Paul Graham of BE's comment in H&H today about lower-level not being dangerous...

As a rubbish novice, :D, I think people really DO underestimate the difficulty of BE fences. I took Zoomy to a unaffiliated 2'3 ODE last year. We were eliminated in the dressage (jumping out of the arena several times), eliminated in the show jumping (too many riders galloping past xc!) and jumped clear xc. Basically, massive stage fright coupled with an ex-polo pony and **** rider!

Mike has seen me and Zoomy out and about at sponsored rides etc and I'm hoping he will agree that we are both capable of jumping 3foot xc fences. HOWVER, jumping the odd fence on good ground when you and the horse have had a good look at it is very different from jumping a course of technical fences in quick succession under pressure.

I also think there is a real problem with people's egos getting in the way of listening to their horses. I have seen so many people whose horses refuse a 2'6 fence......so they try and beat it over a 3' fence???? I would love to have a go at BE, but I am just not good enough, simples.
 
FigJam, your post has got me thinking (and i applaud you for doing your homework, btw... amazing that i'm impressed that you had so much xc tuition, when i wouldn't think anything of someone saying they had weekly dressage lessons or sj lessons... hmmm. maybe that's just me).
when i did my first BE (Novice at Brigstock in 1988) i had already done literally years of:
hunting (in trappy country, jumping all sorts of stuff), hunter trials (novice, building up to Opens, some of which were seriously meaty actually, some of which were trappy, some of which were vile, but there was a huge variation and i built up a good partnership with my lovely generous mare, we learnt together), local sj, RC sj, then BSJA (Newcomers and Foxhunters.) Also, the livery yard where i kept her had a good xc course and i'd finish every schooling session with a good fun romp round the xc as a reward for both of us (most of which were 3'6", because that was the height of the telegraph pole fencing they were all built into), there were corners, banks, all sorts.
we had jumped literally thousands of fences together.
we had done 1 dressage test...
maybe i was atypical, maybe not.
 
See I was never lucky enough to have a horse as a kid/teenager and so never had the PC opportunities that a lot of folk brought up in horsey families did. I had weekly riding school lessons when younger but then a large break as a teenager and picked them up again when I went away to uni. I then had a share horse for a couple of years (mostly spent hacking) and then got Hopalong 4 years ago. We spent the first year hacking and then the next two in/out of injury! Last year was the first opportunity I'd ever had to ride competitively.

I guess without the fantastic horsey background you (and plenty others have), I have to be more realistic about my skills and abilities and so I am happy to continue having lessons, stay at the level I am happy with until I really feel that we're making it feel easy and there's no challenge in it. Then, I'll think about moving up, train for that and do the same all over again. I am under no illusion that Hopalong and I will go any further than PN! She is 18 and so my aim for her is to keep enjoying what we're doing and giving me the mileage to learn at this level.

Maybe in the future I can become comfortable and consistent at PN and then consider Novice, who knows?

I do think that we do not have the opportunities/facitilies as freely available to everyone nowadays though which is a real shame. :( And (as I've harped on about on here plenty! ;) ) up where I am there is not the opportunity to run unaff over courses which are comparable to BE but at a lower height. You can either jump rickety, inconsistent 2'6"/3ft courses unaff or pay your money and know what you're getting at BE80/90!
 
Another point to consider on the subject of not being "dangerous" is it depends not just on the greenness but on the talent of the horse you are on? The lower classes BE are encouraging the non-typical event type horses to have a go. Whilst I'm all for that, you need to respect the limits of the horse you are sat on. If I took my hunting cob round a PN he would proably be within 3-6" of his absolute limit if the fence had a maximum spread.

My point is that do people realise that it would take as much skill in terms of placing, balance, striding etc, to get him round a PN as to get a more scopey horse round an novice -therefore the chances of us being "dangerous" must be proportionately higher?
 
Maybe the problems are caused by too many moneyed novices, who don't have the experience/skill to not make mistakes - but have the 'right' equipment in the form of saddles that hold you in etc, which actually hinder them. The advantage of said tack being that it makes you look 'the part'. :rolleyes:

I do have an Albion K2, which I admit, has stopped my going through the front/side door when my horse has stopped unexpectedly, but it doesn't prevent me falling off all the time - than I can testify to! :rolleyes:

I don't think I had any formal instruction before I went xc the first time - I was on my ancient 12h pony who I (ashamedley!) pony club kicked round the entire course! :o

Nor had I been hunting. I think I just gained alot of experience out hacking, jumping stuff you come across. Having said that, I have never been one to go hell for leather (too much of a control freak :rolleyes: ) and if anything err on the side of caution speed wise. Luckily my horse is incredibly tidy in front too, no dangly legs etc.

I think things can be changed, maybe going back to more the way things used to be - maybe less dressage divas eventing then. I do think since its become easier (and expensive!) there's lots of people who previosuly wouldn't have dared. And the thing about unaff ODEs is that many of them are inconsistent, so you might have 1-2 questions, but the rest are piddly.

