passports and livery contracts

i wouldnt leave my passport with the YO for convenience as much as anything, its hard enough to get hold of her for hay/straw/changing light bulbs, never mind to get documents to travel
 
I have just spoken to both Defra and trading standards. I am now waiting for a call back re the legalities of producing the passport on demand at the yard. And who is legally responsible for the fine. I will put it up as soon as I get the response, but both DEFRA and Trading Standards have stated it must be kept with the horse at the yard.
 
Well I would expect the owner of the horse is responsible for the fine.....which will likely be advertised as up to £5,000 fine and this does not imply that the fine will be anything like this.....more likely £100 fine.
 
On the defra website it states that trading standards are only responsible for enforcing the law relating to the sale of horses without passports, the Food Standards Agency for the part of the law relating to horse slaughter, Police deal with travelling of horses etc.

Where does it say that Trading Standards (who deal with things sold) will inspect yards and will fine if passports are not produced on demand. It doesnt make sense.
 
Sparklet

I will say again - I have SPOKEN to Defra and Trading standards as the BHS stated that passports must be kept with the horse. Over the phone by all three I have been told that passports must be kept on the yard with the horse. And yes the fine is up to £5000 but I have no intention of paying anyone elses fine even if it is only £100. And trading standards are responsible - according to Defra for checking passports.

It is a complete crock of S*** but no one person seems to know, the web sites are worse than useless and each county seems to be interpreting it in a different fashion.

As a yard owner I want to be sure I have the correct information, I can assure you I do not want to look after people's passports but if that is what the law requires then I have to ensure the contract I use reflects the law.

Now just need a definitive answer from Defra or Trading standards!!!!!!!
 
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I have just spoken to both Defra and trading standards. I am now waiting for a call back re the legalities of producing the passport on demand at the yard. And who is legally responsible for the fine. I will put it up as soon as I get the response, but both DEFRA and Trading Standards have stated it must be kept with the horse at the yard.

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The key to this point would be 'what constitues a reasonable amount of time to produce the passport'
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Just because the passport is stored on the livery yard, with the horse, doesn't necessarily mean that it is readily available and 'to hand'
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My passport lives on the lorry which is parked at the yard...so technically legal....yet I have the keys to my lorry and live 20 minutes drive away.
 
It would seem that if you hold the passport - and that is one question - then according to the BHS contract you can sell the horse if the livery bill is not paid for a specified period. However it has to be once all the attempts have been made to recover the money, ie you have requested it x number of times, you have put it in writing x number of times, you have been to small claims court etc, then and only then can you invoke the clause - in the meantime you have a duty of care to look after the horse.

So it comes back to the question - are you legally obliged to keep the passport. Bloody thing... just goes round in circles and back to same stupidity of passports
 
This seems to be the main issue though doesnt it?

My YO is currently taking over ownership of a horse because of non payment or livery and is working through a solicitor. The solicitor has demanded the passport from the owner so the horse can be sold. It is entirely possible and doable but takes a little longer.

It was discussed by some at our place that the YO should hold the passports but as she is not always available and like another poster above getting hay/light bulbs is a pain trying to get my passport every time I compete would be an utter nightmare because I am out several times a week and it is illegal for me to transport my horse without the passport (that bit I can find in the myriad of defra babble on the issue).

Your happy hackers may not mind too much but anyone who travels their horse a lot is more likely to object - theortically you can put whatever you like in your contract and if your liveries dont like it they can refuse to sign or move elsewhere.
 
Well our yard doesnt have a safe or any such rule about keeping passports there so its a moot point really.

I wouldnt go to a yard where I had to hand over my passport as I said. It just doesnt seem right to me, I wouldnt hand over my dogs paperwork if they were staying in a kennels.

also if the yard was broken into and the safe was broken into, my passport would be in the hands of thieves.

I prefer all legal documents in my posession as then only I am responsible for anything going missing and there is no blame to be passed around.
 
So from what you are saying am I right in thinking that it would be the YO who would be fined and not the Horse Owner if the Passports are not present at the Yard in the event of an inspection? Even though as many people have stated they are not prepared to leave a horses passport with thier YO. Doesn't seem fair to me
 
Well that is the point now I am waiting for the Trading standard people to clarify. Who is legally required to hold teh passport - if I am to be fined as a yard owner if the passport is not present then to be honest anyone wishing to keep the horse on the yard has to have a passport in my keeping - oitherwise find another yard. If however the owner of the horse is responsible then as long as I see the passport and can take a copy as proof that a passport exists - then fine

If you think about it - we hand over a dogs certificate when it in kennels, we hand over our own passports when abroad on holiday - leaving them in the hotel's hands. I can't see the difference
 
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we hand over our own passports when abroad on holiday - leaving them in the hotel's hands.

