Parelli question - yikes!

Cortez said:
If my horses (who are trained to do non-conventional things) couldn't be handled/ridden by the average person I'd be absolutely mortified! Are we now saying that Parelli trained horses can/should only be handled by P-initiated handlers? That is ridiculous!
Click to expand...

Well, I never said that. My Parelli trained horses were fine being handled by other people, and so are the horses I have now that have been trained nh-style.

I'll be blunt. The people who tend to make my horses over-react are people who think they know how to handle horses well and who go in like bl**dy bulls in a chinashop, grabbing them under the chin, shoving them about and generally expecting the horses to come down to their level. The best people around my horses are the ones who are a bit more subtle and allow the horses some room to move and think and to respond to suggestions. Low energy people, like Wagtail I suspect.
 
AengusOg said:
The trick is to avoid the horse getting stressed.

Remind me to tell you how to achieve this. The information won't be immediately available, as you have no need to know this at the moment. :D
Click to expand...

You've lost me there. :-))

What I was saying was that some horses are always going to have a tendency to come towards the person if they get stressed (ie it's not a Parelli-horse trait). Others will have more of a tendency to run away. We all get stressed sometimes, I think horses are allowed that as well. It's how we help them through that matters.

There's a lot of stuff being quoted on this thread as being a problem with "Parelli horses" that is just horses doing what horses do.
 
My understanding of parelli, NH etc is its common sense in a pretty wrapper. I don't follow any of them religiously but am not against looking at them for advice. As others have said already it's not the "tool" thats the problem its the user. I have met some perfect parelli trained horses and some terrible, that goes for any horse though.
 
Pale Rider said:
Snow Queen, most horses I see that are head shy have had an owner that has tried to cure them nipping or biting and instead of dealing with it appropriately ends up hitting, which isn't right.
Horses are always blamed for poor horse skills by handlers, on this forum more than most.

I don't and won't defend poor trainer's conventional, Parelli or any other brand of NH.

Some make the biggest balls of Parelli going, and they always seem to be the ones people know about.

There are a lot in the program who are far more skillful than either of the Parelli's, but they don't get a mention.
Click to expand...


I'm in no way advocating parelli, for my part I can't stand it, but whilst I do not disagree with you that for many head shy horses the root cause is often human hands or versions of, to say the horse must have been hit is still a very sweeping generalisation in my opinion.
 
The_Snow_Queen said:
I'm in no way advocating parelli, for my part I can't stand it, but whilst I do not disagree with you that for many head shy horses the root cause is often human hands or versions of, to say the horse must have been hit is still a very sweeping generalisation in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Ditto this. When we got Felix as a yearling he was completely neurotic over his nose. He had never ever been beaten or roughly handled, but he was convinced that if a human came near his nose he was going to die. The only thing we can put it down to is that he does have a pink nose which may have got a little burnt and sensitive the previous year and he'd remembered.

Anyhows, we persuaded him that he wasn't going to die and he's been relatively OK with his nose ever since. Although if we do get behind with the suncream he can start up again which is what made us wonder whether it was sunburn related.
 
PaleRider I live in the real world thank you.

As to where I 'hang out' well previous to the last few months I was a freelance qualified instructor and rider for many years. And I don't mean riding 4 horses a week and calling myself freelance, I mean a full time, proper freelance.
As such, it was my job to go round MANY yards and meet MANY different people who have horses.
And from that, MY EXPERIENCE of Parelli is as I have already stated. Only one of them actually rode and the rest were mainly bargy, aggressive and/or confused.

So as that's all I've seen of so--called Parelli training, ill be sticking to my opinion thanks.
 
Snowflakedale said:
I'm not talking about MY horses!

What are you reading!? :eek:
Click to expand...

I dont live on mars (though cornwall is probably not too far away!! lol). I only know one person who properly follows parelli. She does not ride her horse and is scared to do so (through no fault of the horse I must say). She has had horses in the past who have been perfectly fine to ride and yet she would not ride them. Saying that, i never had any problem leading her in and out of the field and she was a nice enough horse to handle. However, in the stable on day i lifted my hand with the rope to do something (probs itch my nose or something) and she flew backwards. Again, I do not think much of the parelli brand. some of the things they do are just common sense and people (like myself) who do not practice natural horsemanship as such still do these things with their horses.

On here once I said how my young boy knows back by me putting my hand towards his chest and sometimes it just needs me to touch his chest before he moves and, in the beginning, I needed to apply pressure to his chest. I was told I was horrible and i need physical force to move him back. Well how do people using parelli teach their horse back in the first place?

I have no problem if people want to practice parelli. Whilst I do not personally see the benefit of following it as a whole, each to their own. It is the people who think they are better than anyone else and that they are the only ones who possibly know who to handle a horse and that their horses are the only perfect ones that annoy me the most.
 
