Peculiar dilemma: nationality when registering...any non-Brits?

[spookypony]

I want to join BD next year, but I have the complicated situation of being a dual citizen of 2 countries, neither of which is the UK...

For Endurance, this isn't a problem, apparently, until FEI: I've held a competing membership for 2 years, got my pony up to quite a respectable level, even ridden for the Scottish team at Home Internationals, and never once have I been asked my citizenship.

However, for BD, the registration form asks for nationality. First I have to have written permission of my country's federation to join (which country?), and second, they automatically put me in at Grade 3 unless I go through a process that isn't entirely clear to me to get into the correct category (which would be Grade 8, as I've not competed affiliated DR since I was 13...).

If I go the Canadian route, it's not so complicated: it seems I just have to shell out the money for a Canada Sports License, and Bob's your uncle. But for Germany, there's the added complication that to compete in Germany, I'd have to sit an exam, which I haven't done, as I was trained in Canada...so I have no idea if I could get permission to compete in the UK! You'd think it wouldn't make a difference to them at the lower levels, but I'm intrigued as to what they'll say when I ask.

Has anybody on here been through similar? It seems like a ridiculous faff at this level!

 

[Booboos]

I have a feeling it's not as complicated as it sounds. Fundamentally they are trying to avoid having someone with millions of points in X country, come over and start at group 8, but that's not your case so I wouldn't worry about it.

I would e-mail them explaining that while you have dual nationality, your competing was done in Canada and you have a Canadian license. They would then need to see your Canadian competition record and award you a relevant grouping - if you have never competed in Canada I think group 8 is still open to you.

When this rule came in I was already a BD member, they took one look at how long it had taken me to progress from Prelim to Elementary and left me where I was (I also had no competition record in Greece but they did not ask to see that).

 

[Caol Ila]

This sounds bonkers. I am American, living in the UK. If I were to join BD, are you saying that I would have to get written permission from the USDF to join? Even though I haven't shown nor been a member of the USDF since 2003?

Don't have any useful advice -- just agreement that these requirements are rubbish.

 

[Starbo]

I'm an American competing affliated. I had to get permission from USEF (not USDF, as USDF is not the governing body) and provide proof of my competition record in order to regain my group 8 rider status.

It's a nightmare, but give BD a call as they are super helpful. I was doing mine in a very short period of time in order to get it done before a competition, and it was sorted within 2 or 3 days, so once you've confirmed everything, they do tend to move quickly.

 

[spookypony]

Thanks, Starbo, I'll do that! I don't have a competition record in Germany, and I doubt I will in Canada, as the dressage I entered was I think on whatever the local equivalent of a "day ticket" was (my instructor sorted everything, I think). I wonder why Endurance is so much more relaxed? Though crazily enough, that's one discipline where getting FEI-qualified appears distinctly possible (whether or not it would actually be a good idea to do one, as FEI rides are race rides and the pony's strength is probably not in that area, is another question!).

 

[tiggs]

BD are taking a strict line on this, they disqualified the winner of their novice championship who had dual British and Australian nationality and had registered as a British rider. Story here
http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/news/show/1884-update-novice-restricted-championships-2013

 

[Topaz Tiger]

I've just gone through this to compete at FEI level for eventing, I'm Dutch, but have lived in the UK for most of my life, it was complicated and took a while, but in the end it was agreed that my entries would be administered by BE, think I would still be shown as Dutch, I was at the 1* I entered, until I reached 3*, at this point I would need to be administered by the Dutch Federation. At one point it was discussed that if BE administered my entries, I would have to go down as British, but I decided I didn't mind that.
It was a bit of a pain, which lots of emails, going to the FEI in Switzerland, from the UK and the Netherlands, but it got sorted in the end....

 

[TarrSteps]

BD are taking a strict line on this, they disqualified the winner of their novice championship who had dual British and Australian nationality and had registered as a British rider. Story here
http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/news/show/1884-update-novice-restricted-championships-2013

That's a bit different though as she withheld her previous results and therefore competed at a level she was ineligible for. That is supposed to be the whole point of the rule, so people can't just move countries and start fresh.

