pedal Bone rotation

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xsara1

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Hi
I have just got my mare back from loan who has come back lame. She had a real bad flare up of laminitis 3 years ago where she had to have corrective shoeing for her pedal bones had rotated to about 45 degrees. She did come right though after alot of suffereing hardly being able to stand for around 3 months. I brought her back into work a year later was sound and happy and some one took her on loan. She gave her up as she got her own horse and a friend of hers took her on. However they had her 6 weeks and phoned me to collect her as they couldn't keep her sound. She has been with me for four weeks on box rest had a couple of back people do her and she was really sore but after getting her muscles sorted was still not completely sound so organised x-rays with the vet. The news was not so good and the rotation in the bad foot he reckons is beyond repair. she is still on box rest and is nearly sound but i found that if i took her out and wlaked her round the padock for five mins she was hobbling the next day. She seems content enough though i have noticed wee things like standing with her two front feet on her bed most of the time and the yard owner was telling me that she lies flat out alot more than she has seen a horse do before obviously trying to take the pressure of. I was going to get the xrays and let the blacksmith have a look but i dont want to put her to the floor again like she was 3 yrs ago as i couldnt see her go through that again and the only reason we perservered was because she had a foal at foot, she is other wise healthy but at the moment confined to the box. I would like some advice as to what i should do and whether people have seen horses with marked pedal bone rotation and alot of hoof structure change come right but i dont want to see her suffer she owes us nothing, but at the same time dont want to just give up unless the enevitable is the kindest thing thanks for reading oh ans i would just like to add she is 10yrs and has rolled shoes on to try and relieve the pressure of her toes
 
has she got shoes on now? has the vet and farrier seen her? might be worth getting her some bar shoes of some sort for support or frog supports and wraps? she could be prescribed bute or danellon etc (to keep her comfortable) and then you can get the foot balance and support in place? or a lamanitic section of feet (looks radical but works well) then suck it and see. at 10 years old might be worth the effort of trying! good luck
 
Imprints can be really helpful with laminitis. I have a 13hh pony who had the better part of 2 years off with laminitis and had rotated pedal bones. At his worst he was on 4 butes and 4 acps a day. He had imprints on his front feet and ordinary shoes with silicon pads on his back feet. He is nearly 14 now and has been sound for just over 2 years now. He can't cope without front shoes on (he just has ordinary ones now) but as long as he has them on he is ok. It can be a very very long road to getting them right again but I'm so glad I tried every option with my pony.
 
Sara - I think many ownes of neds with serious laminitis problems have had a huge amount of advice and guidance from the laminitis trust. I'd try that before you give up, but I do think you are right to start asking the awful question about quality of life. Leave no stones unturned and then re-assess if she's still suffering. Got everything crossed for you. Glad she's got such a thoughtful and loving mum x
 
It's a horrible situation to be in and in the end only you can make the final decision. However I would recommend you read this book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Founder-Prevention-Cure-Natural-Way/dp/0965800733/ref=pd_sim_b_3

Many laminitis (founder) cases, including those with coffin bone sole penetration, have been helped by following the guidance in that book. It has case studies from people who have been through exactly what you're going through and hopefully it will help you with whatever you decide.
 
I cant offer any advice in your case only to say that you know your horse better than anyone else and if you feel that she is coping throughout treatment then carry on as it seems to be retrievable in most cases.
My lad is has been given the all clear from laminitis in August with 12 degree rotation in one foot but he is still on alert stage with me because it would not take much to set it off again with all the changes in weather and conditions etc. Even the farrier doing a minor corrective trim with his heart bars back on set him off sore again for a week.
Unfortunately my lad does not cope at all on box rest and in the end he was so stressed and box walking so much that I made a small paddock area with no grass and turned him out and this really helped his reovery far more than the confinement did. They are all different and whilst I appreciate the vets and Laminitis Clinic have a text book method for treatment...it does not work with every horse.
I wish you well and hope your horse makes a full recovery again..it is so hard, harder than anything in all my years of horse ownership to manage and treat, so I feel your and your horses pain very much. Take care both.
 
As long as you can get on top of the inflammation and stop her food or metabolic condition causing inflammation but get her enough nutrition and movement to allow her feet to grow, then pedal bone rotation is not "beyond repair" - she will grow a new foot from the top which is properly attached to the bone. What your vet may mean is that he feels it would be inhumane to let her live long enough to do it, but that's a different argument altogether.