You see the problem is that people quote experience of one or maybe several "Parelli" people and their horses. If we're really unlucky they lump all of the "nh" trainers under that Parelli banner and condemn them accordingly (Buck Brannaman is poles apart from Pat Parelli for example). Then they make sweeping generalisations about the whole thing based on that very limited experience.
It's a bit like me coming on here and saying that I know someone who is trained by the resident trainer at my big local livery yard who is totally ineffective and never rides their horse, and then extrapolating that all of the people that person trains are the same. It would be a bit silly wouldn't it? The thing is, we tend to notice when things aren't going well, we don't think so much about the people in the background who are just going along in their normal efficient way having a great time with their horses. It just seems really daft to me that people pick on any one system to such an extent when we all know that bad horsemanship is seen all over the place on a regular basis and that the people concerned come from all sorts of backgrounds. I know lots of really good horsepeople who come from the nh side of things, and for the most part you wouldn't know that they do. They use the same tack as anyone else, they do the same things with their horses, they ride, they have fun...
When Parelli people go bad they're so visible aren't they? With their orange sticks and 7 Games... It creates a distorted impression. Anyone else gets to be useless with their horse in relative anonymity because they look the same as everyone else at their yard and blend in.
:-))
 
I have never met a horse trained with Parelli but as Tinypony says there are bargy, headshy, twitchy/nervous, confused etc. horses everywhere. I've seen loads and I include one or two of mine until I got my act together and fully took on board that it was up to me to learn how to manage and train them. When I had many less tools and skills I tended to get frustrated but it was because I felt I should know what to do and the fact I didn't reflected on me and bruised my ego. Now I've got more tools and always put the horse first I remain calm and go with the flow. It's so much nicer even if sometimes the plan goes to pot. So what... the world wont end.
 
Tinypony said:
You've lost me there. :-))

What I was saying was that some horses are always going to have a tendency to come towards the person if they get stressed (ie it's not a Parelli-horse trait). Others will have more of a tendency to run away. We all get stressed sometimes, I think horses are allowed that as well. It's how we help them through that matters.

There's a lot of stuff being quoted on this thread as being a problem with "Parelli horses" that is just horses doing what horses do.
Click to expand...

I was having a joke and alluding to the fact that PNH is taught in 'blocks', and that certain information only becomes available at different stages in the process. Nothing personal.:)

Some horses indeed will try to run over their handlers if they are 'stressed', and it is not something peculiar to PNH-trained horses, I agree.

However, the tendency to do this is increased by the handler's failure to recognise that the horse is being put in the position where that behaviour is its only option.

I think there is more potential for this to happen where the handler/trainer is inexperienced and dependant on tuition by DVD. Where an experienced trainer/handler of horses would be able to read the horse and avoid extreme reactions and behaviours, the amateur PNH bod will be unable to do this and, not having their training-by-numbers package to hand, will run into difficulties.

I have met countless PNH practioners over many years, and I have always come away feeling sorry for their horses, and thinking how PNH makes the simplest things complicated and difficult for horse and handler. I'm not sure if these people would do more with their horses if they'd chosen a different approach to training them, but I don't think PNH was their best choice.

I am pretty sure, though, that lots of the people I've met are quite sure that they can learn nothing from me.

I have seen quite a lot of PNH-trained horses which are very inclined to stick their heads in the air and take rapid steps to perform what they perceive to be required of them. I think that is a symptom of the use of 'phases' of pressure in their training; the reason I have never taken PNH seriously as a means of training horses.
 
Personally, I find it astonishing that people who claim to love their horses, and have decided to go down the NH route because they feel it is "kinder" or "gentler" for their horses, can condone Pat and Linda Parelli's actions and training methods.

I have seen too many horrific things happening to horses at the hands of these two to think even for a moment that they are kind or gentle. If their disgraceful treatment of Catwalk isn't enough to put people off, the video of Linda hitting a horse with no sight in one eye in the face with a metal clip should surely do so? If that isn't enough, what about withholding water? Or the numerous videos of Pat Parelli "curing" bad loaders? I wouldn't want such a useless idiot anywhere near my horses - from what I've seen they're cruel, ignorant and not worth a moment's notice.

I am also shocked that people don't seem aware that it's a huge marketing game. Look at other NH practitioners who give their knowledge away for very little money or for free, in books, clinics and on the internet. Then look at the Parellis, who charge extortionate amounts of money for each "level".

Madness. Utter madness.

Also, Linda's ridiculous hat annoys me.
 
