Pasture bully

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bz88

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First of all and foremost I’m a firm believer that if horses are in herd they will eventually sort out pecking order but the question is how long is eventually?
Backstory- new pony came to our yard in end of August last year and he has been turned out in herd of 6 other geldings vary ages from 14 to 32. They all chilled gentleman’s who know their place within the herd. New pony is 5. At first as you would expect he tried to become a top dog unsuccessfully. From August new pony is picking on the elderly horse who is at the bottom and when he got put into his place by others he then proceeded to move on to pick on another quiet pony. He goes from one to another it’s not one pony that is his target but few quiet ones and one of them is mine. By that I mean it started from chewing and pulling rugs and walking them around by their rugs but within months his behaviour got progressively worse. He will chase, bite, pin to the fence, kick, rear and strike out. I have witnessed his behaviour towards my pony who is in his early 20’, he will chase until mine can’t catch the breath. The other day I brought him and he had heave lines on. He’s covered in bites, hooves marks, his rug is hanging off every single day. Yesterday whilst doing jobs I witnessed my pony being reared at and hit with hooves on head and neck, then chased around on frozen ground, run to the fence, repeatedly kicked which then I went to get him out of the field and he hasn’t been out with his herd until youngster is moved. Owner is aware and extremely upset which I understand. I tried cribbing spray to deter him from pulling and chewing rugs but he doesn’t seem to mind that. The other day he’s been seen herding another gelding, where he was this gelding had to be, I’ve been told he’s done that to my boy too. Yard owner says to give him more time to settle but I think since August he had enough time and his behaviour towards others gotten much worse so we all as owners objected. I know he’s a youngster and maybe he needs company of similar age ponies or someone as dominant as him or perhaps even individual paddock. Has anyone been in similar situation?
Many thanks

Edited to add
he doesn’t seem to be super aggressive or anything but he is very boisterous, pester, very dominant and seems to be able to take hell of the beating himself without batting an eye lid. I saw him getting double barelled by others telling him to leave them alone and he seemed to ignore that.
 
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Other horse sounds a bit riggy. I wouldn’t risk it. One of ours likes to rip rugs and having seen him run at my old boy and grab hold of his rug and not let him go recently, they won’t be going together again now. He is a 17 hands friesian and my boy used to be top dog in every herd situation through the years but he is 25 now and at only 15 hands it wasn’t fair so all do mine are now on individual turnout and very happy. They can still touch over the fence but can also get away and have their own space too.
 
4 months is more than enough time for him to settle. He sounds like he's never had another horse put him in his place, hence his behaviour. When I first had Pidge, he was picked on by the herd leader. Every day he would have a fresh cut or bite. When vet came to give him his second jab, he had a tour of Pidges body and on seeing all the cuts and bites, told me in no uncertain terms to move him before I lost him ( kick to the leg in wrong place). I got vet to repeat it loudly so YO could hear, and promptly moved him in with a friends 2 horses on the same yard, funnily enough he never had another cut or bite on him. I would move yours before something serious happens, and insist to your YO/YM that they resolve this before a serious injury happens. I would not be turning out with this 5 year old.
 
YO should be moving your horse or the problem horse imo. I also think you should make sure you have insurance while the situation is sorted if it's affordable.

My horse was a very aggressive fieldmate. She ended up being given a small sectioned off bit of field by herself because both her and other horses were coming in with marks on them. It was for her good and the good of the horses she was bullying.

I sympathise with you, it's not so easy to just up and move sometimes and you are at the mercy of your YO really. I would be talking to other field mates, owner of the new horse and see if enough of you can talk to the YO whether that might help guide their decision. YO might be limited by their facilities though and want to keep the business of the new horse's owners.
 
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Our horses are at home, we have always kept a herd of 4 or 5 together but when we found that a youngster was fighting with one of the older horses, we separated them and put 2 pairs together in different fields, for safety's sake, even though none had shoes. Your YO should be making alternative arrangements imho.
 
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I had one that was evil with older, weaker geldings including cornering them. He never took on the alpha mare and was very kind with two small, young Dartmoor hill ponies, even happily sharing his hay with them. He was well into his teens when I got him so it's not something he was going to grow out of, the only way to stop it was separating him from those he bullied, it wasn't fair on them.

