Patrik Kittel receiving threats

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Sure, but unless your Swedish/Norwegian is very good they may not be of much help...

http://www.hastmagazinet.se/
http://www.ridehestennorge.no/Heste-nyheder/SeNyhed/?ID=6462
http://tidningenridsport.se/

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Thanks for the links
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Google Translate has its uses. For anyone who's interested.....

The first link is a reference to the second article. The second articles just says:

Patrik Kittel and his family have received threats via both mail and phone of people who want to harm both him and his horses.

It then goes on to apparently quote Kittel as saying:

No journalists talked with me about it this weekend, and Tuesday I was called up by an unknown man who begins by saying that "everything you say will be recorded on tape." It was uncomfortable and therefore I asked to receive questions via email.

I'm not sure if the above is in any way connected to the allegations of threats made, or a separate thing altogether.

The third link is almost identical to the second, with no extra information or details of threats made. As far as I can tell, Kittel himself isn't actually quoted as saying anything about threats to himself, his family or his horses.

If he is receiving threats then that's appalling. In both the second and third articles, Kittel still refuses to acknowledge he did anything wrong at all - he apparently believes the EPONA video was "manipulated and edited".
 
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Patrik Kittel's own words in Scandinavian papers/equestrian news websites. I suppose he could be lying but I don't see any reason to doubt him.

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I'd never heard of him before this 'incident' so I can't comment on the veracity of his claim. But his claim ref the 'blue tongue' was pretty unbelievable to anyone with the slightest knowledge of anatomy and physiology!

No-one in their right mind would threaten his horses - after all, this is all about the welfare of horses - even if they were crazy enough to threaten him or his family. But there are crazy people around!
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However, I can't help thinking this might be a useful method of diverting attention from his 'failings' - and of discrediting his critics!

I recall that in the thick of the anti-hunt campaign, IFAW wrote to Chief Constables in all the areas they were planning to take their campaign bus - asking for protection after alleged threats of violence from pro-hunt campaigners. Fortunately we had solid proof that the tactic was suggested to them by their PR consultants as a publicity ploy - and NOT as a result of any threats received!
 
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Where should I start?
1. Which was it - over or between the bits? If he'd freed the tongue it would have been obvious
2. Horse is foaming OK true, yes because it physically cannot swallow due to the compression of the gullet and jaw
3. It was longer than half a round ...it was several
4. Tissue hypoxia of that degree takes longer than a few seconds to develop - it is caused by a complete cut off of the blood supply to the area for a prolonged period
5. Getting the tongue over the bit would not be enough to cause this level of damage
6. It is a physical impossibility to put a horses tongue back under a bit from on top of it whilst still having the weymouth at well over a 45 degree angle creating pressure on it.
7. It would be a physical impossibility to get a tongue out from being pinched between 2 bits whilst still creating pressure from the weymouth, curb chain and an overtightened crank noseband and whilst sitting on the horse
8. Neither the bridle nor the bits were adjusted at any point, the tongue was just hidden back in the clamped mouth.
9. The horse was not given any let up from the hyperflexion that caused the issue despite the fact that it was in obvious pain and had suffered noticeable injury

So he lied about the duration, the cause and fixing the issue all in one go to make himself look whiter than white - Hence my reluctance to believe allegations of threats to get the public on his side against the nasty wasty people being howwid to poor Patrick who wuvs his horsey

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Start with the uncut 10 minute version of the clip shown in real time:

1. The tongue first appears to pop out at 1.17, by 1.38 he has stopped and done something about it. That is 21 seconds of the tongue hanging out - hardly the welfare issue of the century.
2. Tissue hypoxia can occur quite rapidly, try tying a rubber band around your last knuckle, mine went blue in 1 minute 20 seconds. The tongue is much more richly supplied by blood vessels than the fingertip suggesting that it needs more blood and therefore may become hypoxic faster.
3. It is not clear that the tongue was indeed blue. Do you know this horse? Have you examined its tongue under normal conditions? I have 4 horses and their tongues are all different colours, including a grey who appears to have quite a white tongue under normal conditions.
4. My horse has managed to get his tongue over and then under the bit in a double all by himself - if he could do it why couldn't a rider help him do it?
5. Tongue over bit is quite a common problem, why do you think the rollkur caused it as such?
 
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Off topic I know but have never seen so much leg protection on a horse before either, compared to all the others.

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Ironic isn't it... strap the horse's head into its chest so it can't see, can't breathe properly, ends up with a sore neck, sore back, sore abs... but make sure his legs are well protected at the same time
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I find it staggering that this post has been viewed nearly 700 times, whereas my post further up where I provide a link to a petition to stop rollkur only has a fraction of that...