That said, accidents, by their nature will always happen, and you need to personally try and prevent them, not blame the BE, organisers, fence judges etc for something that most likely was your fault (unless a fence/striding is obviosuly wrong etc). And if the ground is dry/wet - change your riding accordingly, its xc ffs - not a course round a menage....
 
How much of this is down to rider mentality? Personally even after limited xc outing I would happily pop round a BE90 even a 100 however the thought of the equivilant show jumps makes me terribly nervous!! As a result as soon as we have a dry jumping field, trainer avaliability permitting, I will be having weekly jumping lessons, in an effort to sort this out. Until we are comfortably jumping 1m at least at home and out sj'ing I will not be affiliating, we will be doing clinics and hunter trials.
So would this "mentality" make me at risk of having a serious fall/accident?
 
kerilli said:
i completely agree with Scally, bravo!

i was told of a rider who had 6 runs at PN, all E in sj or xc, so entered an N. E'd in the sj.
this makes me boggle. WHAT kind of person thinks, in all seriousness, "we can't get round a PN, so let's go for bigger, more technical fences?!?!?!" Yeah, that was going to work. Surely this person had an OH, or parent, or sibling, or trainer, or friend, with an atom of common sense? Maybe not, because it looks as if the horse was the brightest one of the lot!
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Actually, that is not an uncommon occurence, in BE and especially in SJing. Makes me laugh the number of times I've heard people say "oh he doesn't respect the fences when they're small - so we're going up a level"

What? If your horse can't actually clear the smaller fences - whether he's pratting about, or what, he ain't ready for anything larger!

There also seems to be a plethora of riders who think (at BE) that they and their horse SHOULD be doing a certain class by a certain age... or get round one class once and think they're ready to move on.

I used to think they were brave. Now I think they're stupid
 
I started eventing 2003/2004 at the low levels of Pony club. In two years i had done basically every ODE and Hunter trial within a 2 hour radius. i affiliated because i wanted the challenge of new and tougher XC, i went straight in at novice but because i was well prepared (done PC opens round novice BE tracks) both horses sailed round not far off the time and in their 2nd novices both horses made the time.

When i was doing the Pony club opens there were normally about 10 other riders in the PC section, looking at entries for a couple of PC ODE that i'm going to now there are 3/5 people in the Open! So to me it does look like people are skipping the Pony club events to go BE. But I think it made be a better rider and my horses more nimble when i was going round the PC courses with crazy striding and the random jumps set in ridiculous places, it taught me and my horses to think that bit quicker.

Sorry if none of that makes sense
 
madhossy said:
Actually, that is not an uncommon occurence, in BE and especially in SJing. Makes me laugh the number of times I've heard people say "oh he doesn't respect the fences when they're small - so we're going up a level"

What? If your horse can't actually clear the smaller fences - whether he's pratting about, or what, he ain't ready for anything larger!

There also seems to be a plethora of riders who think (at BE) that they and their horse SHOULD be doing a certain class by a certain age... or get round one class once and think they're ready to move on.

I used to think they were brave. Now I think they're stupid
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Sorry but this is actually true in showjumping! Whether its the rider unconsciously not respecting the fences which passes itself on, but some Sjers will seriously take the piddle over a small course.

Eventing is a different matter though, sj poles fall - xc they don't :o
 
FigJam said:
See I was never lucky enough to have a horse as a kid/teenager and so never had the PC opportunities that a lot of folk brought up in horsey families did. I had weekly riding school lessons when younger but then a large break as a teenager and picked them up again when I went away to uni. I then had a share horse for a couple of years (mostly spent hacking) and then got Hopalong 4 years ago. We spent the first year hacking and then the next two in/out of injury! Last year was the first opportunity I'd ever had to ride competitively.

I guess without the fantastic horsey background you (and plenty others have), I have to be more realistic about my skills and abilities and so I am happy to continue having lessons, stay at the level I am happy with until I really feel that we're making it feel easy and there's no challenge in it. Then, I'll think about moving up, train for that and do the same all over again. I am under no illusion that Hopalong and I will go any further than PN! She is 18 and so my aim for her is to keep enjoying what we're doing and giving me the mileage to learn at this level.

Maybe in the future I can become comfortable and consistent at PN and then consider Novice, who knows?

I do think that we do not have the opportunities/facitilies as freely available to everyone nowadays though which is a real shame. :( And (as I've harped on about on here plenty! ;) ) up where I am there is not the opportunity to run unaff over courses which are comparable to BE but at a lower height. You can either jump rickety, inconsistent 2'6"/3ft courses unaff or pay your money and know what you're getting at BE80/90!
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*Disclaimer - FJ I know I have quoted your post but I am not aiming this at you personally, I've only quoted it to show that people with a similar background need different prep to achieve the same thing, please don't be offended!!

I had a remarkably similar background to you in terms of non-horsey family, RS lessons as a child, break of 7 years from riding when I went to uni etc etc

I bought my eventer as a green rising 6, did one 2ft9 hunter trial and a handful of unaff SJ tracks on him - admittedly the HT was round the BE course I was planning to do - and then did an intro. We did 3 intros then went PN, and by the end of our second season were at N. To this day I've had three XC lessons on him. I've not hunted him either, and my hunting experience is fairly limited, though I did do a bit as a kid.

