Pea protein for horses

[quizzie]

This thread is a follow-on from a discussion in AAD about diet related dilated cardiomyopathy ( a form of heart failure) in dogs fed a diet high in peas/pulses/potato...which is to some extent reversible by changing the diet. The exact mechanism is not known yet, but a lot of data is emerging about the link to diet.

In the equine field, there has been a lot of discussion in the last few years about protein levels/amino acid requirements in horse, and subsequent promotion of pea and potato protein as sources of amino acids. It used to be whey protein, but that is much more expensive now.

These used to form only a small part of the equine diet, in largely unprocessed form. As people are looking to reduce the sugars in the diet, many more may give a protein supplement.

I am somewhat concerned that we may, completely unintentionally, be creating an issue?

Has anyone heard of any research on the subject?

 

[Fieldlife]

I think most that do supplement protein only add a small amount. The balancer I feed supplements the three main essential acids that can be in short supply.

Cost wise most people are unlikely to feed high amounts of pea protein / potato protein.

The cheapest way of supplementing essential amino acids (building blocks of protein) is either feeding a base feed with a reasonable protein base or feeding micronised linseed.

 

[maya2008]

Feeding dogs a diet high in pea/pulse/potato is feeding a carnivore an omnivore’s diet, verging on herbivore’s depending on how much animal protein you actually give. They tried giving cows protein supplements made from other animals - so giving a herbivore carnivore protein - and we got mad cow disease. When will we, as humans, learn to only feed animals with the food they have adapted to? The dog issue is caused by nutrient deficiencies (taurine being mentioned in most articles). Feed an animal a diet it is designed for, end of problem.

Horses are herbivores, peas are a plant, and they merrily eat 2% of their body weight in forage on top of that.

 

[quizzie]

Feeding dogs a diet high in pea/pulse/potato is feeding a carnivore an omnivore’s diet, verging on herbivore’s depending on how much animal protein you actually give. They tried giving cows protein supplements made from other animals - so giving a herbivore carnivore protein - and we got mad cow disease. When will we, as humans, learn to only feed animals with the food they have adapted to? The dog issue is caused by nutrient deficiencies (taurine being mentioned in most articles). Feed an animal a diet it is designed for, end of problem.

Horses are herbivores, peas are a plant, and they merrily eat 2% of their body weight in forage on top of that.

Take another look at the DCM article.....yes taurine deficiency is implicated in heart disease in dogs and cats.....but there is a much more specific emerging disease where the cardiac muscle appears to be being damaged by feeding pea protein....there is no precise mechanism proved yet, but the link has been proven many times.

It is not yet known if it is dose dependent or species specific.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

Are other legumes also likely to be a problem in this way? This would include alfalfa.

 

[quizzie]

Are other legumes also likely to be a problem in this way? This would include alfalfa.

Probably not.... apparently soy has no effect...and potato is a tuber, so ?

It could have something to do with the processing for all anyone knows at present...it is a work in progress. I just wondered if anyone knew of any research work in other species?

 

[PurBee]

Studies can often throw up more questions than they answer. I’d be questioning in these dogs that had cardio myop., what were the state of their livers? Were they dissected and studied?
What were the weight/body scores of the dogs that died of cardio myop?
What other defining similar health features were there between the studied dogs aside from cardio myop?

In humans, we now know that fatty liver disease isnt just caused by alcohol, its also caused by excess carbs. Called ‘non-alcoholic fatty liver disease’. NAFLD.
Excess calories causes the body to store it as fat under the skin and throughout organs, as the liver can convert proteins to ‘fat’ storage, aswell as excess carbs to ‘fat’ storage, aswell as excess fat from the diet to fat storage.

Alcoholic fatty liver disease is exactly that - the liver has converted the super-refined-sugar-alcohol into fat and its lodged in the liver. Because alcohol is also a poison to the liver its inhibiting its ability to do all its jobs well.