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Agree...I had already signed a different one put up by maryclay...I think that's the name.
I hope they have thousands of signatures already, otherwise it won't look as though enough people are bothered.
 
sorry tictac it was completely off topic, its a harry potter reference, ridikulus (as said by an earlier poster)is the spell to get rid of one
 
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1. The tongue first appears to pop out at 1.17, by 1.38 he has stopped and done something about it. That is 21 seconds of the tongue hanging out - hardly the welfare issue of the century.

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21 seconds of tongue hanging out is NOT the issue - the blue, limp, lifeless state of the tongue is!

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2. Tissue hypoxia can occur quite rapidly, try tying a rubber band around your last knuckle, mine went blue in 1 minute 20 seconds. The tongue is much more richly supplied by blood vessels than the fingertip suggesting that it needs more blood and therefore may become hypoxic faster.

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Tried that. The skin under the band went white in 30 seconds; the tip of the finger took 2 minutes to become red and swollen; the pain forced me to rip the band off at 3 minutes - the finger was STILL not blue and lifeless. And the tip of the finger is a very small area with less blood supply than the tongue (particularly when you suffer from Reynaud's - which I do!) The horse's tongue is MUCH larger and more blood would be trapped in the tongue - meaning it would take MORE time for hypoxia to occur!

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3. It is not clear that the tongue was indeed blue. Do you know this horse? Have you examined its tongue under normal conditions? I have 4 horses and their tongues are all different colours, including a grey who appears to have quite a white tongue under normal conditions.

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I have 58 horses - and none of them has blue OR white tongues! I'd be calling the vet if I found one!

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4. My horse has managed to get his tongue over and then under the bit in a double all by himself - if he could do it why couldn't a rider help him do it?

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IF a horse's tongue is normal and healthy it's strong and incredibly mobile. If its tongue is limp and lifeless due to tissue hypoxia, or if the horse is under anaesthetic, it is flaccid and the horse can't control it enough to keep it in its mouth, let alone navigate bits with it!

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5. Tongue over bit is quite a common problem, why do you think the rollkur caused it as such?

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Not sure anyone suggested that Rollkur caused the tongue over bit - if it WAS over the bit which I don't believe. The ONLY way I can see that tongue getting into that state would be sustained and severe downward pressure from a curb bit (unless he'd tied the tongue down and tied it too tight!)
 
I am beginning to get confused over what this rider is supposed to have done wrong. Is the whole issue that the horse got its tongue over or between the bits, somehow caused the tongue to go blue and he pushed it back in without dismounting and checking further?
 
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I am beginning to get confused over what this rider is supposed to have done wrong. Is the whole issue that the horse got its tongue over or between the bits, somehow caused the tongue to go blue and he pushed it back in without dismounting and checking further?

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Have you watched the video? The ISSUE is that he worked the horse in SEVERE Rollkur for a sustained period of time. As part of that, the horse's tongue went blue and limp - almost certainly as a result of sustained and severe curb pressure, causing tissue hypoxia (which is VERY painful!)

If you think that's 'right' .......
 
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Where should I start?
1. Which was it - over or between the bits? If he'd freed the tongue it would have been obvious
2. Horse is foaming OK true, yes because it physically cannot swallow due to the compression of the gullet and jaw
3. It was longer than half a round ...it was several
4. Tissue hypoxia of that degree takes longer than a few seconds to develop - it is caused by a complete cut off of the blood supply to the area for a prolonged period
5. Getting the tongue over the bit would not be enough to cause this level of damage
6. It is a physical impossibility to put a horses tongue back under a bit from on top of it whilst still having the weymouth at well over a 45 degree angle creating pressure on it.
7. It would be a physical impossibility to get a tongue out from being pinched between 2 bits whilst still creating pressure from the weymouth, curb chain and an overtightened crank noseband and whilst sitting on the horse
8. Neither the bridle nor the bits were adjusted at any point, the tongue was just hidden back in the clamped mouth.
9. The horse was not given any let up from the hyperflexion that caused the issue despite the fact that it was in obvious pain and had suffered noticeable injury

So he lied about the duration, the cause and fixing the issue all in one go to make himself look whiter than white - Hence my reluctance to believe allegations of threats to get the public on his side against the nasty wasty people being howwid to poor Patrick who wuvs his horsey

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Start with the uncut 10 minute version of the clip shown in real time:

1. The tongue first appears to pop out at 1.17, by 1.38 he has stopped and done something about it. That is 21 seconds of the tongue hanging out - hardly the welfare issue of the century.
2. Tissue hypoxia can occur quite rapidly, try tying a rubber band around your last knuckle, mine went blue in 1 minute 20 seconds. The tongue is much more richly supplied by blood vessels than the fingertip suggesting that it needs more blood and therefore may become hypoxic faster.
3. It is not clear that the tongue was indeed blue. Do you know this horse? Have you examined its tongue under normal conditions? I have 4 horses and their tongues are all different colours, including a grey who appears to have quite a white tongue under normal conditions.
4. My horse has managed to get his tongue over and then under the bit in a double all by himself - if he could do it why couldn't a rider help him do it?
5. Tongue over bit is quite a common problem, why do you think the rollkur caused it as such?

