Parelli, Monty Roberts and Clicker training

[rosalee_billy]

Hi everyone
just wanted to hear all of your opinions on the above, these are the training methods I hear mentioned the most. Also, for all the information online I can't seem to pin piont the exact methods of Parelli could anyone explain them to me?
Happy New Year!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I cant offer a balanced opinion on 2 out of 3, sorry.
I'm very sure you'll get mixed comments tho

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I could offer you an opinion on Parelli and my description of the methods he uses - however best left to those who actually use his methods rather than my very biased opinion about the man and his self proclaimed 'Inteliigent horsemanship'

 

[Firefly9410]

I met someone who had trained using a clicker to overcome a fear of water successfully. He walks through it now. She started by training to put nose in the water. He now puts his nose in everything from random water buckets to muddy puddles to the sea! While she tries to ride. In the hope of getting a click and treat.

 

[Firefly9410]

All I see is people who lack understand of basic horse handling and management and scared to ride too usually. They do Parelli instead forever because it never fixes their problems. One good horsemen did Parelli successfully with his but probably he could have been successful with other methods too if he wanted and he had no regards to horse fitness muscle development or balance. Horses drilled for hours. If they ran on downhill when circling they were disobedient for going too fast not balancing themselves to do it properly even when horse was not ridden three months prior to the schooling day or was unschooled youngsters. Seems harsh to me.

I could offer you an opinion on Parelli and my description of the methods he uses - however best left to those who actually use his methods rather than my very biased opinion about the man and his self proclaimed 'Inteliigent horsemanship'

 

[AmyMay]

All I really know about Parelli is that those who train their horses using this method never seem to do anything other than ‘faff’ around with their horses in the school.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I even know a faithful follower who actually asks her horse permission to ride each time...apparently if horse says 'No' then no it is!

I tried not to be biased and took the time to go do a demo of his (Parelli) ...the faithful were sighing and whooping as his horse slid to a stop in front of where we were sitting and stayed like that for the next 30 minutes without moving one muscle. It would seem they saw a very obedient and well trained horse. I saw a horse with a flat dead eye, totally switched off with all sense of 'horse' and individual personality switched off - forever. My husband and I walked out. It was horrific in our opinion and the horse abused and manipulated to the 'nth degree by this showman and his acolytes, all for financial gain of course, isn't all of this clap trap for someone's huge financial gain?

 

[soloequestrian]

I've used clicker training with my young horse since she was 6 months old. It's a really nice system because it helps you to focus on the positive side of things so it's enjoyable for both horse and handler. My trainer said this week that the horse is great to work with because she's 'in the learning zone' - when you ask her something she goes 'okay there must be an answer to this and if I find it something nice happens' so she thinks hard and tries hard.

 

[SEL]

I've used clicker training for specific issues such as feet handling - but you have to be spot on with your timing to avoid rewarding the wrong behaviour.

I have a very large gelding who is vet phobic. One of the vets at my old practice went on a clicker training course to help with injecting nervous horses. She used mine as a practice subject and it was great. So distracted he never reacted to the needle and I've used the clicker for injections since.

Not a fan of the other 2 methods.

 

[Shilasdair]

I've had the misfortune to see both Monty Roberts and Parelli demonstrations (and the preparation in the morning where they pick the quiet horses and make sure they will 'perform') and therefore can't give you an objective view.

I like horses far too much to do that to them.

Can't comment on clicker training.

 

[doodle]

I have a very low opinion of monty Roberts having had a horse at one of his “demos”. Also kelly marks.

 

[Rosie Round The Hills]

I’m not a massive fan of P, or or MR because I find one too commercial, and both too aggressive. I do a lot of horsemanship, using skills learnt along the way from Warwick Schiller, Josh Nichol, Amy Skinner and West Taylor. The game changers for me were the book ‘Evidence Based Horsemanship’ by Dr Steve Peters & Martin Black, and Don’t Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor. I also use clicker training as a ‘tool in my toolbox’ rather than all the time. It’s extraordinarily useful, but has to be got right to be any good to man or beast. Ben Hart and Shawna Karisch are great for clicker stuff.

