LizzyandToddy
Well-Known Member
I am very much against parelli as it is nothing but a gimic. Does not mean im against natural horsemanship par-se, i love methods adopted by monty roberts and others. But Parelli are just in it for the money IMO.
Parelli-Good or bad???
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brucea
Well-Known Member
Well, that is just showing your ignorance.
I guess you must be at least a level 3 instructor, or have your horse working at liberty, to have evaluated Parelli so exhaustively and come to your obviously well informed and thoroughly evaluated opinions that it should be so dismissed.
Until you have, then best simply keep your ill informed opinions to yourself.
Natch
Well-Known Member
I'm suprised this topic is still coming up - these posts were the height of fashion when I joined, and were the reason I joined in 2007!
Its a training method. I have studied it, and have studied many others. I find good bits and bad bits in most of them, and my own appraoch to horses is constantly being modified the more I learn. Most of us do this anyway, and whatever we call it and however we learn it, most of us will use similar techniques based on similar principals of being kind to the horse and getting them to understand us.
In short, its one tool in my toolbelt, and is there to be used if its appropriate for that particular situation. I think trouble brews when people blindly follow one method, and won't accept anything else - and I think you see a lot of this with parelli. Worse, you see a lot of bad horsemanship under the name of Parelli, mainly because people believe, or have been led to believe that they can tackle problems which are really too big for them, with only minimal training from a book or DVD. Neither of which will give any feedback to the individual.
Brucea, I find your comment that you cannot possibly come to any conclusion about Parelli until you are level 3 instructor trained ridiculous
People are allowed to make up their own minds about different styles of horsemanship without spending years and £££s studying them.
Its a training method. I have studied it, and have studied many others. I find good bits and bad bits in most of them, and my own appraoch to horses is constantly being modified the more I learn. Most of us do this anyway, and whatever we call it and however we learn it, most of us will use similar techniques based on similar principals of being kind to the horse and getting them to understand us.
In short, its one tool in my toolbelt, and is there to be used if its appropriate for that particular situation. I think trouble brews when people blindly follow one method, and won't accept anything else - and I think you see a lot of this with parelli. Worse, you see a lot of bad horsemanship under the name of Parelli, mainly because people believe, or have been led to believe that they can tackle problems which are really too big for them, with only minimal training from a book or DVD. Neither of which will give any feedback to the individual.
Brucea, I find your comment that you cannot possibly come to any conclusion about Parelli until you are level 3 instructor trained ridiculous
People are allowed to make up their own minds about different styles of horsemanship without spending years and £££s studying them.caramel
Well-Known Member
A few people at my yard do parelli. Instructors come in and they use it religiously (one even went to the US to study with Pat). There was even a parelli dressage comp last year. People are very much into the rope halters and super long lead rope thingys.
Personally I would never do it with Handy. I've watched Parelli and there's a lot I don't agree with. I like natural horsemanship, but am more of a monty roberts person. The whole thing with Robert Whitaker's stallion and the bridle really put me off.
My horse follows me around. We can do basic stuff without training. Things like school movements and circles with him walking by my shoulder with no lead rope. He does it because he wants to.
Personally I would never do it with Handy. I've watched Parelli and there's a lot I don't agree with. I like natural horsemanship, but am more of a monty roberts person. The whole thing with Robert Whitaker's stallion and the bridle really put me off.
My horse follows me around. We can do basic stuff without training. Things like school movements and circles with him walking by my shoulder with no lead rope. He does it because he wants to.
sabCZa
Well-Known Member
I think it gives some people (who need it) a method - many people do not know instinctively how to relate to their horse, have confidence issues, etc. and if they have a method they behave more predictably to the horse, which the horse appreciates and they may have some good results. That said, I dont like the Parellis, or their technique.
brucea
Well-Known Member
Naturally, it was a thinly veiled attempt at sarcasm.