Very good luck with this. If you want to discuss notes with lots of people with horses with laminitic issues who also believe that their ponies are better off with their frogs supported on the floor than on a heart bar shoe, then pop in to uknhcp.myfastforum.org
 
Thanks for all your support 'ofcourseyoucan' she currently has shoes on with a rolled toe. and gedenskis_girl thanks for the book recommendation i will be getting a copy of that after christmas when the post returns to normal will make for some interesting reading i think. I am also thinking of moving her to another livery yard as the one i am on is not ideal as it is stoney. The paddock is small stones and there is stones on the path ways which i think will not be helping as she is sensitive with her feet. And i know one a bit further away that my friend is at and it is rubber paddock and a bit less stoney on the yard.
 
Hi, almost 5 years ago now my mare went terribly lame suddenly and after suspecting only abscess the vets admitted her and x rays showed marked rotation in one forefoot (not sure of the degree involved) but it was touch and go. She did also have an abscess which when released came with such force it went up the stable wall.. Her hoof was so drastically cut away it did not resemble a hoof at all!!!! My girl was so bad i thought any day they would tell me i have to make THAT decision. After 3 weeks in the vets, then two months box rest at home with heart bar shoes and thick bed, she was allowed tiny turnout on a sectioned off part of my lawn ( about 10x15 foot) She then had bar shoes with plastic frog supports for over a year and was still intermittently lame. I decided after vets advice to leave her longer out of work but put her in foal as she was sound in the field. She had her first foal this year aged 17. She is now as sound as i have ever seen her and in the spring i am going to try and bring her in to some light work, but if she can not cope then she will be retired as a companion for my youngsters. It has been a long, very long road but i am so pleased i hung in there and gave her the chance. My beautifull filly foal is there to prove that, only you and your vet can decide whats best. Good luck, hope this helps.
 
Wooley has very bad laminitis in 2004, pedal rotation in fronts. He had a couple of episodes up till 2008. Then I moved him to another yard 18 months ago and has not had it since. He is 26, sound, hacks out 4 times a week.When he was ill he could not stand. I thought it was the end last time he had it. It was a truely awful time. Have heart, you may be like me and still have your horse years later. At the old yard the grass was rich, now he is out 24 hours a day on poor, but well managed grass. Moving saved his life.
 
hi there, did you ever know what caused the origional laminitis, i e intolerance to high carbs ,spring grass, or other rich feed. or was it retained placenta, if none of these, was she shod with long toes out front, which could have tugged her hoofwall foward[laminitis in foot only, with no systemic input] if you have an idea what caused it then you can prevent it happening again.
if her current problem is damaged laminae from previous, and no on going cause, then there is no reason why she can not be completly sorted.
you must know if the bone is rotated in relation to the hoofwall, the sole, or both. if the hoof wall is straight when viewed from the side ie not swept in an outward curve like a trumpet or bell, then it is likely that the wedge shaped laminae is stretched back with a rotated pedal bone. however if the bone is devinitly rotated, it will be pressing down into the sole at it,s tip, it is not possible for the bone to rotate or sink in the capsule without increased pressure on the sole.
so if the bone has rotated in the past, but is not moving at the moment, then a complete normal foot can be achieved.
this can be done by a combination of trimming and building up, to bring the bottom of the pedalbone into the same plane as the sole. the hoof wall in the toe area should be trimmed back to reveal stretched laminae,[possibly decayed] this will ease outward pressure on the damaged laminae/ white line.
when all this is complete, the underside of the foot can be supported using imprints, hoof casts, or urithanes
the toe should be trimmed back often, in order that the new growth growing down becomes healthy ,and tightly attached. after a fiew months the bone will no longer be rotated in relation to hoofwall or sole
 
