Pasture management and dock plants

[suestowford]

I've got a small field which I use in the spring & summer for my two ponies. The ponies are very good doers, and one of them has Cushings, so I use a lot of electric tape & divide it up for strip grazing. The pasture itself is a mix of poor grass, and weeds, which suits them very well. Obviously I root out anything poisonous that comes in like ragwort. But they like to eat some of the other things, so I leave those.
We do have a problem with docks. The whole field was covered in them at one time but for years now we have been digging them out. We tried using Grazon 90 on them but they came back stronger than ever after that! Digging out docks is hateful job, but we have got rid of most of them now. There is a patch of about a quarter of an acre that is still infested, but under the surface of this patch are many many rocks, and it's impossible to get the fork in the ground. We go around and cut these down (in the hope of preventing any seeds from setting) a couple of times a year.
Our soil is acidic, not very but it's not at neutral, and I have been told that liming would help to get rid of the docks. I've googled it and found loads of info on there for farmers, about how to use it to increase yield. But not much about ponies who need to watch their waistlines, and all the talk about increasing yield has me worrying that it might not be the right thing to do.
Does anyone else use lime on their pasture? Do you think it might make the grass grow too much for my ponies?

 

[Surbie]

If it's not too big an area can you tape off then handcut/pull the docks and spot-spray herbicide onto the leftover root immediately? It's an annoying job but one I've found to work.

 

[cauda equina]

If you mow or strim docks frequently they will give up eventually

 

[PurBee]

The herbicides generally need to be covering leaves to get ‘into’ the plant - thats the delivery system of most herbicides so unsure if applying to just roots after cutting them down will be as effective as treating the growing plant Leaves.

I’d only lime if my soil was below PH 6.4 - then youd only need a wee sprinkle...as 6.5 ph is preferred for grass to uptake an array of minerals in the soil. If ph is outside of 6.5, the grass ability to use all the minerals available in the soil becomes more limited the more out of 6.5 oh range the soil is.

I have areas of ph 6 and have thistles, no docks or other weeds...mainly thistles.

An area of ph5 exists in the literal bogland part of the land which i dont use for grazing-keep as wild wetland.

You’ll certainly help the dock grow by adjusting soil ph.

considering your rocky ground...how large are the stones? Is the soil very hard/dry too?

I’d consider asking a farming contractor/land maintenance guy in to cut very short with a flail mower, and perhaps very deep plough, till roll then re-seed the quarter acre.
There is the risk of old seeds re-germinating and youll get some docks re-emerge. But the re-seeding with mixed grass seeds if the growth/time of year in favour, can outgrow the weakened existing dock roots which hopefully have been chopped up, and grass will dominate blocking light to old weakened weed roots trying to re-emerge.

Many would keep applying herbicide...until the lot is eradicated. It can have the rebound effect as plants develop resistance eventually to everything we create to kill weeds/bugs...so the battle ensues.

A more organic approach would be to smother the area in either a thick layer of mulch and then heavy dutyweed suppressant fabric...leave on for 18 months to kill such dominant docks off and really weaken their root structure so it starts rotting - then a fine rotavate scratch of the surface to then re-seed for grass. Roll and wait for grass to emerge - outcompete weakened docks - some may remerge, but many will be knocked back.

Another consideration...those with pigs can tell you more - but i understand pigs love eating weeds and even dig roots and eat those. Would that destroy your docks and roots? Its possible. Id go that route if research show they devour roots too.

A tool thats great for axing out deep rooted huge weed roots is a mattock:




You can sharpen one end to be like an axe blade and swing hard and deep will destroy dee roots. I have 2 and they are brilliant. Ive got large rocks in some parts of my land but this is capable with the pick end to hoist them out the way.
Best to use when ground is softer after rain, if your land is on the drier side. I use these swiftly and easily on deep roots...able to haul out a foota depth of root with a few swings.

But if pigs will nosh those docks down - far easier and cheaper than all the other methods mentioned! Pig owners would gladly lend you a couple surely! ?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I cut the dock and nettles quite often it dies help and is by far easier than pulling

 

[ycbm]

I have chopped them down religiously for 3 years but they are still coming back in big numbers, so this year I spot sprayed with SBK while they were growing fast which removed lots of them and I'm now spot spraying on still days with glyphosate which is sorting out the rest.
.

 

[planete]

Cutting them down at the moment as it is quick and easy. I will see how effective or not it is. (Just read ycbm's post, perhaps I need a rethink...)

 

[Carrottom]

I don't use her herbicides, I keep the docks to a manageable level by hand pulling when the ground is soft and any that flower I cut at the base if I can't pull. I never get rid of them but it stops them spreading ???