It's also ridiculous that people mindlessly dismiss an entire movement when they don't obviously have no experience and know nothing about it. If the poster had actually spent time learning about it and progressing through the levels then she might be in a place to make such a dismissal - but there is far too much "Parelli is rubbish", "barefoot is rubbish", "treeless saddles are rubbish" etc., on this forum
it's ill informed and closed minded to do so.
HuntingPink
Active Member
Parelli = bad. I did my L2 and was working on L3 when I woke up and realised that if I was uncomfortable with the method then my horse's must be too. Too much pressure and upping of pressure. Too much dominance. Too little say for the horse. Monty Roberts is the same but not quite as bad though he does use the Dually halter and buckstopper which are evil.
I now prefer to use a method used by dog and dolphin trainers, positive reinforcement and clicker training. My OH introduced me to it as he's a dog trainer. After I'd stopped laughing I tried it and was really shocked that it worked. It took some time to undo the damage I did using Parelli but they're happy now which I can now see that they weren't before
I now prefer to use a method used by dog and dolphin trainers, positive reinforcement and clicker training. My OH introduced me to it as he's a dog trainer. After I'd stopped laughing I tried it and was really shocked that it worked. It took some time to undo the damage I did using Parelli but they're happy now which I can now see that they weren't before
brucea
Well-Known Member
I will freely admit that there are several aspects of Parelli that I am uncomfortable with - and there is the marketing and the cost as well - but there are a lot of good things in it so don't throw out the baby with the bathwater
I intend to find out more on the Steve Halfpeny/Silversands approach this year - I hear good things about that.
The thing I find unacceptable is people just taking polarised views of anything based on no real experience
I intend to find out more on the Steve Halfpeny/Silversands approach this year - I hear good things about that.
The thing I find unacceptable is people just taking polarised views of anything based on no real experience
Kokopelli
Well-Known Member
How do you know they have no real experience? Unless you know them personally in RL and know their past experiences then you don't.
It may suprise some on here that I know a fair bit about parelli and I think its very commercialised and people try to use it as a quick fix method to their horses problems. Yes there are some good people out there who have very well trained happy horses but the majority I have met are horrible and the horses do not seem 'right'.
Ladyinred
Well-Known Member
Because the Parelli party line, in the face of criticism is always to maintain that the other person 'doesn't understand what they are seeing', or 'is ignorant' or 'has no experience to judge them by' I believe that is ingrained in all participants very early on and they chant it like a mantra.
Sadly, for the Parelli's, but happily for our horses, not all of us are so lacking in braincells that we are totally unable to deconstruct what we see and to make an educated and informed opinion as to whether or not we like it.
I have never done and will never do Parelli, but I most certainly understand the theories (flawed as they are) behind it and I also understand the effects it can and does have on a horse..
There is only one place for a carrot stick.. in a tasty hummous dip..
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
Having been otherwise committed over the holiday period and coping with the extream weather of late, time to read over the posts on the forum has been somewhat limited.
However, this post has drawn my attention and I feel that it would be unjust not to comment, particularly as it is the last one on the thread.
I was first introduced to Parelli, nearly twenty years ago by an Australian woman who worked for us as a groom one summer. Parelli was well known in Austrailia at the time, as it still is, but practically unheard of here in the UK. Not long after, Monty Roberts washed up on these shores, and following the QED TV programme, popularized these alternative methods of horse training.
So, up until this time we were, like everyone else fairly conventional and traditional in our approach to horse keeping, but in our view using Parelli methods suited us and our horses far better than our traditional training. For all these years we have quietly got on with things and followed Parelli. I would hardly call us one of their best customers as we have spent very little on the packages and equipment, taking advantage of the numerous people who buy all the kit, but fail to get the desired results.