If the liver is longterm compromised, the heart generally eventually gets compromised too.
In liver disease the liver enlarges, the tissue becomes stiffer, and doesnt flow blood through it as easily as a healthy liver. In cardio myop conditions they describe similar states for the heart - it gets bigger, stiffer, and blood struggles to flow.
We known in this type of liver disease is usually caused by excess nutrition.
(But skinny/lightweight people can have NAFLD, and this again raises more questions than answers - and can have various causes)

Whole peas are used in dog/cat food , but pea protein powders are processed to eliminate the carbs from peas, leaving behind just the protein. Those are mainly fed to horses for increased muscle mass, than just ground-up pea powder, which would also have a high carb ratio.

Giving 80+% pulses/carbs/legumes to carnivores swerves their diet to being vastly more high carb, than theyre really designed for.

Its not surprising that animals fed majority foods in domestic-care, theyd never in a million years eat if they were roaming wild, are getting health issues we see in humans that also consume excessive super-processed foods.

 

[quizzie]

Studies can often throw up more questions than they answer. I’d be questioning in these dogs that had cardio myop., what were the state of their livers? Were they dissected and studied?
What were the weight/body scores of the dogs that died of cardio myop?
What other defining similar health features were there between the studied dogs aside from cardio myop?

In humans, we now know that fatty liver disease isnt just caused by alcohol, its also caused by excess carbs. Called ‘non-alcoholic fatty liver disease’. NAFLD.
Excess calories causes the body to store it as fat under the skin and throughout organs, as the liver can convert proteins to ‘fat’ storage, aswell as excess carbs to ‘fat’ storage, aswell as excess fat from the diet to fat storage.

Alcoholic fatty liver disease is exactly that - the liver has converted the super-refined-sugar-alcohol into fat and its lodged in the liver. Because alcohol is also a poison to the liver its inhibiting its ability to do all its jobs well.

If the liver is longterm compromised, the heart generally eventually gets compromised too.
In liver disease the liver enlarges, the tissue becomes stiffer, and doesnt flow blood through it as easily as a healthy liver. In cardio myop conditions they describe similar states for the heart - it gets bigger, stiffer, and blood struggles to flow.
We known in this type of liver disease is usually caused by excess nutrition.
(But skinny/lightweight people can have NAFLD, and this again raises more questions than answers - and can have various causes)

Whole peas are used in dog/cat food , but pea protein powders are processed to eliminate the carbs from peas, leaving behind just the protein. Those are mainly fed to horses for increased muscle mass, than just ground-up pea powder, which would also have a high carb ratio.

Giving 80+% pulses/carbs/legumes to carnivores swerves their diet to being vastly more high carb, than theyre really designed for.

Its not surprising that animals fed majority foods in domestic-care, theyd never in a million years eat if they were roaming wild, are getting health issues we see in humans that also consume excessive super-processed foods.

The cardiac condition you are describing associated with liver conditions...becoming bigger/stiffer with the blood struggling to flow....is not what happens with Dilated cardiomyopathy. The name describes the condition well...the heart becomes enlarged..yes, but it is thinner and flabby like a partially deflated balloon. It is a disease of the cardiac muscle cells principally. Liver disease can follow in the later stages, but that is because insufficient blood is able to be pumped around by a heart whose muscle cells are stretched without their normal overlapping structure.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Its not surprising that animals fed majority foods in domestic-care, theyd never in a million years eat if they were roaming wild, are getting health issues we see in humans that also consume excessive super-processed foods.

This^^^^^^^^^^, over and over again. We never learn.

 

[Cortez]

Peas and beans have been fed to horses for hundreds of years (the term "full of beans" was originally coined to describe the effects of excess protein on horses' behaviour - a cautionary tale), it's not at all a new idea. They will also happily scoff legumes (including peas) in a sward (or my garden...I speak from experience)

 

[quizzie]

Peas and beans have been fed to horses for hundreds of years (the term "full of beans" was originally coined to describe the effects of excess protein on horses' behaviour - a cautionary tale), it's not at all a new idea. They will also happily scoff legumes (including peas) in a sward (or my garden...I speak from experience)

Absolutely....but not hyper-processed as they are now....there have been suggestions that the processing may be relevant in dogs, but I am not aware of peer-reviewed research that backs that up.