Across all the levels my horse and I have XC faulted 6 times in 4 years and 27 runs XC together, one of those was me jumping the wrong fence and another was low sun dazzling us so neither of us could see the fence. The others were proper horse/rider errors, only one of which involved us hitting a fence and me falling off. I do not believe that blind luck let us achieve that kind of consistency.

So am I less safe than someone who has done heaps and heaps of homework and millions of HT first? Caroline Moore certainly didn't think so - in fact 3 different 4* trainers over the space of a couple of years told me I was too cautious and needed to move up more quickly! CM actually told me to stop messing about in 2008 and go 1* at either Chepstow or Hartpury because we were ready and did not need to wait for Aldon, and that was at one of the BE CDT days.

I think it is impossible to generalise about what is needed to be safe enough to ride at a certain level BE - it's like saying that everyone needs to revise for X amount of hours to know enough to pass an exam, or be X years old to start their own business. There has to be a degree of personal responsibility, and to say that everyone who goes off and does BE without spending 3 years (or whatever) doing x/y/z first is not preparing properly is simply ludicrous!
 
similar to figjam, I was a riding schooler with not a lot that would jump over 2'6 for my formative teenage years and certainly never hunted, I have only really recently started on my first pony at 26 ;)

I know that I, atm cannot ride an xc course properly. Its fair to say I think I probably try and show jump it a bit, as thats where most of my jumping has been so its the feel I am used to.

I can go schooling and mostly be ok (few rider wobbles about things) but riding a whole course, with the associated nerves, cars for pony old enough to know better to spook at etc etc I do find it difficult. Not helped by said pony being a nappy sod at times. I am really hoping we crack it a bit this year, I have hunted a couple of times and pony has been taken round by someone else (much much better than me!) while I was sidelined. I will try to be as prepared as possible but it could all go tits up again and I will be among the awful riders ;) that will be 80cm unaff though :) If all the practice and help in the world doesnt really help on the day I will give up trying :) We have only done pairs HT for the last couple of years because of pones reluctance to start and speediness on the way home but I decided I was riding a little better than I was and know him better to give it another try.
 
SpottedCat said:
I think it is impossible to generalise about what is needed to be safe enough to ride at a certain level BE - it's like saying that everyone needs to revise for X amount of hours to know enough to pass an exam, or be X years old to start their own business. There has to be a degree of personal responsibility, and to say that everyone who goes off and does BE without spending 3 years (or whatever) doing x/y/z first is not preparing properly is simply ludicrous!
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I think this is a really good point. You are no doubt a better rider than me on a younger horse with more ability, so it is absolutely right that you are miles ahead of us on the ladder, no offence taken. :) It is all down to individual rider and horse skill and ability really, which is why it would be so hard to lay down rules of what you "should" have done before doing something else.

I also agree that it is personal responsibility what you choose to do, although the problem here is some people's apparent lack of awareness/common sense. Unfortunately there's not really anyway of training that into folk! :rolleyes: If there was, we'd probably not be having this discussion! ;)
 
madhossy said:
Actually, that is not an uncommon occurence, in BE and especially in SJing. Makes me laugh the number of times I've heard people say "oh he doesn't respect the fences when they're small - so we're going up a level"

What? If your horse can't actually clear the smaller fences - whether he's pratting about, or what, he ain't ready for anything larger!

There also seems to be a plethora of riders who think (at BE) that they and their horse SHOULD be doing a certain class by a certain age... or get round one class once and think they're ready to move on.

I used to think they were brave. Now I think they're stupid
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I know what you mean in your first point, but there is a HUMUNGOUS difference between a horse which isn't respecting the fences and is therefore tapping them out, not backing off, etc, and one which is getting ELIMINATED at a level.
Over-bold horses which need fences to be bigger do not get eliminated, they just tap a few down...
my best ever mare, after doing bigger stuff, got totally blasé and actually quite a handful around an Intermediate track. (Her last few Novice runs before moving up were also a bit wild, she lost all respect for the fences and i had to really anchor her because she wasn't backing off at all.) She could never have been downgraded, used as a schoolmistress etc etc, because she wasn't exactly safe/sensible over smaller fences having had a taste of the bigger stuff. She'd never have stopped and gotten eliminated though. It is a totally different problem with different symptoms.
Ditto with showjumpers, I can easily believe that there are horses which are blasé over a smaller course and only really start operating when the fences get bigger.

I agree with you about the "should be doing such-and-such a level at a certain age" thing - imho that is a stupid and dangerous idea.
 
Eventing is a dangerous sport, full stop, It improves the odds if you are sat on a good horse and improves even further if you are a good rider, however every single round on every single horse in every single event has an element of danger, to sugest otherwise is a gross error.

I know of a top proffesional who had a fall at twesledown, on a class horse that had never had x country fault the fence was not difficult and the jockey did not make a error, but had a horrific fall all the same.

If you want to event you should as with all aspects of life weigh up the risk, however it is such a good fun sport most people think that the risks are worth taking.
 
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