Passports - did you know???

digitalangel

digitalangel

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Just wondering if everyone knew this or not.

Ive long believed that passports are not a proof of ownership and receipts are - however if you do not change the details with the PIO within 30 days you are liable for a 5k fine?

Interesting because in the defra guidelines it only says this:

If you buy a horse, pony or donkey, let the PIO know you’re the new owner within 30 days.

in the scottish ones, it says ' should'

it never says must or that if you dont youre liable for a 5k fine!

I am wondering how dealers get around this leglislation or even if they knew?

The legislation itself does not specifically say its illegal to sell a horse without your details in it so im wondering how on earth dealers do this - every horse ive bought from a dealer and some even from private sellers has not had up to date ownership details in it. its never much bothered me though as ive always thought proof is in the receipt.

Sale of horses

4.—(1) An owner who sells a horse must give its passport to the buyer at the time of the sale.

(2) The buyer must notify the transaction to the passport issuing organisation for registration of the new ownership within 30 days, and include—

(a)the buyer’s name and address, and
(b)the identification of the horse.
(3) In this regulation “sell” includes any transfer of ownership.

(4) Failure to comply with this regulation is an offence.
 
Same if you move house. £5k and/or 6mths per passport which is out of date.

I'm still waiting to be clapped in irons and hauled off for my 6yrs in jail, as I refuse to pay out more in 'horse taxes' than my ponies are worth - hence all are out of date.

I doubt the ponies care any more than I do!
 
Other than at affiliated competitions it's very very rare to have anyone even ask to see a passport (hence lots of horses don't have one) let alone someone check whether the owner details in it are right.
I suspect nobody has ever received this fine - therefore I'll leave it in the list of things to worry about when all the real worries are sorted !

Worst case I'll just say the horses are on loan from the person in the passport - one of mine is at least two owners ago.
 
Nice plan Polo's mum.

It has occurred to me that so long as I have one passport in my name, I can show that to the copper - never met one that can tell one horse from another.

Alternatively I'll ask them to hold the horse for me whilst I go look for the paperwork. I can see the panic in their eyes now. lol.
 
Well I'll just have to be an offender then because I can't get my passport updated until the breed society registration certificate is updated to reflect change of ownership - since that society is in the USA and they currently have a minimum 90 day backlog in registrations and transfers (assuming paperwork arrives in one piece, which quite often it does not!), it could well be some time before the passport gets a look-in!!
 
I have just paid thirty odd quid for two changes to my girls passport , ownership and her reg name on it. The service from the HPA was patronising and poor took two attempts to remove a duplicated name. No wonder why most don't bother.
 
It is a struggle to do this with horses with foreign passports. It is difficult to find out where to send them and I have read online (when looking for advice) that many breed societies are not interested in changing ownership on passports unless it is a stallion or graded mare... I am afraid we have put it off with one of ours that we bought several months ago :o
 
and i have never bothered either - i spoke to Defra today and they did say that passports are NOT proof of ownership, which is why ive always kept receptis, vettings, old insurance docs, etc.

most of mine are dutch and KWPN can be very slow as are the dutch passport agency.
 
Welsh pony and cob society:
"It is the vendors responsibility to notify the Welsh pony and cob society of any transfers of owner ship of a pony/cob and to return the passport to the office along with appropriate fee."
 
lamlyn2012 said:
Welsh pony and cob society:
"It is the vendors responsibility to notify the Welsh pony and cob society of any transfers of owner ship of a pony/cob and to return the passport to the office along with appropriate fee."
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When the person collects the horse and you accept the money they have to have the passport to travel the horse so how can you return the passport to the issuer.
 
thats what i wondered too! it makes no sense the way that passports are done.

When i asked Defra about dealers, he stated all dealers should put the horses they buy in their names.
 
I am just filling in a change of ownership form for a broodmare (Tb) with Weatherbys and before the form used to be a "change of ownership form" but is now a "change of reported ownership form". I also have to sign at the bottom that "I understand that the reported ownership record is for Weatherbys administration purposes only and does not infer Legal Title to the animal". Obviously therefore, the passport is not worth the paper its written on and if I wasn't breeding the mare I wouldn't bother changing the ownership especially as it costs 57 euros or 47 Stg (but maybe its cheaper for geldings and non breeding mares).
 
I have just found this out and was discussing it with hubby last night. I hadn't bothered changing the name in the passport of my mare I lost. I have just got another new horse and I am going to use a copy of the transfer of ownership form as my 'proof of sale/ownership' as I know that the passport proves nothing and I have no receipt of sale. The notes regarding changing the name of ownership in the passport were very verbose and threatening with the 30 day deadline etc.

It does to me seem incredible that the 'owner' has to sign the 'transfer of ownership form' yet the passport does not prove ownershoip - bizarre imo !
 
I think the entire passport system needs an overhaul to be honest. Im not sure how Defra think we can comply with these kinds of regulations when the legislation is so unclear to begin with!
 
Well me and a friend bought a pony for our kids to share so obviously havnt changed passport ownership because thier isnt an option for dual ownership anyway so how would that work!?

Passports are a waste of time and arnt worth the paper their printed on anyway IMO
 
hrimfaxi said:
It is a struggle to do this with horses with foreign passports. It is difficult to find out where to send them and I have read online (when looking for advice) that many breed societies are not interested in changing ownership on passports unless it is a stallion or graded mare... I am afraid we have put it off with one of ours that we bought several months ago :o
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The Cleveland Bay Horse Society are. It is a big problem for us as pure bred CB's are lost when they change hands. As the breed is on the RBST 'critical' list we are in the throes of doing a census. Anyone who has not notified us of change of ownership/address should do so please.
 
sywell said:
When the person collects the horse and you accept the money they have to have the passport to travel the horse so how can you return the passport to the issuer.
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Exactly and as a buyer would you trust a seller you did not know to send it to the issuer in a timely fashion .I would not.
And you need it for the journey home .
The whole thing is an unworkable mess.
If there was a change of ownership form with each passport that the seller filled in and mailed to PIO while the passport stayed with the new owner until they mailed it in then that would mean the new owner had the passport and the PIO are informed of the sale by the seller.
 