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I certainly don't! My passport never leaves my being on holiday.
 
Well you must go to some different places to me - in France, Germany, Brazil, Carribean, Italy Morocco, Austria - they all take your passports off you and keep them in the safe. If you want them you have to ask for them take them out then give them back.
 
I've been to all the same places but I have never ever given up my passport except for the 10 minutes it takes to check into the hotel.....and then it is handed back to me.
 
Its not really to do with my YO - she is brilliant and I have no issues with her at all. The problem I have is the incredible inconvenience having to go and get my passport from her house every time I want to take my horse out in the lorry - which is at least twice weekly.

She has a life outside the yard so will not necessarily be present to give me it and take it back. I can envisage lost entries because I cant travel or my having to take the risk and travel without it which is mentioned in the DEFRA guidelines as being specifically illegal - whereas not producing a passport 'immediately' when asked at a livery yard is not mentioned.

There is no evidence that the YO will be responsible for the fine which appears to be levied if a passport cannot be produced at all.

I can completely understand the views of a YO if they thought they were going to be fined £5000 for each horse they could not immediately produce a passport for - there is no evidence so far that this is the case. It will be interesting to have an update from Bosworth when all the respective agencies get back to her/him. Having said all that my passport is in my lorry and the lorry and keys are both kept at the yard so my YO does not have to worry.
 
YO is breaking the law if they don't hold the passport - and yes there have been checks on yards.

The YO is liable to a huge fine if the original passport is not on the yard. Photocopies do not count. The YO must give it to you if you are travelling the horse.
 
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YO is breaking the law if they don't hold the passport - and yes there have been checks on yards.

The YO is liable to a huge fine if the original passport is not on the yard. Photocopies do not count. The YO must give it to you if you are travelling the horse.

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As yet no-one has been able to provide a link to show where in law it states that the YO must hold the passport and that the YO is fined if it cannot be produced.

Do you have one?
 
See, when passports came in, it was stated that the horse owner MUST get a passport or be fined. If the OWNER is the one responsible for getting the paperwork, then the OWNER is the one who should be legally liable if a yard is inspected and a horse found not to have one.

Common sense would say - not that I'm confident you'll ever get that out of Defra - that the owner is legally responsible for keeping the passport and paying any fines. The guidelines should be all YO would be advised to check all liveries hold a valid passport and keep a copy, and that inspections, if unannounced - require any owners not present with their passports to produce one issued before the date of the inspection, within 7 days say, or be personally fined and held responsible unless they can prove extenuating circumstances ie out of the country or in hospital so can't get there, or horse has only just been purchased and does not have one - so would need a receipt etc.

My own view is as I was responsible for getting the passport, it stays with me not the un-horsey farmer where I keep the horse. They would not appreciate being disturbed every time we needed to get it back to compete!

I'd also NEVER leave the passoport in a lorry - thats a huge invitation to theives, here - steal my lorry and horse and you can even produce a passport for it!!!

Nope, stays at home. I live about 3 miles away and could easily get there within 30 mins to produce it.
 
Theres a big difference between what the law says and the reality of how it is policed and enforced. All of us have broken the law at some point. Many of those laws carry big fines or imprisonment - photocopying a magazine article or making a copy of a tape or CD in breach of copyright for example. Given the state of this country I suspect the police and courts have better things to do with their time than prosecute yard owners for not having a passport for each of their liveries. I seem to remember a post on here ages ago where someone was asked by the police to show their horses passport and was allowed to come into the police station with it as opposed to showing it immediately (which she didn't have on her).

Personally I wouldn't be happy signing such a contract on principle and in no way would I be handng over my horses passport.
 
it could be worth asking ts/bhs etc weather keeping a copy of the passport is satisfactory, as by taking a copy of the main [ages your are proving the horse has the passport, all t/s would need to do if they ever turned up would be to call the issuing office and confirm the horses details,

Bicton state in their diy/full livery argreements that they MUST see the passport, once seen the number goes onfile and they sign the contract saying they have seen it etc.

im guessing thats a compramise, i wouldnt leave my passport in the possesion of anyone but myself, you wouldnt be the keeper of the horse, so in theory wouldnt be required to have hold of them.
 
If any liverys are a member of the countryside alliance this also gives them third party liability in the event of any accidents... And all for £3 a month
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