Parelli

[Pale Rider]

Getting stupid this thread, again, such disappointment, lol.
People are arguing at cross purposes without an understanding of technique.

 

[FreddiesGal]

I didn't imply that physical force was bad. What I did say what that I would rather be able to move my horse without using it.


Each to their own, there is more than one way to skin a snake

 

[fburton]

Yes, sometimes I do send him away from 3 metres, sometimes 5. Why shouldn't I? He should respect my space.

No reason at all why you shouldn't if that's what you want to do - it's a free country! However, the attitude to "respect" is one of things I find most troubling about Parelli -the insistence on demanding it through ground exercises. Why should I feel that my horse is disrespectful if he doesn't push me around, is careful not to bump me, goes where I ask him to go, yields easily in any direction, stands still when I want, etc.? That to me is "respectful" behaviour, whatever he actually happens to be thinking of me - and that is plenty good enough for me in terms of behaviour. Actually, I rather hope that, in addition to the good manners just mentioned, he feels comfortable and safe in my presence, trusts me not to spring any nasty surprises on him - even that he likes me and looks to me for protection. Those are the thoughts and attitudes that I strive to foster in horses, not slavish obedience and submission. In fact, I believe that true respect - if it can be said to exist at all - is something to be earned by my good behaviour - it cannot be imposed by my doing things to the horse. I'm sorry but I cannot see what getting a horse to back away from 3 metres has to do with that. Obedience? Sure, but not respect.

Metal clip? I don't remember mentioning a metal clip?

You didn't, but that is what I have seen in Parelli DVDs and clips on YouTube.

 

[fburton]

Any pressure applied is physical force.

Of course! Surely we all can at least agree that minimizing the amount of force we need to use to get a horse to do something, and finding that as quickly as possible, is worth striving for? We want to make the whole process as pleasant as possible for the horse (and us!) while still being effective.

 

[AengusOg]

For Natural Horsemanship be it Parelli or anyone else's all you need is a head collar, a 12foot rope and the knowledge of course.

I agree with your principle of simplicity, but 'feel' is more important than knowledge.

This is where PNH becomes vulnerable, as it tries to teach people to train horses by remote instruction. The most knowledgeable, without feel, may struggle to train horses.

 

[AengusOg]

I agree with your principle of simplicity, but 'feel' is more important than knowledge.

This is where PNH becomes vulnerable, as it tries to teach people to train horses by remote instruction. The most knowledgeable, without feel, may struggle to train horses.

Actually, I mean that PNH, by use of remote instruction, attempts to teach people to train horses.

 

[Pale Rider]

AengusOg, I have to agree, without feel no one can train a horse to the level I for one seek to achieve. You can see when someone has got it, but to teach it is virtually impossible.

As far as knowledge goes, you really need some understanding of horses.
It's all very well people twittering on about pressure, it's the release of pressure that horses learn from. That's the most fundamental mistake I see with most training, no one releases fast enough or soon enough. That's why I hate these pressure halters, they don't teach anything. You can get compliance, but that's not enough for me, it does for most though.

 

[fburton]

It's all very well people twittering on about pressure, it's the release of pressure that horses learn from.

Yes, although you can't have release of pressure without pressure! I understand what you're saying though - that much of the skill and effectiveness in using negative reinforcement is in the timing of the release - I totally agree. That doesn't mean that there isn't any finesse associated with applying the pressure. Knowing or intuiting the appropriate minimum amount to apply, and what you do if that isn't sufficient (or is too much), and how quickly you adjust, is also important, in my opinion.

That's the most fundamental mistake I see with most training, no one releases fast enough or soon enough.

Of the American trainers that I have seen, Mark Rashid and Leslie Desmond are particularly strong on this point. (I am sure there are others.)

That's why I hate these pressure halters, they don't teach anything. You can get compliance, but that's not enough for me, it does for most though.

Instruction and practice helps, I'm sure. Compliance is quite easy to obtain with them, lightness less so. Anyone who understands 'feel' and has worked on developing it will have no problem using a pressure halter. However, they will also be less likely to need to use one in the first place.

 

[jeeve]

Getting stupid this thread, again, such disappointment, lol.
People are arguing at cross purposes without an understanding of technique.

Agreed - your expectations are too high

 

[diamondrockharvey]

You can join Parelli Connect free of charge for 30 days which goes you access to their Level one material so you can make your own mind up

 

[Pale Rider]

I'm not too keen on the terms of positive and negative reinforcement, I'm not sure that there is a good enough understanding with lots thinking positive is good negative is bad. Set that aside, as it creates dispute in itself.
Developing feel allows the application of the minimum amount of pressure to achieve the desired response.
Even the weight of one finger on the rein requires removal the instant the horse initiates the response. Obviously, I'm using this as an example as we would hope to get a response prior to having to bring the rein into play.
I understand what the formulaic lesson Parelli is attempting to promote in the lower levels, but new horse riders and even conventional ones are as they appear harsh and clumsy in trying to get to grips with the concept of feel which is difficult to explain in any event.
Once the penny does drop, the glaring over application of pressure and lack of timing and lightness by anyone who is still in the lower levels is painful to watch, but it's a bit unfair to be overly critical.
Couple this with the conventional rider, whose education in feel is non existant unless they have been extremely lucky makes the whole ethos of Natural Horsemanship in it's pure form difficult to put over.

 

[fburton]

I'm not too keen on the terms of positive and negative reinforcement,

To be frank, neither am I. They too easily lead to misunderstanding. If I had a chance to replace them, I'd use the terms "additive" and "subtractive" instead. At least "subtractive" makes it clearer that something is being taken away (with horses, usually pressure) and that it is not inherently bad, as the word "negative" leads many to assume.