 

[L&M]

If you mow or strim docks frequently they will give up eventually

That's what we found - we have an old sit on lawn mower that my partner has raised the mowing bed, so that it tops the weeds but not the grass.

Nothing more satisfying on mowing the buggers down! And year on year less do come back, but yet to get rid of them all......

 

[ycbm]

I've strimmed them or chopped them at the root with a back hoe for four years and it's made no noticeable difference.
.

 

[meleeka]

The herbicides generally need to be covering leaves to get ‘into’ the plant - thats the delivery system of most herbicides so unsure if applying to just roots after cutting them down will be as effective as treating the growing plant Leaves.

I’d only lime if my soil was below PH 6.4 - then youd only need a wee sprinkle...as 6.5 ph is preferred for grass to uptake an array of minerals in the soil. If ph is outside of 6.5, the grass ability to use all the minerals available in the soil becomes more limited the more out of 6.5 oh range the soil is.

I have areas of ph 6 and have thistles, no docks or other weeds...mainly thistles.

An area of ph5 exists in the literal bogland part of the land which i dont use for grazing-keep as wild wetland.

You’ll certainly help the dock grow by adjusting soil ph.

considering your rocky ground...how large are the stones? Is the soil very hard/dry too?

I’d consider asking a farming contractor/land maintenance guy in to cut very short with a flail mower, and perhaps very deep plough, till roll then re-seed the quarter acre.
There is the risk of old seeds re-germinating and youll get some docks re-emerge. But the re-seeding with mixed grass seeds if the growth/time of year in favour, can outgrow the weakened existing dock roots which hopefully have been chopped up, and grass will dominate blocking light to old weakened weed roots trying to re-emerge.

Many would keep applying herbicide...until the lot is eradicated. It can have the rebound effect as plants develop resistance eventually to everything we create to kill weeds/bugs...so the battle ensues.

A more organic approach would be to smother the area in either a thick layer of mulch and then heavy dutyweed suppressant fabric...leave on for 18 months to kill such dominant docks off and really weaken their root structure so it starts rotting - then a fine rotavate scratch of the surface to then re-seed for grass. Roll and wait for grass to emerge - outcompete weakened docks - some may remerge, but many will be knocked back.

Another consideration...those with pigs can tell you more - but i understand pigs love eating weeds and even dig roots and eat those. Would that destroy your docks and roots? Its possible. Id go that route if research show they devour roots too.

A tool thats great for axing out deep rooted huge weed roots is a mattock:

View attachment 73231


You can sharpen one end to be like an axe blade and swing hard and deep will destroy dee roots. I have 2 and they are brilliant. Ive got large rocks in some parts of my land but this is capable with the pick end to hoist them out the way.
Best to use when ground is softer after rain, if your land is on the drier side. I use these swiftly and easily on deep roots...able to haul out a foota depth of root with a few swings.

But if pigs will nosh those docks down - far easier and cheaper than all the other methods mentioned! Pig owners would gladly lend you a couple surely! ?

Sorry to disappoint, but my pigs aren’t fussed with docks. They will eat the plant if there’s little else, but they haven’t killed off the ones in their paddock in the last 5 years. I’d also worry about pigs and fencing. There’s a saying that wherever the pigs nose can go, the body follows and that’s true in my experience.

I use a ride on mower on my docks and i’ve got less than i used to have.

 

[J&S]

I have dug many out over the last two years but still have small areas. Seriously can't dig now so am resorting to cutting several times during the summer. I saw on a farming site that if you can cut up to five times in one year they give up......... not sure who will give up first though, them or me!

 

[Lois Lame]

I've got a small field which I use in the spring & summer for my two ponies. The ponies are very good doers, and one of them has Cushings, so I use a lot of electric tape & divide it up for strip grazing. The pasture itself is a mix of poor grass, and weeds, which suits them very well. Obviously I root out anything poisonous that comes in like ragwort. But they like to eat some of the other things, so I leave those.
We do have a problem with docks. The whole field was covered in them at one time but for years now we have been digging them out. We tried using Grazon 90 on them but they came back stronger than ever after that! Digging out docks is hateful job, but we have got rid of most of them now. There is a patch of about a quarter of an acre that is still infested, but under the surface of this patch are many many rocks, and it's impossible to get the fork in the ground. We go around and cut these down (in the hope of preventing any seeds from setting) a couple of times a year.
Our soil is acidic, not very but it's not at neutral, and I have been told that liming would help to get rid of the docks. I've googled it and found loads of info on there for farmers, about how to use it to increase yield. But not much about ponies who need to watch their waistlines, and all the talk about increasing yield has me worrying that it might not be the right thing to do.
Does anyone else use lime on their pasture? Do you think it might make the grass grow too much for my ponies?

