? That is always what I was taught, even as a kid on a pony, squeeze, kick, use stick to back up your leg. Same with halting etc using your seat before your hand. I'm a bit confused

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Don't worry, there are lots of confused people about.

I'm confused about why anyone would advocate presenting a horse with a cue and, when he fails to give the desired response, changing that cue and introducing an escalation of pressure in the hope that that may help him understand what is required of him.

If a horse is trained to be compliant and responsive, by consistent pressure, by repetition, and without the use of fear, he will always be willing to offer something in response to a cue. If he is given the chance to try, without reprimand if he gets it wrong, and praised when he gets it right, he shouldn't need any escalation of pressure, such as boots in the ribs and whips.

The Parelli student presents the green horse with a waggling finger as a cue for him to back up. When he fails to understand, he is presented with a moving rope. If he still doesn't understand, the rope is wiggled more violently in the hope that he may work out from that what is actually required of him.

What can and does happen is that the horse gets tense, agitated, and confused and, because he can't gain relief from the cues, he throws his head about and may rear, or attempts to barge froward. This results in the (temporary) cessation of the cues, and the horse has learned that to exhibit resistance gets him some relief. He hasn't learned to back up in a controlled and relaxed manner, that's for sure.

Horses which require escalation of pressure haven't been given the opportunity to properly learn how to respond to simple cues, and gentle pressure.

 

[Tinypony]

Argh, just typed a long reply and lost it.

Mark Rashid and Ray Hunt would be examples of people I would consider to be "good" horsemen (great really). I've never seen them teach their students to use escalating phases of pressure.

 

[TequilaMist]

Thanks for replies they have been helpful.
And will say its nice to see folk discussing itwithout it blowing up to a big argument ( touches wood )

 

[saddlesore]

I have a couple of vidoes by Mark Rashid, they make great watching. I think some of the real 'cowboy' folks have such an amazing connection with their horses

In response to the escalating pressure issue, whether parelli or not surely all horses are still trained to repsond to pressure? (can you tell I'm a Richard Maxwell fan

) For example there have been loads of posts on here regarding people who have issues leading their horses in hand and being advised to use a dually or chifney or chain etc - surely these are all examples of increasing pressure? Whilst in a perfect world no one would have to use a 'pony club kick' or back up their leg with a stick, in reality this often isnt the case.
At least the idea of increasing pressure i.e horse wont back up in hand so you might use your hand on their chest/nose and push until they back up. To me this is more logical than changing your approach each time the horse doesn't comply

I am in no way advocating scaring or stressing a horse but surely being consistent in what you are asking is better than chopping and changing to get a result?

 

[Tinypony]

All horses need to learn to respond to pressure.
If you reinforce your cue with "something else" you are not changing the cue, because you keep that on, you are just "explaining" it. The idea is that you want your horse to learn to always respond to the lightest ask, and you don't want to give the horse increased pressure to lean into or stress about in order to do it.
I don't kick my horses, the most I will do is vibrate my heels, but normally I back up my leg with something else, so that I can keep my initial soft ask on their body.
I don't use chifneys, chains or be nasty halters either, so won't comment on them. They aren't relevant training tools to me.
If you put your leg softly on for a lateral movement, then <u>touch</u> the horse beside your leg with a stick if it doesn't respond, that isn't increasing the initial pressure (your leg) it is adding some reinforcement.
It is a differnent view of the world for many, I know that, but once you get into this way of thinking it becomes second nature to think of ways to help the horse without just doing what you were doing, but harder. They notice everything, sometimes just a click of the fingers will bring about a lovely backup, it's fun.
I am not saying that using increasing pressure doesn't work, obviously it can. I'm disputing the comment made earlier that "all good horsemen" use it. I also agree with what AengusOg said above about using increasing phases of pressure.
Sorry, your example of backing the horse up in hand... You are asking the horse to back away from the pressure on his nose. If you used escalating phases of pressure you would increase that same pressure on his nose. If you touch his chest while still maintaining your initial soft backup request you aren't increasing the pressure are you? You are reinforcing/explaining what you want by adding something different. The horse that has the pressure increased is likely to brace up and hollow into the backup. The horse that continues to feel a light pressure on the nose, backed up by a request that it may find easier to understand such as pressure on the chest, is more likely to keep the neck soft in the backup.
"Clicking" is often used to reinforce a cue instead of increasing pressure isn't it?

 

[saddlesore]

Thanks for your reply! That makes absolute sense! I was getting really confused and thinking that if you (don't mean YOU but anyone) applied a cue and horse didn't respond then you would try another approach lol and I thought surely that is simply teaching the horse to ignore you!

I do exactly what you do (apart from the kicking thing as my 5yo is going through a lazy phase so I'm doing squeeze, vibrate then kick! He was very very whipshy when I got him hence this approach.) and I have also never had any handling issues etc so must be doing something right lol. I think my confusion was compounded by perhaps having a slightly different view of what increasing pressure means in so far as I would say that placing a hand on chest AND nose is increasing pressure. However, I'm a bit of a hippy on that front and I take pressure to mean both physical and mental - not as in upsetting the horse but under pressure to think and work things out if that makes any sense?
FWIW I don't do parelli, but a couple of people at the yard do Quantum Savvy (Shane actually comes to the yard and teaches) and I have been shown how to do the 'friendly game' which has had a fantastic calming and desenstitising effect on my boy and helped us work through a lot of his fear of humans

Don't do any of the other things but when shown how to do it properly it can be very effective. That said there are no 'phases of pressure' in the game that I do, that was just me off on a tangent!!
Thanks for taking the time to explain though, my head was about to implode!

 

[Tinypony]

There aren't any phases of pressure in the Friendly Game (I don't know how Shane and Meredith get away with calling their games the same as Parelli

). Really the main aim of that is desensitisation, but it can become a cue for your horse to stop working and relax.
Re applying something else to your cue, whether that increases pressure depends how you do it... doesn't it?

Another example. I was asking my horse for a soft backup while riding, I had him lovely and soft in the bridle, and was just waiting to "find the try", but he didn't seem to get it. I left everything as it was, put the reins in one hand, and just quietly slapped my leg. Hey presto, lovely couple of steps of backup. It just unlocked him a bit.

 

[saddlesore]

Lol, I said friendly game as that was mentioned earlier, I think they call it rythmic pressure, but don't quote me on that!
No, I do the same as you, I don't stop what I was doing, but I add another 'cue' also. Like you I find it really rewarding and enjoyable! I think my confusion was regarding the definition of 'pressure' and also these parelli threads always confuse me anyway!

You're explanation came minutes before the need for paracetamol lol

 

[Tinypony]

Go have a nice lie down Saddlesore.
I'm intending to get to as many different trainers as I can this year, so if you want some ideas of who might be interesting to see, pm me.

 

[Medina]

Hi there
I came across this post completely out of the blue - I was really touched by what you said about Dusty and I and thought that I would update you .............Yes Dusty is still going strong; we have continued with our Parelli journey......it isnt for everyone but it has certainly suited the two of us! ........ we are still in Mid Wales and continue to welcome guests with horses on a regular basis. (I'm glad that you enjoyed it so much) The trail riding has gone from strength to strength so much so that I have developed several 2-5 day rides with a friend of mine in the Radnorshire Hills and a 5 day route across Wales all of which we both guide on or folks can ride self-guided. Dusty and I continue to have fun together and enjoy nothing more than spending the day with each other exlporing in the hills..Roll on the Spring.. it'd be lovely to see you again if you are ever in our neck of the woods.