 

[PurBee]

The cardiac condition you are describing associated with liver conditions...becoming bigger/stiffer with the blood struggling to flow....is not what happens with Dilated cardiomyopathy. The name describes the condition well...the heart becomes enlarged..yes, but it is thinner and flabby like a partially deflated balloon. It is a disease of the cardiac muscle cells principally. Liver disease can follow in the later stages, but that is because insufficient blood is able to be pumped around by a heart whose muscle cells are stretched without their normal overlapping structure.

Ah i see, is it always dilated cardiomyopathy seen in dogs, and no other cardiac myopathy?

I havent read the studies about this on dogs, just joining in on this discussion, and find it an intriguing link too.

Just recently i bought cat food, and the marketing of foods is downright sly. I got some ‘insect’ dried kibble - read the brief blurb about it being made of insects, lots of protein etc - and as my stray cat found his way to our rural farm surviving on insects, i thought he might like it! In an effort to keep carbs/grains and legumes out of his diet, which most supermarket foods offer carnivores.
The kibble arrives and i see its loaded with sweet potato, pease and fava beans! Oh but its ‘grain free’ ….they got me! Just 26% insects. The rest majority carbs.

 

[Goldenstar]

.

Absolutely....but not hyper-processed as they are now....there have been suggestions that the processing may be relevant in dogs, but I am not aware of peer-reviewed research that backs that up.

Peas where a common feed when I started out working ,they were fed to horses in hard work .
I am not sure what extra is done to peas now they always micronised ( steamed ) then pressed or flaked some times ground .
I am not sure what extra ultra processing can be done now .
Peas are often in made up horse feed to get the protein level up.
Alfalfa is a good food for horses in work and grows well here in fact better than grass when it’s hot and dry.
.

 

[quizzie]

Ah i see, is it always dilated cardiomyopathy seen in dogs, and no other cardiac myopathy?

I havent read the studies about this on dogs, just joining in on this discussion, and find it an intriguing link too.

Just recently i bought cat food, and the marketing of foods is downright sly. I got some ‘insect’ dried kibble - read the brief blurb about it being made of insects, lots of protein etc - and as my stray cat found his way to our rural farm surviving on insects, i thought he might like it! In an effort to keep carbs/grains and legumes out of his diet, which most supermarket foods offer carnivores.
The kibble arrives and i see its loaded with sweet potato, pease and fava beans! Oh but its ‘grain free’ ….they got me! Just 26% insects. The rest majority carbs.

DCM is probably the most common cardiac myopathy in large/giant breed dogs, hence why it was unusual to see DCM in the smaller breeds that also appeared in the diet-related cases....but there are definitely others, plus valvular disease, plus secondary to other conditions, plus rhythm anomalies with or without any of the preceeding..etc etc etc!

 

[quizzie]

.

Peas where a common feed when I started out working ,they were fed to horses in hard work .
I am not sure what extra is done to peas now they always micronised ( steamed ) then pressed or flaked some times ground .
I am not sure what extra ultra processing can be done now .
Peas are often in made up horse feed to get the protein level up.
Alfalfa is a good food for horses in work and grows well here in fact better than grass when it’s hot and dry.
.

I don't know what the process is to extract the pea protein, but it must involve more than micronisation/flaking to separate the carbs/fibre etc from the protein. I would assume the whole pea is fine, as it has been used for many many years......what I'm querying is the extracted pea protein.

I also don't know with dog food, whether they use the "whole" pea, or extracted components?

 

[skinnydipper]

I don't know what the process is to extract the pea protein, but it must involve more than micronisation/flaking to separate the carbs/fibre etc from the protein. I would assume the whole pea is fine, as it has been used for many many years......what I'm querying is the extracted pea protein.

I also don't know with dog food, whether they use the "whole" pea, or extracted components?

Pea protein in dog food is a byproduct of pea processing.

Pea protein in dog food | All About Dog Food

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