 

[Finlib]

I have a very low opinion of monty Roberts having had a horse at one of his “demos”. Also kelly marks.

I also had a horse at a demo I found it aggressive and confrontational Just my opinion .The worst thing I ever did.Dreadful!!!

 

[ester]

No
No
Yes

 

[doodle]

I also had a horse at a demo I found it aggressive and confrontational Just my opinion .The worst thing I ever did.Dreadful!!!

Me too, worst thing to do. He is just a show man and doesn’t care about the horses.

 

[NLPM]

Pulled my horse out of a lesson run by an instructor claiming to use Parelli methods, and still feel horribly guilty/sorry for my horse when I think about it. The lesson was in about 2003.

Quite liked MR until I went to a demo a few years ago and saw his methods in practice.

Clicker training is one of those things I've heard great things about, but never actually known anyone who actually does it.

 

[SpottyMare]

Neither MR or Parelli float my boat - watching MR and concentrating on the horse is very enlightening. Been to a few demos and not overly keen. Parelli is just a showman, and the horses seem deadened (as someone else has said). It's all very 'look at me, aren't I marvellous'.

I've started clicker training with my mare - she picked it up incredibly fast once she realised food was involved You do need to get the timing right though, so you don't reward the behaviours you didn't want. I really like it, and can see it being a very useful tool.

 

[canteron]

Like all things they can be done well - or very badly. The best horsemen have timing consistency and a method which these things try and teach. PNH can be a bit cultish and there are bad PNH examples are everywhere - but try Frederick Pignon or David Lichman for people who have made NH into an art which few can come close to! Clicker great for improving your timing and embracing more of a positive style) and I personally think teaches the trainer more than the horse? Monty Roberts was a revolution in his time but possibly a bit outdated now? Lots of horse people are very closed minded but if you decide to look into them with an open mind they all have something you can learn from.

 

[jojo5]

Would just like to say that not all ground work, with young horses in particular, is ‘faffing about’ with a horse, as described by a previous poster.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

We have used clicker training with a very nervous young horse, particularly to get her over reluctance to have her feet handled, after having a vet treat an abscess. It can work very well, you have to be spot on with your timing and you don't need a clicker.

 

[PurBee]

I went to a MR demo in cambs yrs ago, got there early and saw all the stabled horses while waiting...one teen girl there with a huge sport horse said her horse wasnt going to be in the demo because it ‘had a lot of problems’....evidently more than a half hour round pen ‘green horse, tack-up backed ‘magic’ session’ could cure.
I smelt the ruse before the show began, and it was obvious the horses had a pre-train session before the ‘show’.

Later i discovered the real MR story. His character is questionable more than his methods!

However i cant let that taint the useful training perspective shown, like in all training methods there’s a lot i learn/observe and conclude from them all. It depends on the horse too what methods to apply. One size fits all training method raises flags for me.
I wouldnt use any system exclusively to train a horse. The horse demonstrates with their personality how best they learn. But i have very limited experience with training horses, these are things ive learnt so far.

 

[Red-1]

Not had a Parelli lesson myself, but have helped to sort out two horse/riders who had fallen foul of it. It did make me wonder what had gone on, when they told me about their lessons. I think Pat Parelli is skilled but has tried to make a one size fits all method which can be harmful.

Monty Roberts, showman. I would not try to do what he des, and interestingly, I think he has lost a large proportion of what skill he once had, judging by recent videos.

Clicker, no issues with this as long as it is complemented with other training. Easier to get started off the internet. I trained mine to fetch sticks, like a dog, for a laugh one week. I did the rest of his training by more normal pressure/release though.



I would recommend Richard Maxwell and Mark Rashid. Richard Maxwell has quicker results, but you have to step up and be more active/use more pressure. Mark Rashid will get great results, but waits for them and can therefore be softer. I once rode a horse of his where he had worked on the walk for 6 months before ever trotting. Richard Maxwell would use more force but get more done quicker.