How acidic is your soil? A slight acidity suits many many species. Certain elements are only available to many species in a slightly acidic soil.

Personally I don't think I would do anything. The dock is growing now (after all your hard work) only in the difficult spot where other things might not manage. They will help the area over time. Maybe they could be checked (as you are doing) to prevent seed spreading where you don't want it.

I loath poisonous chemicals so would never recommend them.

 

[Lois Lame]

Cutting them down at the moment as it is quick and easy. I will see how effective or not it is. (Just read ycbm's post, perhaps I need a rethink...)

Agh. But remember what you said, planete... 'cutting them down at the moment is quick and easy.' And fullfilling, I reckon.

 

[Lois Lame]

I've strimmed them or chopped them at the root with a back hoe for four years and it's made no noticeable difference.
.

That's because you had a blindfold on.

 

[maya2008]

I pulled a load yesterday, makes a difference but will have to do it again and again as the roots are so deep after multiple years of nothing but topping that exhausting them would take a long time! Got some root each time so it’s a start. Topping really doesn’t work, just sends them (and the buttercups) sideways not up.

 

[Goldenstar]

I top mine close to ground they are very tenacious and return every few years in certain spots to wind me up so every now and again we do spray them .

 

[ycbm]

These dock have been chopped off at the root by strimming or back hoe for several years. They have never been allowed to develop a mature seed head. I was dead keen to avoid chemicals if I could but enough is enough. They were glyphosated on Sunday because I'm sick of the work for no result. I might do a daily picture of the (*&^%#@€/ finally dying ?

 

[Micky]

ANother for glyphosate..we were covered in docks, I’ve been religiously spraying them with my hand held hairdressers water spray for the last 3 years, and now now i have barely any.. watch out if there are any in neighbouring fields, as they will just seed back over into your field..

 

[scruffyponies]

I can't spray because we're on water meadow. Topping definitely reduces the numbers, and weakens the plants although you'll always have some coming back, and have to do it every year. You never see docks in a mown lawn do you?

 

[suestowford]

All your responses are much appreciated. It sounds as if liming would be a waste of time and I will have to go on cutting. ycbm I know exactly what you mean, we've been cutting these for about 10 years and they will not die, it's a bit disheartening.
The reason it is so difficult to dig in this patch is because it was used as a rubbish tip by someone who lived here before. There's building rubble, huge slabs of concrete, bits of broken crockery, all sorts. I might get the fork in about an inch. But the dock roots wriggle through it all Maybe the spiky end of a mattock might do better.
The only place I will ever use a spray is if we have one coming up through concrete. So I won't be spraying them. When I get in close to cut the plants, I see many beetles, spiders, sometimes frogs even, and I don't want to harm them by spraying.
I might get a mattock though, it would be good exercise, that

 

[PurBee]

All your responses are much appreciated. It sounds as if liming would be a waste of time and I will have to go on cutting. ycbm I know exactly what you mean, we've been cutting these for about 10 years and they will not die, it's a bit disheartening.
The reason it is so difficult to dig in this patch is because it was used as a rubbish tip by someone who lived here before. There's building rubble, huge slabs of concrete, bits of broken crockery, all sorts. I might get the fork in about an inch. But the dock roots wriggle through it all Maybe the spiky end of a mattock might do better.
The only place I will ever use a spray is if we have one coming up through concrete. So I won't be spraying them. When I get in close to cut the plants, I see many beetles, spiders, sometimes frogs even, and I don't want to harm them by spraying.
I might get a mattock though, it would be good exercise, that

I didnt realise that dock section of your land was a rubble-filled site....very tricky to deal with.

The mattock is effective at getting deep down and prising-up the whole root. It’ll be slow going but would get the job done.

If you have the resources to get a load of old mouldy round bales of hay cheap/free, first strim down the docks to weaken the plants so that they dont use the food in the plant to go back into the root and stay dormant.

Unroll hay bales over the dock section creating a tight mat cover - then put some very thick plastic (damp proof membrane is good) or the heavy-duty weed suppressant fabric and cover the hay mat completely.
Plastic wont allow water to the plants underneath so will help kill them and dry the roots, and really dry out the soil - downside is ants would probably move in, but they do make nests in dry soil and till the soil fine. Im wondering if they would actually be helpful to break up the dried-out roots? Your frogs will move out due to it being dry. membrane will allow some rain through, and keep the soil moist.
Pin the covering material down or put tyres/rocks all over to hold down the fabric - leave for at least a year....probably best as long as you can. I’d go for 2yrs to be certain.
The membrane ensures no light gets to the docks.