None the less, I follow what goes on and accept that Parelli is after all American and different in their approach to traditional UK, marketing and advertizing. However, I resent the implication that I am somehow lacking in brain cells, and have been radicalized and prone to chanting 'mantras'. It appears to me that for someone with no experience of Parelli to claim that they understand the theories, and their effects, is actually demonstrating their own stupidity and ignorance of the subject.
As I've said, we successfully, trained our horses in the traditional way but chose to go down the Parelli route, with to my mind even better results. Parelli, doesn't claim, like Monty, to have had a revelation on the plains of Nevada, and invented the language of 'equus', he credits his trainers like the Dorrance's.
As I've said before on these threads, if you haven't got 'horse sense' you will never succeed in training horses no matter what method you choose. If you want to be a traditional trainer, fair play, if you want Parelli, Silversand, Roberts, Quantum whatever, go ahead. At the end of the day, if you are a poor trainer your horse will be poorly trained, if you have a poorly trained horse, its you not the method.
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FanyDuChamp
Well-Known Member
I think that each owner/trainer should be credited with knowing what suits the horse/s in front of them. If yours enjoys Parelli, then all well and good. Both mine are well trained and good at their jobs, but they do not like Parelli. Fany, who is the most obliging mare, just does not enjoy it. She will happily follow like a puppy, do friendly,join up etc but she doesn't enjoy it. I feel horses learn best when they are enjoying their training.
Captain, as I said in an earlier post, was used to demo it by an instructor. He simply got bored and did not enjoy it.
However if your horse does enjoy it and is happy to participate, what is the problem? TBH I don't think there is anything new in Parelli, Roberts etc. The vast majority of it is what we have always done with horses, pure common sense.
That said the treatment of Robert Whittaker's stallion was horrendous and would have compounded the problem rather than solved it. So perhaps it is not suited to all horses. If it suits yours, fine. If not change what you are doing. IMHO a horse enjoying its training will learn faster and retain longer. Does it really matter what name the training goes by?
FDC
Captain, as I said in an earlier post, was used to demo it by an instructor. He simply got bored and did not enjoy it.
However if your horse does enjoy it and is happy to participate, what is the problem? TBH I don't think there is anything new in Parelli, Roberts etc. The vast majority of it is what we have always done with horses, pure common sense.
That said the treatment of Robert Whittaker's stallion was horrendous and would have compounded the problem rather than solved it. So perhaps it is not suited to all horses. If it suits yours, fine. If not change what you are doing. IMHO a horse enjoying its training will learn faster and retain longer. Does it really matter what name the training goes by?
FDC
Natch
Well-Known Member
Oh right
*mental note to pay more attention next time*I do agree that people are far too ready to dismiss any of that "new fangled rubbish". Unfortunately the early adopters of the new fangled stuff are quite often all to happy to diss years of experience and methods which work, and it can end up all tit for tat amongst those who shout loudest
What makes you say the Dually halter is evil? if the buckstop is the thing which goes under the lip then I agree with you on that one, but I have heard many different opinions on the dually over the years and never one which says it is evil!
I quite like using them Well done on the clicker training success
eahotson
Well-Known Member
I had one demo and one lesson at camp.I did not enjoy either but feel that the instructors were not very good.I have had some very poor BHS instructors as well though.One man at our yard does do some Parelli groundwork with his horse from time to time.He finds it useful but is certainly not a a totally uncritical fan of Parelli.Some of the stuff he doesn't like.For what its worth,I think that when he is on track, Pat is good with the horses but he gets carried away with his own publicity sometimes and that leads to things like Catwalk, which was horrendous.We all make mistakes though and what happened to Catwalk is probably chicken feed compared with what happens round the back at many competition yards.
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
I so agree that your horse should appear to enjoy the training that you choose to undertake, what influence you as an individual, convey to the horse whilst training will, I feel, have some bearing on the perceived reaction to the training by the horse.
To claim there is anything 'new' in this so called 'natural' method of training, is indeed foolish as a cursory glance at Xenophon would demonstrate.