I know quite a few Canadians who live and compete here so it can't be that complicated. I'm sure BD and EC can tell you how to proceed.

 

[Caol Ila]

Is USEF what used to be called AHSA? That's how long ago I was competing in the US. Luckily I have no plans to compete. What a hassle.

 

[spookypony]

I think what I'll do is phone up both federations (and BD) on Monday, and just speak to a proper Human Bean. I hope the dual citizenship won't cause too much confusion!

 

[GermanyJo]

I am british but living in Germany..I need to be a member of the BHS in order that I can fax them each year for them to confirm my results in UK and give permission for me to ride here .. need to do it every year, but is not complicated

 

[spookypony]

GermanyJo, did you have to sit your Bronze qualification there to compete?

 

[Caol Ila]

What if you were American/Canadian/German/whatever and had never competed in your home country?

 

[Kikke]

Poor you, know how you feel. Me and my welsh cob need to go straight to PSG. Being dutch and did a couple high levels at pony club age.
I know people don't believe it is that complicated etc but believe me they are very very strict.
Pulled out straight after registering with BD, I am happy for us to do some novice deff. Not PSG

 

[Caol Ila]

Am I reading you right? You rode a couple high level (meaning?) tests as a kid in Holland. So now as an adult in Britain, you have to go PSG, even if your pony club experience was a long time ago and you don't now ride at that level?

 

[TarrSteps]

Am I reading you right? You rode a couple high level (meaning?) tests as a kid in Holland. So now as an adult in Britain, you have to go PSG, even if your pony club experience was a long time ago and you don't now ride at that level?

But that would be the same for any British member. I'm not au fait with the options for downgrading rider group but I certainly know people who are confined to a level because of a brief, historical attempt at a higher class than they ride at now.

That's kind of the point, to apply the rules as equally as possible to riders coming from outside the UK. As an example, if the rider in the link had competed only in the UK then she would never have been placed in that rider group in the first place.

I agree this is not always 'fair' as practices and culture are not the same the world over, but I guess if they started to have different rules for different nationalities it would be even more of a mess.

Anyway, clearly people do get it done because there are all sorts of ex pats and visitors riding here, so there must be workable options for the OP.

 

[spookypony]

From my reading of the rules, it's a 2-pronged problem:

1. I need permission from my national federation to compete. For this, I am probably only going to need permission from one country. I know that this is easy(ish) in the case of Canada; I have no idea what it entails in the case of Germany. Germany is likely to be more complicated, because in Germany itself, you have to have sat a qualification in order to compete, which I haven't done. Hopefully, a few phonecalls will sort out this question.

2. I need to prove to BD that Group 3 is not the correct group. For this, I am probably going to need proof from both countries that I don't have a competition record of alarming proportions. I will try to ask about this in the same phonecalls.

Out of curiosity, what does BD do about British citizens that have competed in other countries, and returned to the UK?

 

[Caol Ila]

So if I had some scores from US Second Level, I would *have* to compete at the equivalent here? Even if those scores are (a) more than ten years old and (b) sucked because I really shouldn't have been at that level at that time. Do federations even keep really old scores?

I'm still curious about my other query -- if you have NO competition record and have never ever been a member of your home country's showing federation, to you have to then prove non-existence? I think that's more of a question for the philosophers!

 

[TarrSteps]

If you are British and compete elsewhere at a recognised level you *should* have a BD membership and so they have access to your records. I don't know specifically how it works here but Canadians who compete overseas have to produce an EC number plus whatever discipline specific memberships are needed, but they do not have to also have a US number as there is reciprocity.

 

[spookypony]

Thanks, TarrSteps, that makes sense. So a Brit, say, in Canada would have to maintain 2 memberships, so that both federations would have access to the scores.