The idea is to deny the big established dock roots of light for so long the roots give up and die.
1 year denial of light might not do it - dock roots are able to lie dormant...id look at 2 yrs.

If you can achieve this via organic mulch, then you dont need to faff about with membrane covers....and have access/funds/resources to be able to get hold of loads of old round bales/brown cardboard boxes/old bales of straw you can create a very thick layer-bed of mulch, keep it at 10 inches, keep adding to it, as itll slowly rot down, keep suppressing the light, with more layers of mulch material.
Then you’ll be building a new layer of soil, via your mulch layers rotting down, goodsoil to re-seed grass into after 2yrs.

The mulch only idea will keep your frogs attracted to the place, burying themselves under there getting grubs. Will attract worms....ive even got leeches that appear under mulch its so damp/cool under there!

Both mattock and mulch methods are long term options - unless you have a ‘mattock beer/bbq party’ and make a weekend camping there on a nice weekend with friends and mattock the whole lot up! ?

 

[hollyandivy123]

pigs..........know anyone with outdoor pigs if so set up pig fencing round the 1/4 docs and put the best weeders on, you should end up with a good turn section of land

and also ponies who will not give a flying fig about pigs

 

[Zuzan]

................ The reason it is so difficult to dig in this patch is because it was used as a rubbish tip by someone who lived here before. There's building rubble, huge slabs of concrete, bits of broken crockery, all sorts. I might get the fork in about an inch. But the dock roots wriggle through it all ............

I think the problem with just cutting them / their resistence to cutting is that as you describe it appears that there is little soil for shallower rooted plants to thrive and out compete the docks.. For cutting to work the docks need to be out competed by other plants.

I would use a mulching method.. as per @PurBee 's post above.. slightly amended ... cover with cardboard then spread compost / muck then a geotextile that IS permeable..

the thinking being the cardboard will block the light and eventually rot the mulch will add soil making it a better environment for other plants and the geotextile will allow rain through. When you take the geotextile away you should have good topsoil in which to seed ..

 

[L&M]

I have dug many out over the last two years but still have small areas. Seriously can't dig now so am resorting to cutting several times during the summer. I saw on a farming site that if you can cut up to five times in one year they give up......... not sure who will give up first though, them or me!

I did my 4th cut today!!!! That gives me hope......

 

[suestowford]

unless you have a ‘mattock beer/bbq party’ and make a weekend camping there on a nice weekend with friends and mattock the whole lot up! ?

This could be a new venture! Come and get rid of your stress with this mattock
I will try the mulching, it's quite a large area to be covering for years but certainly doable in the worst affected parts.

 

[tallyho!]

Hahahah!!! NOTHING killls these absolute bastards of plants.... harvest with some burrs and make drinks.

Glyphosate, digging, roots out... nothing will kill docks I tell you. If you have horses you will have docks... they eat grass and shit docks. Forevermore.

Just top and carry on.

 

[Frano]

Trimming topping and hand shears,. Just keeps them under control and halts spreading . Black fly is your friend they make mine shrivel up.

 

[spotty_pony]

I have chopped them down religiously for 3 years but they are still coming back in big numbers, so this year I spot sprayed with SBK while they were growing fast which removed lots of them and I'm now spot spraying on still days with glyphosate which is sorting out the rest.
.

can you do that with the horses still out or do they have to be off the field?

 

[Lois Lame]

I haven't read everything after my post yet but I got excited about Purbee's suggestion of hay bales. However, instead of using plastic with these, I'd suggest newspaper and/or cardboard.

Not sure how it would go with dock; you'd possibly have to squash them down a bit and tell them to behave. I once almost totally erradicated couch grass from my garden by using newspaper directly on top of the couch grass, and piles of autumn leaves on top, to both hide the unsightly newspaper and to keep it in place.

It's a slow process. BUT, while it's working, you can get on with life.

Couch grass cannot grow through the newspaper and/or cardboard layer. It forms a physical barrier (believe it or not). You have to use it at maybe half an inch thick, and wetting it makes it easier to control. It's very satisfying. Then you shove a billion leaves on which you've collected from anywhere you see them and, now that no light penetrates, the plants die.

It will not work without that physical barrier of the newspaper (and/or cardboard).

ETA: the amount of couch grass in my garden these days is ALMOST nil. I actually get excited when I see a piece, and gleefully pull it out or cut it off.

That reminds me, when you put down the newspaper, it must overlap. When I at times saw a little couch grass sneaking up, I would cut it off, not pull it, as that would have torn the newspaper.