Parelli/NH advice wanted please?

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anniedoherty

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As there are a lot of Parelli experts around at the moment I thought it might be a good time to ask an NH related question.

I have been having NH groundwork instruction for the past few weeks, am enjoying it and seeing a difference in my horse's behaviour i.e. he seems less stressed when he has to be tied up on new yard etc. He was not a "bad" horse before I started this training but I was just keen to know how to interact the best I could with him.

However, I am now also getting ridden NH instruction (alongside my other traditional weekly lesson) and the two approaches are at such odds with each other that I am starting to think maybe I should stop the NH riding lessons. Basically, I am being taught to ride my horse with no rein contact at all for the most part and it is not going very well. I have nearly been bucked off several times and managed to sit to a bad spook when my horse spun and charged off to the far end of the school, all with me vainly holding my reins by the buckle!

So, my question is, should I seriously expect my horse to respond to the NH methods and launch straight in to riding without a contact from the outset or would it be preferable to ride him like I normally do and just continue with the groundwork lessons? I should point out that I am a "sympathetic" rider who expects my horse to work on a contact during a scholing session but doesn't believe in strapping his head to his chest to achieve this. I take up a soft contact, but a contact nonetheless, at the start of my schooling sessions to keep his attention from wandering. He has a soft mouth and I intend to keep it that way but I can't see how I will ever get him working properly without any contact at all. Advice please!!
 
i work mine NH on the ground, and do the basics - abc's (acceloration, barkes, control - turning)in the saddle NH just to make sure they are listening, any more work, and i ride normally.
i find that if i "warm" my mare up on the ground, liberty and some work on line, she is much better in the saddle, so i can ride normally. does this help? xxx good luck!
 
I know how you feel as I started NH groundwork and then progressed to ridden NH lessons. My mare made a real change in her attitude. Like yours she wasnt bad but at 17.2hh and 4yo she was unpredictable but everything she did was big and OTT.
My NH trainer has been getting me to do the work I have been doing on the ground on her back - eg rein back, moving side ways, opening shoulders and hips which have all been making her move better therefore helping her flatwork as shes not moving into a brickwall in her movements. In these lessons I dont ride with a contact as such - I have a light contact but not making her work on the bit. I dont hold my reins on the buckle nor do I hold them like washing lines. I have a hold of her but not as much as ridden in my dressage lessons.
My mare has only had 1 major tantrum and that was at the mirror when i wouldnt let her gawp at herself! She kicked off bucking but didnt keep it up for long as was back to her chilled out self.

Have you discussed this with your NH trainer?
 
I know nothing about NH I'm afraid but if I drop my contact my usually fairly spook-free pony starts jumping at things- it clearly makes him feel insecure.

I'd imagine your horse might be getting a bit confused, he's probably used to listening to you partly through his mouth if you see what I mean, so you might be better sticking to one type of riding, and using the NH groundwork to build the bond and trust between you that will hopefully carry over to when you're riding.

Sorry if I'm talking rubbish...as I said I don't know much about this!
 
Hmm, well, it's better not to go cold turkey! What I'd do is practise just having him at the halt, then loosen the reins, so you have very little contact, if any, but don't just chuck them away. Then if he shuffles or tries to walk off, just relax and shorten the reins again, putting pressure on him. Then release.
But the rest of time when you're riding, carry on with a light, normal contact.
Then when he can stand still with no contact happily for a couple of minutes (time this - start off with like, 10 seconds, then add on ten more, until you get to 2 mins), you can start walking with no contact. Don't ask anything difficult of him, just walk around the school in a relaxed manner. If he panics, shorten up the reins but try and stay relaxed, then once he's calm, release again.

Then you can do more difficult movements, and then eventually go onto trot etc.

But if you want to carry on with his normal training so he doesn't forget anything, also ride him on a contact for a while in the same session, and do more difficult work. So like, 1/2 hour of normal training, with about 5 mins of loose riding.

By all means, carry on riding as you used to all the time, but I do think teaching your horse to relax and trust you with a lack of contact is important as it'll just teach him to be more emotionally balanced. I found it quite helpful with my horse! There's nothing wrong with riding with a light contact though, I just think it's great to be able to do both.
 
Been doing Parelli for years now and although I ride with a very loose contact out hacking I do maintain light contact whilst schooling. If you have the groundwork established properly then ridden work should be no trouble. There are things in a school that need to be achieved and having a light contact is neccessary, providing you are not hanging on the bit. Your horse will need direction and contact is require for this.
 
i think you have answered your own question - get rid of the NH lessons!!
 