It seems like whatever I do, I'll have to buy a membership in at least 2 countries then. I hope it's not 3! Last time I asked (when I was still hoping the Spooky Pony might do dressage), the Canadians told me to get a Gold license, which is $120...if the Germans were similar, I could be looking at shelling out about 240 quid just in order to register with all the relevant national bodies. That's rather a lot, considering next year's goals are likely to be N and (we hope) E! Would certainly light a fire under my butt, if I did it...

Why does it seem to be different for Endurance? Could it have to do with SERC being independent from EGB being independent from ILDRA?

 

[Kikke]

Yes, that's right. They check with the dutch dressage federation and bad luck. Sounds ridiculous I know.

 

[GermanyJo]

Sorry to reply late, just got on, yes I needed to take my bronze, however it will probably help you that you have not got it, they can then happily confirm a lower level for you to the brits, plus the FN registration is relatively cheap so may be you just need to be a member and then request a similar fax as I do every year, I only pay the cheapest option of membership with the BHS every year

 

[Caol Ila]

That's me probably not ever joining BD then. I feel as though I have better things to spend money on than rejoining USEF and chasing up my crappy show record so I can show low level dressage tests in Britain.

Thanks for this thread, though. I'm glad I found out now, as I have my 20-year old horse and don't really care, rather than find out the hard way if/when I get a young horse and get afflicted with the desire to show again. I'd be really bummed if it was something I was keen to do.

 

[Booboos]

Very interesting thread, I'd be grateful if you could let us know what happens Spooky.

I wonder what they would make of me. I was registered with BD eons ago and they never querried my Greek nationality (to be fair I had never competed in Greece so had they querried it, it would not have been a problem), and I am now competing in France (where they didn't care about the Greek nationality but asked for my BD record to prove that I was allowed to compete, rather than exclude me - weird, they are all doing their own thing!). So if I wanted to go back to the UK (which I am not planning on), could I just renew my BD membership and continue as normal or would I have to tell them about France?

What a mess!

 

[TarrSteps]

I suspect there are lots of people who move and never even think to tell anyone they've competed before if they are below FEI level, where all records are international. The problem with it is the horse world is such a small place there is a good chance someone will pop up who knows enough to ask if the rider is competing in restricted classes.

Somewhere like Canada it's virtually a non-issue as there are few restrictions on competition levels. But there are very strict rules about Amateur status so information pertaining to that situation would be of more interest.

In the end a lot of it comes down to personal honesty, I suspect.

 

[Caol Ila]

If there are restrictions on what levels you can ride after you've reached a certain level, how on earth do people bring on young horses?

If you've gotten horse A to Advance Medium, say, and then you get young horse B and start showing him, can you ride him at the lower levels?

 

[TarrSteps]

You can ride in Open competition, just not Restricted. There are also limits on who can do W/T tests.

In North America, if there is a division, it's Open and Amateur, so same idea, just different criteria.

 

[Caol Ila]

Yes, I know how Open and Amateur works (it has its own silliness). People do all kinds of interesting contortions to work around that one.

 

[TarrSteps]

Less so these days as it's pretty black and white, there are none of those limits about how much you teach or how much you make anymore. If you make money off horses, you are not an Amateur. Which doesn't mean people don't try but it often has a funny way of coming out. The horse world is very small.

 

[Booboos]

If there are restrictions on what levels you can ride after you've reached a certain level, how on earth do people bring on young horses?

If you've gotten horse A to Advance Medium, say, and then you get young horse B and start showing him, can you ride him at the lower levels?

In France, for example, there are very few opportunities for professionals to compete young horse although they are trying to remedy the situation. I think it's only been 2 years since they introduced young horse classes. But it's all down to the main idiotic system that has only 3 rider classifications and 2 horse classifications:
Anyone can ride Club (kind of unaffiliated but not really)
You need a Galop 7 exam to ride Amateur
You need a Galop 9 exam to ride Pro

Any horse can enter Club
Only horses with a 3 generation pedigree can enter Amateur and Pro

It's a pointless system as, for example, Amateur tests range from an easy Novice to PSG.