Pedigree pups not KC registere

ribbons

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I am looking into getting a pup having been dogless for a couple of years.
In the past I've had hounds, breeding and showing whippets and working with whippet and Italian greyhound rescue. My daughter still has whippets, but I was thinking of having a change, maybe chihuahua or toy poodle.
Anyway, regardless of the breed, looking on several websites I was astounded to see more pups not KC reg than those that were. I am assuming this is due to the restrictions put in place to limit the number of litters from a bitch.
Now I don't want to show or breed but it is important to me that an expensive pup has the correct paper work. Anyone with unregistered pups I've
spoken to have assured me pup comes with 5 generation pedigree, which to be honest proves nothing.
Am I alone in expecting breeders of pedigree dogs to do the job properly, some of these puppies were 6 & 7 hundred pounds.
 

CorvusCorax

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I'm no fan of the KC, they are not ideal, but better the devil you know.
I'd like KC registration and IDing to go a lot further.

Apart from the fact that KC registration impacts on the profits of backyard breeders and puppy farmers, that bloody 'Pedigree Dogs Exposed' programme has essentially given shysters an even better reason to con Joe Public out of cash.
'Nasty KC encourages inbreeding and deformity and health problems, our backyard bred mutts are HEALTHIER!!!!' (and often cost the same as, if not more than pups from parents of registered, health tested parents, sigh....)
 

Oenoke

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There could be several reasons why pups aren't KC registered. The mum could be under a year, over 7 years, had more than 4 litters, 1 of the parents has an endorsement, 1 of the parents aren't registered (for 1 of the above reasons).

I would not buy a pup that isn't registered, or from parents that aren't tested for anything that the breed should be checked for (hip scoring, DNA testing, eye testing, etc).
 

s4sugar

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If pups that could/should be registered are not the red flags come out. It is usually because something is dodgy.
Often because thesomewhere in the pedigree/parents is an endorsement or overbreeding or sometimes even a made up pedigree for a stolen dog.

Better to avoid. KC registration is no guarantee of quality but not having it is proof of less than scrupulous breeding practices.

BTW it costs £15 to register a puppy.
 

CorvusCorax

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I like to look at health test results as well, which are more likely to take place when the breeders have bothered to register them.

If your purebred pup, God forbid, develops problems that turn out to be hereditary....would you not prefer to have at least a three gen pedigree to help pinpoint where the problem lies, to help other people and to help avoid those lines in future?
How on earth can some health problems be eradicated if the dog's name is committed to no kind of paper trail or database?

If you don't have papers and bred your unregistered purebred to another, especially in a similar geographic area, how can you be sure that the mates are not related?
 

CorvusCorax

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To add, if I may quote from personal experience, all of our dogs have come from generations of low-hip scoring stock - we use the German system which records health test results ON the pedigrees - none have ever had hip dysplasia.

The dog I had PTS a couple of weeks ago had skin conditions and was PTS because of AF. Because I had a five gen pedigree I could do research and find out that he is inbred on two dogs known to produce skin problems, and a dog out of his mother's mother, also died from AF - so I know which lines to steer clear of and to warn others thinking about buying a pup. If I go out again and blindly buy another 'pedigree GSD' with no papers or without looking at the papers, I could easily make the same mistake and go through it all again.
 

Dobiegirl

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It's irrelevant to me if a "pure breed " puppy has KC papers I look at the pup the parents and the home.

So many people think like this, have no interest in showing or breeding and just want a pet. BYBs rely on this, yes they may well have the mum or a dog purporting to be mum(I have seen this) and have a nice home but breed their dog every time. As others have said although KC reg is no guarantee on health at the very least you know the bitch isnt over bred. bred too young or too old.

If it isnt KC reg I wouldnt be interested in buying a pup but the parents would have to have the relevant health tests as well. Checking out a lot of pups for sale ads, price is no reflection either of quality, Labradoodles for example are well in excess of a lot of KC reg health tested Labradors and Poodles.
 

CorvusCorax

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Labradoodles for example are well in excess of a lot of KC reg health tested Labradors and Poodles.