I would however disagree that the vast majority of what we have done with horses is 'common sense'. Sense I believe, is not common at all, in fact it is a rarity, and 'horse sense', at a premium.
The Catwalk incident, was I feel a massive error of judgement on Pat Parelli's part, where he underestimated the horse. Having said that I have seen lots of trainers being made a fool of by horses, and that I'm afraid goes with the territory.
Horses will enjoy their training, provided the trainer is confident and competant in their technique. How many times do we see trainers making a pigs ear of a training session which translates to a fairly miserable horse.
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite
Well-Known Member
I was wondering how long it would be before another Parelli thread popped up!!
IMO if you do what you've always done, you'll get the results you've always had.
There's nothing can replace effort, effort, and more effort. Anything that claims to shortcut sheer damned hard work and commitment, slogging away in all winds and weathers, is a sham IME.
Anything that has the amount of hippy factor & hype that Parelli does - especially demanding large sums of money to go through the various levels - deserves taking with an extremely large pinch of salt IMO.
Having had the privilege of watching the good old fashioned "horsemen" on occasions; there's nothing trendy or fashionable with the wisdom of our elders and betters, it was/is just good plain good horse-sense, which works and will always works. Our English system of training and riding has stood us in good stead for hundreds of years ..... soooo, if it aint broke, why fix it???
IMO if you do what you've always done, you'll get the results you've always had.
There's nothing can replace effort, effort, and more effort. Anything that claims to shortcut sheer damned hard work and commitment, slogging away in all winds and weathers, is a sham IME.
Anything that has the amount of hippy factor & hype that Parelli does - especially demanding large sums of money to go through the various levels - deserves taking with an extremely large pinch of salt IMO.
Having had the privilege of watching the good old fashioned "horsemen" on occasions; there's nothing trendy or fashionable with the wisdom of our elders and betters, it was/is just good plain good horse-sense, which works and will always works. Our English system of training and riding has stood us in good stead for hundreds of years ..... soooo, if it aint broke, why fix it???
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
Loving the other people post recycling
Several people I feel are making great sense here, especially AndySpooner & Naturally.
My 2p worth is that there was Pat Parelli pre-Linda, basically cow boy methods (that's quite rough stuff, tying up legs & "breaking" horses) BUT with a very interesting FLAIR for better training methods & the understanding of "horsenalities" and how different horses will work for different types of stimulations, which is really interesting - other trainers do not explain this very well. Monty Roberts, for instance, although he MUST have a feel for the fact that all horses are not the same and therefore instinctively, because he is a good horseman, deal differently with different horses, does not explain that in detail.
- and the Parelli money making affair led by the brains of the outfit, Linda Parelli, which makes detailed explanation of "how to" very difficult to access unless you enter the "clan" and part with a lot of money as Box Of Frogs said.
As Naturally said it is but one tool in my toolkit - like clicker training, which someone mentioned and BTW works beautifully with some horses & not at all with others (!) with all variations in between.
I will however credit Parelli with helping me articulate my previously vague understanding of what different stimuli will motivate different types of horses to work for me.
FanyDuChamp
Well-Known Member
Horses are individuals and should be treated as such. NH is a wonderful tool in the right hands. However like any tool it can be misused to the detriment of the horse. This is equally relevant to other means of training.
FDC
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
That's a WHOLE different subject, but I do have to say ^^^ that isn't quite true...
just look at the number of "reject" horses about, which the good ol' fashioned system of training has failed miserably, because of misunderstanding fear/pain/instinctive behaviour for wilfullness and taking the Mick, nothing that a good "showing who's boss" - good old fashion style - would not solve, and if it didn't it was because the horse was nuts and needed shooting. Perfectly good horses, ruined by unsympathetic management and training.
Thank God for the Parellis/Monty Roberts/Richard Maxwell/Andrew McLean/Alexandra Kurland and all the others for bringing about progress, flawed as it may sometimes be...
fidleyspromise
Well-Known Member
It's the same as everything. Take what you can from it and dump the rest.