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Booboos I thought on the other thread that YOU started re:rollkur and whether it was bad, abusive or not, you said that you were withdrawing from the debate because all you seemed to do was come back constantly with counter arguments pro-rollkur, even when offered masses and masses of information to go and look at showing how barbaric this practice is.
Now you are starting to argue with posters on this thread.
Can I suggest that if you agree with rollkur you say so out loud instead of hiding behind futile arguments.
 
Booboos is NOT saying she is supporting rollkur - she is arguing whether the tongue issue is at all related to rollkur and if it was a real issue to be worried about (I completely agree with her - don't like rollkur but I am not convinced there was really anything worse than the horse popping its tongue out)

I think this needs to be an informed debate with arguments and counter arguments in order for us to form an educated opinion - otherwise we come across no better that hunt-saboteurs.
 
this came up the other day, my thoughts were that the tongue became blue due to overuse of the curb hence increasing the pressure from both the bit and the chain and trapping the tongue between. tongue then got stuck outside of mouth as horse unable to move it.

This is why it was relatively simple for him to replace the tongue- ie left off the pressue and popped back in.

I suggested on the other thread that theoretically I assumed it would be possible to apply excessive pressure to the curb whilst riding in other methods not just rollkur.
 
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Booboos is NOT saying she is supporting rollkur - she is arguing whether the tongue issue is at all related to rollkur and if it was a real issue to be worried about (I completely agree with her - don't like rollkur but I am not convinced there was really anything worse than the horse popping its tongue out)


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are you serious? have you seen a horse sticking its tongue out before? i have, plenty of times, e.g. showjumpers, eventers occasionally, dr horses, racehorses, and every other time i have seen it, the tongue has been fat and pink, often rolling up at the sides and waggling about, not flat, blue/grey and looking as if it has been flattened and is lifeless. i don't really care whether it happened because the horse was in rollkur, or because he'd got his tongue between the bits, it should not have been allowed to happen, and the rider leaning over to poke the tongue in didn't cure the problem at all, only hid it. he should have jumped off to check it. if the tongue was between the bits, the bridle would have needed removing to correct the problem.
i hope this is the final straw for abuse of dr horses, i really do. global condemnation and a change in attitudes is well overdue.
 
He really should have got off, there is no justification for him staying on considering it was simply a training session, so all the time in the world (relatively speaking!)

As for the threats, if the only 'evidence' is that one sentence mentioned by PK in passing, I do think it's a bit vague. As for the recorded phone call, if it was a journalist interviewing him over the phone it would be simply logical (and fair) to tell him that the call was being recorded...
 
a point to consider is the tongue was almost certainly trapped INSIDE the horses mouth for a long while before it eventually flopped out.
so watching the video and seeing how long it flapped about doesnt say how long the tongue was pinched and trapped for.
certainly lots of riders appear to have curbs in full use alot of the time theses days..............
 
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Booboos I thought on the other thread that YOU started re:rollkur and whether it was bad, abusive or not, you said that you were withdrawing from the debate because all you seemed to do was come back constantly with counter arguments pro-rollkur, even when offered masses and masses of information to go and look at showing how barbaric this practice is.
Now you are starting to argue with posters on this thread.
Can I suggest that if you agree with rollkur you say so out loud instead of hiding behind futile arguments.

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You thought wrong. As it was my thread, I thought it would be worth summarizing my thoughts on what people had taken the time to post.

What do I think on Rollkur? Still not sure, but the more I see people shouting instead of providing evidence the more concerned I am about the fairness of villifying a random individual for it.

If I was in favour of Rollkur I would have absolutely no problem in saying so. The FEI has deliberated on this and decided it is an acceptable training method withing parametres, so if I did want to practice it, I would be free to do so.

Unbelievable, I almost want to go practice Rollkur now!
 
OK, thanks to those who posted re the tongue, I understand this better now. So the issue is not Rollkur as such, but that the rider caused the tongue to become blue, was aware of it and did nothing to prevent it or treat it after it happened.
 
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