My horse has a soft mouth and is ridden in a rubber snaffle. I always have a contact it is essential. I cannot tell what he is feeling if I have no contact. I also offer no security and direction without a contact. Horses are unpredictable and by having a contact you can make snap decisions if need be and instigate the results - for example dealing with spooks. In Parelli a lot of the horses have been bought up with strong curbs hence the trying to lighten the contact. Most pictures you see of Pat and Linda they have a horse in a curb. It is a very different piece of kit to a snaffle.
 
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So, my question is, should I seriously expect my horse to respond to the NH methods and launch straight in to riding without a contact from the outset or would it be preferable to ride him like I normally do and just continue with the groundwork lessons?

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*This is personal opinion based on my own experience and I am not an NH instructor*

neither ? If you try a new approach, you should have support in how to handle the situations you will come across. As a different example, I wanted to ride my western-backed mare english (dressage) as well. Did I expect her just to happily respond to the new approach and launch straight into it ?

No - and if I had, we'd have had a train wreck from the serious communication issues that would result.

If a horse is used to a certain style of communication that includes contact, and you remove that contact - then they lose a part of the communication. It would be like someone going from face to face conversation to video only (no sound) and expecting to get the same information that way as they got before ! If you lose one element of communication, you need to work out how and where to get the information you are missing.

If the horse is a little unsettled, is that then so surprising ?

Your NH instructor should be supporting you in how to manage that transition. (For example, how to manage those spooks !)

I personally do not believe that you can teach everything from the ground and it automatically transfers, without any extra effort, into ridden work. It *does* do the the preparation for ridden work, it *does* allow you work on issues without being in the saddle, but it does NOT do it all. You have to do something to make the connection between the two.

If your NH instructor is not doing this (and it does sound like they are not), then yes - I would seriously consider not doing the ridden work with them.

And you do probably need some help with that transition if it is not something you have done before (both contact to no-contact and ground to ridden) - so if you can't find a sympathetic ridden instructor to help. you may have to put it off for a while ?

I have found a couple of "mainstream" (dressage and western) instructors who have been compatible with my approach to my horses. So the ridden work does not HAVE to be with an NH person. It can be more consistent with the ridden work that way - but it is not working out for you now, so "if its broke, fix it !"

arg - this is turning into a novel - sorry
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p.s. my mare happily makes the transition between western and dressage - contact and less-contact. I also have gone "single rein and halter" with one of the other ponies who was always trained with contact, and he is a bear-of-little-brain, and he also managed the transition. These two are very different natures.
 
Thank you everyone who has replied. I think I will go with my gut feeling and carry on riding my horse like I normally do and just having NH groundwork lessons. I can't discuss it with my NH riding trainer, unfortunately, because she is very much of the opinion that I do it "her way or no way" whilst I want to take the elements that work for me and my horse from traditional horsemanship and the bits that work from NH.
 
sorry to say but I would consider looking for a new NH trainer. I understand not everyone sees everyone elses viewpoint but she should be able to understand what you want and if that is doing both NH and dressage then so be it. There should be some compromise from her

Who do you have for your lessons - PM me if you dont want to say on open.
 
I feel sorry for your horse. I find it hard to imagine any horse that would not be badly confused by riding with contact one day and on a loose rein the next. You have to pick on or the other.

On the other hand, if you are taking riding lessons and that hasn't occured to your instructor, then you need a different instructor. Parelli would never put you in a situation where your horse is bucking and bolting, nor would Clinton Anderson, John Lyons, Stacy Westfall, Charles Wilhelm, or any other NH trainer with which I'm familiar. From reading this forum it's kind of frightening what passes for NH in your world.

Riding on a loose rein is foundational to natural horsemanship. Since these people train their horses to do spins and sliding stops without even wearing a bridle, they think the concept of riding with contact is absurd.

On the other hand, riding with contact has been successful for centuries, and if you and your horse are already working happily with that I would think you would need a good reason to change.

But don't try to do both at the same time.
 
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I feel sorry for your horse. I find it hard to imagine any horse that would not be badly confused by riding with contact one day and on a loose rein the next. You have to pick on or the other.

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I'd have to disagree there as I have a mare who is equally happy doing either. And I am not alone as the "versatility" competitions in US show (where a rider will enter a variety of classes crossing both western and "hunt seat" (jumping) disciplies). Plus the American Quarter Horse either has or is about to add dressage into that "pot" of classes that accumulate points. Riders like Lynn Palm effectively "cross-train" their horses to a high level. Its impressive to see *and* she has a great relationship with them (I know, I got to watch her at work for a week some years ago - at her own yard).