hi thanks for all your advice she originally got it form steriods given when she was 3 for a cough we were given no warning and at time she was on big feeds as we were trying to keep her condition on as she was growing. We were not told to cut it back. Now it is stress that sets it off. her hoofwall is sweeping at the toe, and her heels are far too long. and the foot over time has gone boxy. She is very sensitive in her sole and cannot tolerate the paddock at all but is actually better on the harder level ground which i find hard to understand the only thing i can think of is the shoe is keeping the weight of the sole and the paddock shapes in the shoe and there fore is putting pressure on her sole. I think the pedal bone is pressing on her sole and that is why she is so sore. She hasn't got laminitis at the moment but i dont know if she had another flare up when on loan for the 6 weeks to cause this sudden onset of lameness. The blacksmith is due out on wednsday so i am going to have a good long talk with him and decide what is the best cause of action The pedal bone is pointing down wards in the xrays and there is a bigger gap between the pedal bone and front hoof wall capsule the further towards the toe you go i will try and get some pictures of her hoof shape before and after the blacksmith and i will try and get the xrays of the vet thanks for all the help and suggestions i am not giving up yet but cant stand the fact she isnt even fit to go out in the paddock and she hates being in
 
Diet, diet and diet. This must be got right I'm afraid first as other have said to reduce inflammation and allow a new hoof with good connection to grow.
To follow the advice in Founder prevention and cure takes a lot of guts and very openminded vet and farrier as well as a Farrier who knows how to trim in the way described.
Sadly for many a 'barefoot' solution is a last resort but if you do decide to go this way get a trimmer experienced in dealing with founder. A UKNHCP or a good EP. You will need them for dietry and management advice as well as an appropriate trim.
Also if you do decide this route it cannot imo be half hearted ie. it is a totally holistic approach and so all aspects of care must be addressed.
Trimmers will also advise re appropriate support pads and boots if needed.
Here's an article about reversing distal decent (dropped/rotated coffin bone.) http://www.hoofrehab.com/jessica.htm
Best of luck.
 
thanks amanda that artical was very interesting and is exactly what my mare is like and needs. We turned her to barefoot three years ago after 2 trimmings with heart bars and left her in the field when she came back in careful trimming and they were fine. A the moment she is only fed half a scoop of healthy hoof chaff with a vitamin supplement and she gets some haylage as she is allergic to hay even soaked twice a day but only a tub. It certainly gives me hope that the farrier will be able to help her. The farrier i have is good he is currently treating a mare at the yard who was diagnosed with cushons this summer and cam down with laminitis after two trimmings he has her sound, and he also helped her the last time but i might ask him about boots instead of shoes for her feet or take the shoes of for the first trim and i will box rest her on a good bed
 
There is an interesting question around laminitis - I'll just throw it out there for debate becuase it was posed to me by my trimmer and it certainly made me think things through.

Laminitis implies a degeneration in the connection between the sensitive and insensitive laminae - a progressive breakdown in the bond between the pedal bone and the hoof wall. Add rotation and you have a picture of weight pressing on the sole.

So does it make sense to appply a device that loads the hoof periperally, leaving the weight of the horse to suspend on a compromised wall, and the already compromised sole to be brought into a bridging role rather than s supporting role? Even heartbars leave the sole in a bridging role?

I have 2 laminitics - bith rehabilitated without shoes - opne had pretty marked rotation. Both are sound with the right diet and supporting environment - they needed the right trim as well, but that's a small part of the overall picture (e.g the "right trim" will make no difference if the surface they live on and diet aren't addressed.

I had my lamis on sand, and then on pea gravel when they were comfortable. They loved the pea gravel and could stand with their feet at the angle that they found comfortable.
 
Hi everyone,
I have a horse that I love very much... About 9 weeks ago I took him to Ponyclub as usual we did a perfect jump round and then as soon as we finished he as awfully lame I got straight off and took him home. At first I thought he had just jared his shoulder or something but he got worse so we got the vet out and it was said that he has slight rotation of the pedal bone in both front feet which of corse means laminitis... He's had pads and bandages which to me did nothing! We then filled his stable with sand and shavings underneath. It has been a week since hes been in the sand stable and he's not getting better. He's had his toes cut but nothing seems to be working, he's on bute also.. It breaks my heart watching him suffer but I'm not ready to give up on him, i've never met a horse with such a personality! Please help me to save him anything advice I'm willing to give a go its just not fair he's only 11 and has plenty of life left in him... Look forward to hearing any advice
 
soph10xx said:
Hi everyone,
I have a horse that I love very much... About 9 weeks ago I took him to Ponyclub as usual we did a perfect jump round and then as soon as we finished he as awfully lame I got straight off and took him home. At first I thought he had just jared his shoulder or something but he got worse so we got the vet out and it was said that he has slight rotation of the pedal bone in both front feet which of corse means laminitis... He's had pads and bandages which to me did nothing! We then filled his stable with sand and shavings underneath. It has been a week since hes been in the sand stable and he's not getting better. He's had his toes cut but nothing seems to be working, he's on bute also.. It breaks my heart watching him suffer but I'm not ready to give up on him, i've never met a horse with such a personality! Please help me to save him anything advice I'm willing to give a go its just not fair he's only 11 and has plenty of life left in him... Look forward to hearing any advice
Click to expand...