 

[Shay]

Many years ago I made the utter mistake of letting someone P trained touch my coblet. I have never seen anything more violent and horrible in my life. It is true that once "trained" the horses look wonderfully obedient. But as others have said - they are utterly broken. Plus it is entirely cult based and commercial - pay for this course, pay for this badge, memebrs get more etc. I do actually have some time for the intelligent horsemanship MR / Kelly Marks style and origional approach. As others I am not that keen on the more recent stuff and the shows etc. But some of the basic principles I do agree with and have used - and probably so has pretty much anyone around horses becuase it is good old basic horsemanship. And we do clicker train - but you have to be really spot on it reward the correct behaviour.

 

[pansymouse]

I could but I don't want to be barred...

 

[Fransurrey]

I've seen all three in action and used CT many times, with horses and dogs. The first two are based on negative reinforcement and are about upping the pressure. The latter is about classical conditioning and positive reinforcement - rewarding a specific behaviour to make it more likely to occur and putting it on cue. Dislike the main showmen of the first two - aggressive, arrogant, dismissive...used to have a little more time for Kelly Marks and the IH, but she seemed to go down the same pseudoscience route. Calling a spade a fork. These days I use a combination of negative reinforcement ('normal' horsemanship) and positive, reward based training. As above, you don't need a clicker, just a way of marking the behaviour precisely. A clicker pen makes a good marker if you can't click your tongue. Likewise, the reward doesn't need to be food. I often use scratches, especially in summer or during coat changes.

 

[Skib]

I learned to ride as an adult and what I learned initially about leading and handling horses from the ground came from an early booklet by Kelly Marks.
People educating me in horsemanship suggested I go to any clinic available. So I did.
I didnt use clicker or Roberts or Parelli as I didnt need to. Rashid, Peace and Maxwell were my role models.
However Parelli style horsemanship (not Parelli himself) seems to have spread in Australia and come back to UK so that when I wanted to improve my grand daughter's handling of horses from the ground, I found a Parelli influenced teacher who had her riding bareback in a rope halter by the end of the week.
I went to a demo once which explaoied the ill effects on the horse of Parelli, with the cues for yielding the quarters - but I cant remember now what they were.
But in defence of Kelly Marks she did link horse handling to behaviourism which was something I knew about in a human context and she gave me the confidence to think I knew what I was doing.
This seems to me what matters most. The first day after reading Kelly Marks, I led a mare who was new to me past a working pneumatic drill. Horses tend to behave for me but it isnt clear why. At the time I assumed someone had already trained that mare in NH. But the RI said, No, horses behave like that because they had learned from their mothers.

My education and the benefit of NH in general bears out the theory that it was developed because after 1945 horse training had passed from male professionals to female amateur owners.

 

[holeymoley]

Wouldn’t touch parelli with someone else’s barge pole.

I always though MR and Kelly marks worked alongside each other? Any demos I’ve seen they worked together.

I like and have successfully done the join up part of MR but other than that I’ve not had to do anything else. Some of his stuff I think is a bit skeptical.

I know people that successfully use clicker training too again though something I’ve not personally used.

 

[Follysmum]

First one definitely no
Second no
Third possibly yes

 

[BlackRider]

Both Parelli & Monty Roberts seem to market their methods to make people believe that they can get a quick fix....

I've seen MR demos (promoting the dually to solve all problems!) and join up as the big fix...

Not really a fan of either...

But I had a lot of success (and fun) with clicker training, for Apache working on the positive aspect really helped build his confidence, and made me rethink how to approach ridden scenarios differently.

With CT you need to be consistent and have good timing, and if you do it really works well.

 

[fburton]

I could offer you an opinion on Parelli and my description of the methods he uses - however best left to those who actually use his methods rather than my very biased opinion about the man and his self proclaimed 'Inteliigent horsemanship'

Point of information... 'Intelligent Horsemanship' is Monty Roberts / Kelly Marks, not Parelli which is 'Parelli Natural Horsemanship' (PNH). They are quite different beasts, one considerably harsher than the other.