I currently have an old polo pony mare who for the first 12 months I had her she shared with a very big old gelding. The previous mare I had with him was constantly being bitten by him but was never kicked. Polo mare was kicked and these kicks became progressively more regular and the last straw was a kick literally up the backside and her foof swelled right up. Bank holiday too so cost me £600 in vets fees. I separated them at that point but big boy would just jump in with her and she suffered two more kick injuries so I asked the other owner to move her horse out in a round about way. Basically, it got worse, not better and I had to protect my horse, she's a sweet old lady and doesn't deserve to be hurt all the time. She's quite happy on her own.
 
bz88 said:
First of all and foremost I’m a firm believer that if horses are in herd they will eventually sort out pecking order but the question is how long is eventually?
Backstory- new pony came to our yard in end of August last year and he has been turned out in herd of 6 other geldings vary ages from 14 to 32. They all chilled gentleman’s who know their place within the herd. New pony is 5. At first as you would expect he tried to become a top dog unsuccessfully. From August new pony is picking on the elderly horse who is at the bottom and when he got put into his place by others he then proceeded to move on to pick on another quiet pony. He goes from one to another it’s not one pony that is his target but few quiet ones and one of them is mine. By that I mean it started from chewing and pulling rugs and walking them around by their rugs but within months his behaviour got progressively worse. He will chase, bite, pin to the fence, kick, rear and strike out. I have witnessed his behaviour towards my pony who is in his early 20’, he will chase until mine can’t catch the breath. The other day I brought him and he had heave lines on. He’s covered in bites, hooves marks, his rug is hanging off every single day. Yesterday whilst doing jobs I witnessed my pony being reared at and hit with hooves on head and neck, then chased around on frozen ground, run to the fence, repeatedly kicked which then I went to get him out of the field and he hasn’t been out with his herd until youngster is moved. Owner is aware and extremely upset which I understand. I tried cribbing spray to deter him from pulling and chewing rugs but he doesn’t seem to mind that. The other day he’s been seen herding another gelding, where he was this gelding had to be, I’ve been told he’s done that to my boy too. Yard owner says to give him more time to settle but I think since August he had enough time and his behaviour towards others gotten much worse so we all as owners objected. I know he’s a youngster and maybe he needs company of similar age ponies or someone as dominant as him or perhaps even individual paddock. Has anyone been in similar situation?
Many thanks

Edited to add
he doesn’t seem to be super aggressive or anything but he is very boisterous, pester, very dominant and seems to be able to take hell of the beating himself without batting an eye lid. I saw him getting double barelled by others telling him to leave them alone and he seemed to ignore that.
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Nightmare! Is it a true gelding? That little beggar wants some serious and regular WORK.
But yours could get badly or fatally injured, never mind all the stress - can you electrify off a small section of paddock to keep him safe while the YO gets her act together?
 
Exasperated said:
Nightmare! Is it a true gelding? That little beggar wants some serious and regular WORK.
But yours could get badly or fatally injured, never mind all the stress - can you electrify off a small section of paddock to keep him safe while the YO gets her act together?
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I personally think pony displays riggy traces. We don’t have mares near our field and he seems fine as he’s stabled opposite one but him using mostly teeth and rearing a lot at others makes me think he might be cut late or is a rig. My boy stays in until it’s sorted or I will put the patch. I do think it’s rather unfair as if I move mine he will still be pestering others and my boy is settled in this herd and they all were getting along perfectly until youngster came in.
 
Was in this exact situation a few years ago, IME it doesn't get better. The YO really needs to separate and if they won't move the problem, even if it feels unfair move yours because it sounds like on this trajectory one of them will get seriously hurt. In the meantime, can you alternate turnout hours with the problematic horse, failing that ask for it to be muzzled so at least he can't bite?
 
bz88 said:
I personally think pony displays riggy traces. We don’t have mares near our field and he seems fine as he’s stabled opposite one but him using mostly teeth and rearing a lot at others makes me think he might be cut late or is a rig. My boy stays in until it’s sorted or I will put the patch. I do think it’s rather unfair as if I move mine he will still be pestering others and my boy is settled in this herd and they all were getting along perfectly until youngster came in.
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Very unfair! but your boy’s safety is your priority.
Chances are the other liveries will also start keeping theirs inside or organising separate spaces for them, then either the YO or pony’s owner will have to accept that juvenile terrorist is the one to segregate. Good luck
 
bz88 said:
First of all and foremost I’m a firm believer that if horses are in herd they will eventually sort out pecking order but the question is how long is eventually?
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In Nature, a horse will move to be with another herd if he or she doesn't get along with another horse. So I don't agree with your first statement. (But so far, that's all I've read of your post.)

ETA: I agree with the others. This situation will not improve on its own.
 