And just for those who think that crosses are 'healthier' - crossing an untested dog and an untested bitch, from breeds both prone to hip dysplasia, does not a healthy dog make!!!!
And then there's the fact that poodles can be prone to epilepsy, and the fact that they pups may take the labrador coat and may end up shedding, despite the sales pitch....
 

SplashofSoy

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The home, the parents and the health tests are what are important. Granted the likelyhood of a non KC registered breeder having carried out all the health tests is unlikely, i would take a health tested pup from a good home over a KC registered non health tested one. But if i was looking for a pedigree dog I would want all things including KC registration and health tests as part of a whole package.
 

CorvusCorax

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Yes and the having good parents and a nice home AND KC registration and health tests, are not mutually exclusive.

(Can I just say I again that I have no agenda, I don't breed, I don't stud my dog, I just feel passionately about health, traceability and accountability and all those things are much more likely when there is a paper trail!!)

It's a case of money as well, personally I would use my money to reward the people who are trying to do everything right by their dogs, the breed and the potential purchasers, not someone who is cutting corners to make maximum profit for themselves. Health tests cost less on a breeding animal than some people are charging for one puppy.

And one more thing :p people often put a lot of store into going and seeing both parents in the home - while obviously it is important to see the mother, I am suspicious of people who breed the same pair of dogs back every season or every year, especially with no health tests - that again smacks to me of money making.
 
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MurphysMinder

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I agree re health testing being more important than KC reg, but in reality I think it is very unlikely that people will bother to health test dogs but not register them. I would always be wary of dogs with pedigrees but no KC reg for the reasons stated above, mated too young, old, often etc. Another one to watch out is when the parents are KC reg but the pups aren't, more than likely means the breeders of the parents had applied endorsements that they weren't to be bred from.
It is also very easy to make up pedigrees, all you need to do is get a blank pedigree form and stick a few names on. Years ago some came to see our stud dog with a view to using him, and as usual we requested they bring her papers. It turned out that not only was the bitch not registered, but her mother was supposedly a daughter of our stud dog.:eek: As we knew full well he had not been used on this particular bitch we explained to them that they had been sold a "pup" and advised them not to breed from her as heaven knows what her breeding was.
 

Elsiecat

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We plan to eventually breed one of my dogs.
She isn't KC registered. She is a pedigree.
She is from a breeder who does all the relevant testing. Her parents are lovely.
My dog will have all the relevant tests and will be bred to a stud with the relevant tests.
2 family friends have already said they want a puppy when the time comes round to it. They know the bitch, her temperament, her health, where she's been breed.

IMO KC reg. means very little these days.
My brother recently got a puppy that was KC registered. He got it home to find it was riddled with fleas and worms. They've reported them to the RSPCA who have been round to the breeders.

Unless you want a dog for showing then temperament, health and parents are much more important than a piece of paper that in this day and age proves very little.
 

Elsiecat

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It is also very easy to make up pedigrees, all you need to do is get a blank pedigree form and stick a few names on. Years ago some came to see our stud dog with a view to using him, and as usual we requested they bring her papers. It turned out that not only was the bitch not registered, but her mother was supposedly a daughter of our stud dog.:eek: As we knew full well he had not been used on this particular bitch we explained to them that they had been sold a "pup" and advised them not to breed from her as heaven knows what her breeding was.

I bet that was an awkward conversation... :eek:
 

TrasaM

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My friend took on a lab x collie from a rescue. It turns out he has serious hip problems and aged 4 is facing either hip replacements or the rest of his life on strong meds. He was from a puppy mill originally. you'd have thought that a x breed would have been ok? Seems not. :(
 

s4sugar

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We plan to eventually breed one of my dogs.
She isn't KC registered. She is a pedigree.
She is from a breeder who does all the relevant testing. Her parents are lovely.
My dog will have all the relevant tests and will be bred to a stud with the relevant tests.
2 family friends have already said they want a puppy when the time comes round to it. They know the bitch, her temperament, her health, where she's been breed.

IMO KC reg. means very little these days.
My brother recently got a puppy that was KC registered. He got it home to find it was riddled with fleas and worms. They've reported them to the RSPCA who have been round to the breeders.