I agree with you AengusOg. I can't condone the Parelli method of training because I feel it produces heavy handed people, and reactive horses. It's by far not the kindest way to train a horse, however I feel that about a lot of what I see in more conventional settings. Parelli also overlooks the quality of the horse's response, so as you say, you see all these horses backing up with heads in the air, or even just a brace in the neck. The same goes for circling with the head twisted to the outside, lateral flexion without true flexion... don't get me started. :-) For many of us it was a starting point, and so on these threads I'm just sharing an understanding and what I learnt of the system as a student, rather than saying I support and use it now.
Having said all of that... I do know people who seem to have managed to avoid the pitfalls of being Parelli students and who have nice, well rounded horses that are just great to be around.
About the "levels" - when I was a student, if we asked a question that was too complicated or that was covered at a higher level, we were told we didn't have enough "savvy" to understand the answer yet. ROFLMAO!
 
Am I the only person who thinks its easier to teach a horse to back or move away on vocal command?

Much easier than finger waving or had gestures and can't be misinterpreted.
 
What gets me started is the all knowing person who starts bleating on about how bad natural horsemanship is and they quote one person who they know on their yard who's obviously crap with horses, and crap with everything else, then lump everyone together.
All Parelli training isn't bad, and certainly doesn't deserve the slagging off it gets by people who obviously know f all about it.
I get into enough trouble with Parelli because of my own criticisms of it, but at least I know what I'm talking about.

As I keep saying Parelli is only one trainer, but they have opened the door internationally for people like Buck and others.

Parelli gets people started, some do no more than tit about with an orange stick, others move on rapidly to massive skill levels and relationships others can only dream of.
 
Agree with the others Im afraid. Parelli is for people who are inept at normal methods or have overhorsed themselves and feel the Parelli is the way forward. People just can't get it into their heads that they are overhorsed and blame the horse for their lack of ability.

No parelli folk I see ride their horses either, but they all want to be dressagers/ SJers but cant, so do this game messing about stuff. (oddly still get nowhere!).

Catwalk was the utter disgrace! Glad to see him out at Olympia this year after his ordeal.

As far as I am concerned they are preying on the stupid and making a hell of a load of Wonga from it!

You will never see me with a carrot stick and overly long headcollar and rope!

*Rant over*
 
A long lead rope (12ft) is very useful, I don't like short ones anymore. If things do go pear shaped you have much more control/leverage, room to keep out of the way but still have hold of the horse and the horse doesn't seem to feel so restricted.

btw. I know zip about Parelli. lol
 
amandap said:
A long lead rope (12ft) is very useful, I don't like short ones anymore. If things do go pear shaped you have much more control/leverage, room to keep out of the way but still have hold of the horse and the horse doesn't seem to feel so restricted.

btw. I know zip about Parelli. lol
Click to expand...

I like the long lead ropes too, very handy. Also like the slightly longer ones for lunging on windy days as the clip stops it flapping in the wind and pulling on the horse. I have no idea how much it all costs though, I didn't buy it, and probably couldn't afford too!
 
lastchancer said:
Or it's had the rope shook in it's face that hard that the clip smacks it instead.
Click to expand...

That was my first thought because of the training. If parelli not mentioned I'd have said face flicked with rope/headcollar/hand.

In this post I think parelli is entirely relevant as that's the training used - and like with any training there's a lot of interpretation involved.
 
dominobrown said:
I like the long lead ropes too, very handy. Also like the slightly longer ones for lunging on windy days as the clip stops it flapping in the wind and pulling on the horse. I have no idea how much it all costs though, I didn't buy it, and probably couldn't afford too!
Click to expand...

I use one... cost less than a standard leadrope. I never use it long for leading, however if a horse wants to go up or forwards fast, I can reel it out and keep safely out of the way and not lose the horse. Was the best piece of kit I had when taking on a rearer in hand. She hasn't reared in a very long time and I could hold her in the time while stepping safely back from her so it didn't get her anywhere. It also means that you can hang on rather than them tanking off with a leadrope to crunch under foot (ouch :( )
 
dominobrown said:
I like the long lead ropes too, very handy. Also like the slightly longer ones for lunging on windy days as the clip stops it flapping in the wind and pulling on the horse. I have no idea how much it all costs though, I didn't buy it, and probably couldn't afford too!
Click to expand...
The ones I've got have normal clips on. I have a wool/acrylic one I love but can't seem to find another 12ft version. I just buy them if I come across them, they're not common but you can get various ones online without the heavy bull clip.
 
amandap said:
The ones I've got have normal clips on. I have a wool/acrylic one I love but can't seem to find another 12ft version. I just buy them if I come across them, they're not common but you can get various ones online without the heavy bull clip.
Click to expand...

Rokers have them. Like a standard lead but longer.
 