I was aware of this, and assumed it was personal PIO things, not law or legislation, and therefore probably un impose able(SP). With the possible advent of just ONE PIO (finally) this could well either change or become a law.
 
sywell said:
When the person collects the horse and you accept the money they have to have the passport to travel the horse so how can you return the passport to the issuer.
Click to expand...

I filled in the passport, wrote a cheque to WPCS, put an SAE with the new owners name on it, popped it in an envelope and gave it to the buyer when she came to pick up the pony. I then asked her to pop it in the post when she arrived home. Simples :-)
 
So what does this mean in real terms - I forgot to change the name in my youngsters passport - is it an automatic fine??? I certainly can't afford it? I have only just had the signed form back from the breeder 18 months after I brought him - and she has left it undated?
 
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Goldenstar said:
Exactly and as a buyer would you trust a seller you did not know to send it to the issuer in a timely fashion .I would not.
And you need it for the journey home .
The whole thing is an unworkable mess.
If there was a change of ownership form with each passport that the seller filled in and mailed to PIO while the passport stayed with the new owner until they mailed it in then that would mean the new owner had the passport and the PIO are informed of the sale by the seller.
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which is pretty much what happens with the V5 log book for a car and seems to have worked effectively for decades - so you'd have thought a sensible approach - then the passport could be used as proof of ownership (as a V5 is for a car) then people might bother to use them properly.

Trouble is Defra are only bothered about the meat trade and as 95% of owners don't consider their pets to be fit for human consumption they just don't bother spending money on a piece of paper relevant only in the event of slaughter for human consumption
 
millsandboon said:
I filled in the passport, wrote a cheque to WPCS, put an SAE with the new owners name on it, popped it in an envelope and gave it to the buyer when she came to pick up the pony. I then asked her to pop it in the post when she arrived home. Simples :-)
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It would still be the buyers responsibility under the legislation to record the change of ownership but you certainly are very thoughtful for the buyer who possible would never bother. I have owners who sell a horse and will not tell the studbook who they sold them to.
 
digitalangel said:
Just wondering if everyone knew this or not.

Ive long believed that passports are not a proof of ownership and receipts are - however if you do not change the details with the PIO within 30 days you are liable for a 5k fine?

Interesting because in the defra guidelines it only says this:

If you buy a horse, pony or donkey, let the PIO know you’re the new owner within 30 days.

in the scottish ones, it says ' should'

it never says must or that if you dont youre liable for a 5k fine!




I am wondering how dealers get around this leglislation or even if they knew?

The legislation itself does not specifically say its illegal to sell a horse without your details in it so im wondering how on earth dealers do this - every horse ive bought from a dealer and some even from private sellers has not had up to date ownership details in it. its never much bothered me though as ive always thought proof is in the receipt.

Sale of horses

4.—(1) An owner who sells a horse must give its passport to the buyer at the time of the sale.

(2) The buyer must notify the transaction to the passport issuing organisation for registration of the new ownership within 30 days, and include—

(a)the buyer’s name and address, and
(b)the identification of the horse.
(3) In this regulation “sell” includes any transfer

Your not really.... I phoned whetherby's to ask about out this a few months ago when I hadn't change my new horses details to mine, and they said it doesn't get enforced and it's only a new ruling so it won't be for ages anyway. It would be impossible to police it, so I wouldnt worry about it
Click to expand...
 
travelmad said:
digitalangel said:
Just wondering if everyone knew this or not.

Ive long believed that passports are not a proof of ownership and receipts are - however if you do not change the details with the PIO within 30 days you are liable for a 5k fine?

Interesting because in the defra guidelines it only says this:

If you buy a horse, pony or donkey, let the PIO know you’re the new owner within 30 days.

in the scottish ones, it says ' should'

it never says must or that if you dont youre liable for a 5k fin





I am wondering how dealers get around this leglislation or even if they knew?

The legislation itself does not specifically say its illegal to sell a horse without your details in it so im wondering how on earth dealers do this - every horse ive bought from a dealer and some even from private sellers has not had up to date ownership details in it. its never much bothered me though as ive always thought proof is in the receipt.

Sale of horses

4.—(1) An owner who sells a horse must give its passport to the buyer at the time of the sale.

(2) The buyer must notify the transaction to the passport issuing organisation for registration of the new ownership within 30 days, and include—

(a)the buyer’s name and address, and
(b)the identification of the horse.
(3) In this regulation “sell” includes any transfer

Your not really.... I phoned whetherby's to ask about out this a few months ago when I hadn't change my new horses details to mine, and they said it doesn't get enforced and it's only a new ruling so it won't be for ages anyway. It would be impossible to police it, so I wouldnt worry about it
Click to expand...
I think if you look under penalties it does but as DEFRA do not enforce the legislation according to the Minister David Heath it is your local authority who does enforcement and they have a complaints procedure and thats who you complain to not DEFRA(in writing) just passing the buck.
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I have let the BHS know about my girls passport but as the 6 owners previous to me couldn't get the RDA to sign her over either the passport is still unstamped.....I have given up after loads of emails and phone calls.
 
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