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Riding on a loose rein is foundational to natural horsemanship. Since these people train their horses to do spins and sliding stops without even wearing a bridle, they think the concept of riding with contact is absurd.

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now see you connected two things there that don't actually follow each other. Riding on a loose rein *may* be foundational. But that doesn't lead to people thinking riding with a contact is "absurd".

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But don't try to do both at the same time.

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If you mean that *literally* its an impossibility as they are mutually exclusive ! To ride with AND without contact at exactly the same time... unless you are riding two horses like the french chap does ? But to have a horse that accepts either "mode" - perfectly possible. I can go from one to the other in the same tack, in the same schooling session. I just need to be clear and consistent in how I ask.... she gets it.
 
"I feel sorry for your horse" and "From reading this forum it's kind of frightening what passes for NH in your world".

I have to confess that I found these two remarks a bit insulting. I don't think my horse needs anyone's sympathy since he is well looked after and I obviously care about him or I wouldn't be trying to forge the best possible relationship I could with him.

Secondly, I don't think I am living in a different world from everyone else. I am trying to learn as much as I can about NH by taking instruction. I haven't just gone out and bought a book and thought that I could teach myself. I don't mind constructive criticism but this doesn't seem constructive in the slightest.
 
capondeville

thing is that *all* instructors, whatever their discipline, vary.

I am lucky in that I tend to be able to get on with most - but of course feel I "click" better with certain people, and then I feel I get a lot more from working with them. There are also very rare occasions when I just can't work with someone.

And yes that does include NH instructors - I know there is one NH instructor that a lot of people swear by, but I just can't work with. (and NO I am not going to name names as it is not anything to do with the instructor, justhow we combine - or rather don't).

Anyway - I think personal "fit" with an instructor is important and there is nothing wrong with either pupil or instructor if one or other decide to not work with the other any longer.

It helps a lot if the instructor has the same values and principles as you. I personally (when/if I teach) welcome someone having an open mind and looking to other sources of information. I personally would struggle to work with someone who didn't share that approach. (I know I said I am not an NH instructor - I *am* a BHSAI but I don't really teach these days - no time !)
 
Am not sure who you are using!

But NH can be done from either the ground or on board!!!

Its called direct rein or indirect rein!!!!!!!!!!! Am surprised your NH trainer has not told you this or instructed you on this!!!!!!!!!!

Any NH instructor saying its my way only is not a true NH instructor!

A good NH instructor will adapt to each and every horse differently and the owner too!!!!

I can recommend Lewis Blackburn-he trains you from the ground and on board and he trains you and the horse so after a few lessons you should need him less and less!

http://www.blackburnnaturalhorsetraining.com/

He trains olympic dressage riders as well as TB stallions at shadwell.
 
"I feel sorry for your horse. I find it hard to imagine any horse that would not be badly confused by riding with contact one day and on a loose rein the next. You have to pick on or the other"

If both methods are taught, then it is about as confusing as doing grid work one day, and flatwork the next. Give horses credit, they're not stupid animals.

And as to the whole "riding with a contact is absurd" issue...I find the majority of western riders do in fact have great respect for dressage riders who ride with a contact, and many also do both. Can't really think of a specific group of people who think riding on a contact is absurd, except maybe the Nevzorov Haute Ecole people, but then they despise bits and reins in general (please don't get me started on these people either...).
 
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I feel sorry for your horse. I find it hard to imagine any horse that would not be badly confused by riding with contact one day and on a loose rein the next. You have to pick on or the other.



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TBH that statement just shows how little you know about any method of horsemanship
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However, I am now also getting ridden NH instruction (alongside my other traditional weekly lesson) and the two approaches are at such odds with each other that I am starting to think maybe I should stop the NH riding lessons

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I think in that case you need to seriously look at both instructors. I am not a NH instructor, yet an aquaintance of mine is, she taught my husband to ride and we used to discuss training methods and techniques, we found a lot of what we did was very similar and picked up a few tips from each other on how to deal with certain rider/horse problems!
 
Thanks everyone. I had a great groundwork lesson yesterday and have put it all into practice myself today and my horse worked fantastically. Unfortunately, I can't ride at the moment because my shoulder is still hurting and I don't want to aggravate it but it is so nice to be able to interact with Oliver on the ground. He seems to enjoy it and I definitely do.

I have told my NH instructor that I just want to concentrate on groundwork lessons from now on and I am happy with this decision. Thanks for all the positive comments and advice!
 
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