I have played the parelli games with my mare and although she doesn't enjoy all of them - I play the ones she does enjoy as a treat and a break from riding.
OTOH - I saw one owner doing "parelli" with his highland and the horse was getting more and more bargy - simply because the owner was not getting his timings right and as a novice, he expected to be able to read/watch DvDs and put everything into practice and it would work. The next day, the owner wasn't up and YM got very firm with horse. Owner was up following day and really chuffed because the horse had behaved immaculately and he was sure it was because of his "training".
Everything has it's place but you still have to know what your doing and I think parelli could be useful with an experienced person whereby in the hands of a novice, it can be dangerous! This goes the same for join-up (amount of people missing the signs), traditional methods etc.
Tools of the trade are useful but until you are 100% confident that what your doing will help and not hinder, you're best to get some experienced help, is MHO.
I have played the parelli games with my mare and although she doesn't enjoy all of them - I play the ones she does enjoy as a treat and a break from riding.
OTOH - I saw one owner doing "parelli" with his highland and the horse was getting more and more bargy - simply because the owner was not getting his timings right and as a novice, he expected to be able to read/watch DvDs and put everything into practice and it would work. The next day, the owner wasn't up and YM got very firm with horse. Owner was up following day and really chuffed because the horse had behaved immaculately and he was sure it was because of his "training".
Everything has it's place but you still have to know what your doing and I think parelli could be useful with an experienced person whereby in the hands of a novice, it can be dangerous! This goes the same for join-up (amount of people missing the signs), traditional methods etc.
Tools of the trade are useful but until you are 100% confident that what your doing will help and not hinder, you're best to get some experienced help, is MHO.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Like the Parelli system, the English system is as good as the teacher/practitioner.I have a traditional old fashioned insructor who is marvellous, but I ahve met many very poor ones as well.Also, we do come back to people who have not come from a horsey backgound.Usually they have learned to ride in a riding school.Me for instance.Nobody taught me how to teach a horse to say stand by a mounting block or load on a trailer.Let alone how to deal with anything else.This is where the Nh people really come into their own.Not saying thats all they can do though.
Pacey
Well-Known Member
Yes, yes, yes.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
I must say, this is a first though. A rational discussion on Parelli on this forum.Its usually one half banging on about how he is the devil incarnate and the other half God incarnate.Must be due to Tounge in cheek.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
I can't read that green writing at all!
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
Awful, isn't it, just highlight it as though you are going to delete it and it becomes readable.
FanyDuChamp
Well-Known Member
FanyDuChamp
Well-Known Member
Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
So Andy Spooner, if you can buy the gear cheap off ebay as there is thousands, does that mean there are thousands of people who cann't use it or put it on ebay, because they found it rubbish and trying to get some of their hard earned cash back. I myself, like to read Bill Dorrance and Henry Wynmalen who was first published in 1938 and I don't need gear or gadgets. The horse should always come first and worked with sensativty and not pushed beyond with what it can cope with at that time.
Ladyinred
Well-Known Member
Henry Wynmalen should be compulsory reading. One of the true unsung greats.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Must be the screen I'm using, but I can't read the green writing so will go and highlight that post.
I think what Andy means is that you can buy equipment that is just like Parelli stuff from EBay for a fraction of the price. There are loads of companies doing rope halters, nice ropes and training sticks, although you have to be careful about quality. Having said that, Parelli rope halters are a dodgy fit anyway, Lodge Ropes do lovely halters that are correctly proportioned.
I think what Andy means is that you can buy equipment that is just like Parelli stuff from EBay for a fraction of the price. There are loads of companies doing rope halters, nice ropes and training sticks, although you have to be careful about quality. Having said that, Parelli rope halters are a dodgy fit anyway, Lodge Ropes do lovely halters that are correctly proportioned.