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Its not worth it. Been there. I have one in his twenties and a two year old. It’s absolutely not worth it, get your oldie out of there toot sweet. I’m convinced mine fell while being chased, he had a very particular mud mark along side his rug and was covered from hoof to belly in mud too. Yes, the youngster would play, but in my eyes (I sound nuts) he was learning a lot of bad behaviour from rogue horse. And he would come in missing chunks of hair. I had a very brusque chat with YO over the phone the night I expected oldie had fallen. I had to come up with the answer myself and said that there would be no way they would be turned out in that field ever again and what was the resolve. The resolve is I now have my own field on the yard which only allows other oldies or pleasant docile types in. I’ve not won a watch though, it’s the wettest field on the planet but alas, I don’t worry that I might find oldie in a ditch.
 
My mare ended up with a fractured pelvis and damage to her rectum, tail bone and also the vulva

This was due to a similar situation until one day they double barrelled here where there was nowhere Togo she was pinned to the corner fence. Multiple big kicks later before being chased away.

I would get your gelding out ASAP. I was 'Lucky' in that it was a stable fracture but she never came right after it and eventually was put down due to issues around her back and pelvic area as a result of the accident. They had been field mates for 10 years and there was always a bit of chasing off, angry face and dominant behaviour but never had any cuts, chasing etc etc it was an escalation In the wrong place
 
I can’t add much to the sage advice given above.

I find it really sad that these situations occur on yards and yard managers don’t do anything about it. As an ex yard manager the first priority should be horse safety and happiness. It’s just a given and so sad it doesn’t happen.
 
Agree with not turning out with the younger horse.

Also - would the owner consider a blood test to check testosterone level? Sounds like a bit more than just a youngster in a new environment.
 
Far too long I would have been pressing for it to be remedied by October. I agree with the others, this pony needs moved either to a different little herd where he might fit in or on his own.
I feel for the owner too as I was in this position with my friend when we decided to share a field. BB was a nightmare, it was mortifying. Which is why he was always individual after that. He just didnt like sharing.
 
I have one in my field that bullies the others and he's kept on his own, sectioned off with electric. I had oldies too and really wasn't prepared to have him make their lives miserable. If he belonged to me, I'd have tried to find somewhere more suitable, but his owner doesn't seem bothered. You are absolutely doing the right thing by protecting your horse. If the YO won't act, I think it's time all the liveries stuck together and refused to turn out with him.
 
MissMay said:
My mare ended up with a fractured pelvis and damage to her rectum, tail bone and also the vulva

This was due to a similar situation until one day they double barrelled here where there was nowhere Togo she was pinned to the corner fence. Multiple big kicks later before being chased away.

I would get your gelding out ASAP. I was 'Lucky' in that it was a stable fracture but she never came right after it and eventually was put down due to issues around her back and pelvic area as a result of the accident. They had been field mates for 10 years and there was always a bit of chasing off, angry face and dominant behaviour but never had any cuts, chasing etc etc it was an escalation In the wrong place
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Dreadful. We had the same with a mare at ours. She is still with us but sustained some real trauma around the same area and required stitches.
 
Update. Youngster is being separated in his electrified patch. Owner is a young girl but very level headed and agrees it is becoming nasty. At the same time she doesn’t want her pony being injured. Our Yo is the type of person who always says “sort it out amongst yourselves” so we did.
 
bz88 said:
Update. Youngster is being separated in his electrified patch. Owner is a young girl but very level headed and agrees it is becoming nasty. At the same time she doesn’t want her pony being injured. Our Yo is the type of person who always says “sort it out amongst yourselves” so we did.
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That sounds like a good and reasonable plan 😊
 
My 4yo is a bit of a rough and tumble yobbo. Not a rig, he has been blood tested. He’s just young and thuggish. My older geldings taught him to play far too rough when he was young and then he outgrew them in terms of stamina and strength and they started to regret their life choices. Young one now lives with a super kind but super alpha mare who takes no nonsense from him. I feel bad that he doesn’t have a gelding to play with (lost both older boys last year) but everyone is a lot safer now, no knocking each other over during rearing games. They spend 90% of the time eating from the same blade of grass and great buddies, the other bit she spends working on his manners!
 
bz88 said:
Update. Youngster is being separated in his electrified patch. Owner is a young girl but very level headed and agrees it is becoming nasty. At the same time she doesn’t want her pony being injured. Our Yo is the type of person who always says “sort it out amongst yourselves” so we did.
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Excellent, best outcome you could reasonably expect.
 
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