This is quite an interesting thread. My own view is that parelli does market and repackage what many traditional horsemen have done for years. Every horse is different and I think there are some good techniques I would use with the right horse - just another tool in my horsey toolbox as it were.

A friend of mine who had been on a few of the courses in Florida, had a horse which I felt was difficult to handle on the ground simply because he was oversensitive and overtrained. Unless she told you which 'wrong' signals you were giving him he simply would not stand to be groomed etc. Which was frustrating for both parties. Once you knew it was fine, but as another poster said just scratching your nose could trigger him to shoot backwards/sideways and I never felt relaxed about him. Similarly he never seemed relaxed and happy around people as he was always looking for the smallest signal. You couldn't just tie him up with a haynet and enjoy grooming him/spending time with him as this seemed a chore for him as he was ever alert. Ridden however he was great as he was used to sticks etc being waved around his head and he was very laid back and desensitised to many objects.

I didn't know the horse before, so can't tell if he was just a grumpy git by nature, but he never seemed a very happy horse while being handled, and never really wanted to spend time with people. At liberty in the school he would do all the tricks but with ears back and looking unwilling. I think myself he was overtrained - which obviously can occur in any discipline when the horse is trained to a high level and not enough care taken. He was at a livery yard and anyone handling him had to be briefed on what to do/what not to do. He had to be sedated to be trimmed as the farriers kept giving him the wrong signals and eventually my friend started trimming him herself as it was easier that way. Maybe this simply is an example of an overtrained horse as so many dressage/sj/competition horses are.
 
Hollycatt said:
This is quite an interesting thread. My own view is that parelli does market and repackage what many traditional horsemen have done for years. Every horse is different and I think there are some good techniques I would use with the right horse - just another tool in my horsey toolbox as it were.

A friend of mine who had been on a few of the courses in Florida, had a horse which I felt was difficult to handle on the ground simply because he was oversensitive and overtrained. Unless she told you which 'wrong' signals you were giving him he simply would not stand to be groomed etc. Which was frustrating for both parties. Once you knew it was fine, but as another poster said just scratching your nose could trigger him to shoot backwards/sideways and I never felt relaxed about him. Similarly he never seemed relaxed and happy around people as he was always looking for the smallest signal. You couldn't just tie him up with a haynet and enjoy grooming him/spending time with him as this seemed a chore for him as he was ever alert. Ridden however he was great as he was used to sticks etc being waved around his head and he was very laid back and desensitised to many objects.

I didn't know the horse before, so can't tell if he was just a grumpy git by nature, but he never seemed a very happy horse while being handled, and never really wanted to spend time with people. At liberty in the school he would do all the tricks but with ears back and looking unwilling. I think myself he was overtrained - which obviously can occur in any discipline when the horse is trained to a high level and not enough care taken. He was at a livery yard and anyone handling him had to be briefed on what to do/what not to do. He had to be sedated to be trimmed as the farriers kept giving him the wrong signals and eventually my friend started trimming him herself as it was easier that way. Maybe this simply is an example of an overtrained horse as so many dressage/sj/competition horses are.
Click to expand...


Yes, I have handled a few Parelli instructors' horses and I suppose it was a bit like me being put on top of one of Carl Hester's horses? I kept doing too much, much more than I needed, and therefore the horses were like Ferraris on ropes. I'd like to think I might handle that differently now, as I'm being taught to ask with as little as possible first and give the horse a chance. I shouldn't think that there are going to be many PNH students training their horses to that level though, and in a lot of cases quoted the reactions are down to poor training. As I said before, it tends to build in reactiveness rather than responsiveness to me.
 
Parelli did not open doors for Buck. He would kept doing what he did without the film maker. Making better people and horses. Knew of him way before Parelli. I spent time with people who knew these older guys including Ray Hunt.

Terri
 
Pale Rider said:
What gets me started is the all knowing person who starts bleating on about how bad natural horsemanship is and they quote one person who they know on their yard who's obviously crap with horses, and crap with everything else, then lump everyone together.
All Parelli training isn't bad, and certainly doesn't deserve the slagging off it gets by people who obviously know f all about it.
I get into enough trouble with Parelli because of my own criticisms of it, but at least I know what I'm talking about.

As I keep saying Parelli is only one trainer, but they have opened the door internationally for people like Buck and others.

Parelli gets people started, some do no more than tit about with an orange stick, others move on rapidly to massive skill levels and relationships others can only dream of.
Click to expand...

so now no one is allowed an opinion on whether it is a good thing to do or not? a lot of people on here said "in their experience from what they have seen". yes, some of us may not have much experience of practising parelli itself or only know a couple that do it but it doesnt mean that we are not allowed to say that "from what we have seen" we do not agree with the methods or will not use them ourselves. Nuff said as I obviously do not know what i am talking about
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top