1) Post some pics of his hooves (side view from the ground and sole view, if possible).

2) Has he any metabolic problems like Insulin Resistance or Cushings?

3) List everything that goes in his mouth.

4) Does he have any other history?
 
Hi,
I will post some pics asap, how do you post photo's?
Oska hasn't had any metabolic problems like Insulin Resistance or Cushings as far as I know....
He was on a get fat diet when he was in work now he has a simple diet -
Hay - all day as he's stabled 24/7
8 cups of white chaff once a day
6 cups of umm this is terrible I can't remember what its called! It's square hard brown dried dog food type?
7mls bute in the morning and another 7 at night
The vet did tell us that it has nothing to do with his diet but you never know!
About a year and a half ago he was sore and we thought it may have been laminitis but it just turned out he was lame... Thats all I know history wise.
Hope this answers your questions
Thanks
 
soph10xx said:
Hi,
I will post some pics asap, how do you post photo's?
Oska hasn't had any metabolic problems like Insulin Resistance or Cushings as far as I know....
He was on a get fat diet when he was in work now he has a simple diet -
Hay - all day as he's stabled 24/7
8 cups of white chaff once a day
6 cups of umm this is terrible I can't remember what its called! It's square hard brown dried dog food type?
7mls bute in the morning and another 7 at night
The vet did tell us that it has nothing to do with his diet but you never know!
About a year and a half ago he was sore and we thought it may have been laminitis but it just turned out he was lame... Thats all I know history wise.
Hope this answers your questions
Thanks
Click to expand...

I'm afraid that if your horse has rotation then your vet is, by definition, wrong.

In a healthy foot, the laminae are so strongly connected that the hoof wall would tear apart before the laminae separated. In order for the laminae to separate and rotation to occur, there must be an underlying dietary issue which has weakened the laminae.

Once separation has occurred, the laminae cannot join back together - you have to start over. In order for the new hoof growth to remain well connected, you must resolve the dietary issue which allowed the hoof to separate. I can't stress enough how important that is.

In your position, I would remove all hard feed bar a small amount of chaff or fast fibre, and add a good mineral supplement, such as Pro Hoof, Equimins META balance, or a Forage Plua balancer.

ETA: It may be that the 'get fat' diet was what caused the separation in the first place.
 
soph10xx said:
Hi,
I will post some pics asap, how do you post photo's?
Oska hasn't had any metabolic problems like Insulin Resistance or Cushings as far as I know....
He was on a get fat diet when he was in work now he has a simple diet -
Hay - all day as he's stabled 24/7
8 cups of white chaff once a day
6 cups of umm this is terrible I can't remember what its called! It's square hard brown dried dog food type?
7mls bute in the morning and another 7 at night
The vet did tell us that it has nothing to do with his diet but you never know!
About a year and a half ago he was sore and we thought it may have been laminitis but it just turned out he was lame... Thats all I know history wise.
Hope this answers your questions
Thanks
Click to expand...

You need to know what you are feeding as this is very important.

You post picks by downloading them to Photobucket and then click on IMG code in the box next to the picture on Photobucket, then right click and paste on here.

I disagree with your vet that it's nothing to do with diet - unless there is something more to the case that we don't know.
 
Sorry to hear your horse is lame....

It is absolutely essential you act very proactively to prevent any further damage being done. His diet is totally in your control.

"it was said that he has slight rotation of the pedal bone in both front feet which of corse means laminitis... "

was this rotation confirmed by x-ray?

If laminitis is confirmed by your vet then diet is absolutely crucial..... minimise sugar intake by cutting out any cereal .... just stick to a little handfull of chaff to use as a carrier for medication and soak hay for minimum of 12 hours.
 
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