Unless you want a dog for showing then temperament, health and parents are much more important than a piece of paper that in this day and age proves very little.

So why isn't your bitch registered? They will be a reason and it won't be a good one.
 

s4sugar

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She offered to register it at cost and we said no as we aren't interested in the papers.

Sorry that doesn't add up. A good breeder stands by their stock and will insist on registration -or did you sign a no breeding contract?
A don't know any reputable stud dog owner that will accept an unregistered bitch.
 

CorvusCorax

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Unless you want a dog for showing then temperament, health and parents are much more important than a piece of paper that in this day and age proves very little.

Did you actually read my post about the dog I had PTS last week?
My dog was not shown. But thank goodness I have a piece of paper so that I know what lines to avoid in future and can advise other people.
How do you prove the parents have had health tests, without pieces of paper? I take Bob in with no papers and get a set of x-rays for 'Bob' - Bob could be any dog.
At least with a database, that helps fight (but obviously not prevent) fraud.

Where the KC needs to tighten up is to have pedigrees which stay with the dog for life and record all the health test results, IMO, although they are improving their database.
 

Elsiecat

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Sorry that doesn't add up. A good breeder stands by their stock and will insist on registration -or did you sign a no breeding contract?
A don't know any reputable stud dog owner that will accept an unregistered bitch.

I didn't sign a contract stating that, no.

I should have seen the way this would go :rolleyes:
 

CorvusCorax

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My friend took on a lab x collie from a rescue. It turns out he has serious hip problems and aged 4 is facing either hip replacements or the rest of his life on strong meds. He was from a puppy mill originally. you'd have thought that a x breed would have been ok? Seems not. :(

Labs are prone to HD. If the lab and/or the collie part of the pairing had/throws HD, it doesn't matter what you cross it with, the pups will have a high chance of developing HD. Environment/exercise and feeding have a role, but it's hard to ****** up genetically good hips.
This is what the 'x-breds are healthier' brigade cannot seem to understand :(
 

Elsiecat

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Did you actually read my post about the dog I had PTS last week?
My dog was not shown. But thank goodness I have a piece of paper so that I know what lines to avoid in future and can advise other people.
How do you prove the parents have had health tests, without pieces of paper? I take Bob in with no papers and get a set of x-rays for 'Bob' - Bob could be any dog.
At least with a database, that helps fight (but obviously not prevent) fraud.

Where the KC needs to tighten up is to have pedigrees which stay with the dog for life and record all the health test results, IMO, although they are improving their database.

No I haven't but I will have a look. Sorry to hear about your dog!

Yes I agree the KC needs to tighten up. People tend to think that because a dog is KC registered it is automatically healthy, which sadly isn't always the case.
 

MurphysMinder

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If a breeder wants to charge you to register your pup then I would get the impression they are only interested in the money. A good breeder is proud of the puppies they breed that is why they want them to carry their affix. As your bitch has had good results in health tests the breeder has missed out on their affix being shown on her listings on the KC website.
You may also find that the owners of any decent stud dogs will be reluctant for them to be used on unregistered bitches.
 

CorvusCorax

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The post is on this thread, it's up there a bit ^^^

Also agree with MM.

I get have advised on puppy purchase here and elsewhere and I would never send anyone in the direction of a breeder who breeds from unregistered stock or who does not register their own - apart from anything else it's TRACEABILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY - without papers and proof, you haven't a leg to stand on if things go wrong healthwise.

(I mean whatever registry is the FCI registry in the country of purchase, as mentioned I have no particular love of the KC)
 
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Elsiecat

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If a breeder wants to charge you to register your pup then I would get the impression they are only interested in the money. A good breeder is proud of the puppies they breed that is why they want them to carry their affix. As your bitch has had good results in health tests the breeder has missed out on their affix being shown on her listings on the KC website.
You may also find that the owners of any decent stud dogs will be reluctant for them to be used on unregistered bitches.

You could be correct re. the stud.

Like I said, its only a plan. If anything changes or we feel it's best to spay my dog beforehand then I will do so. I'm really not interested in the money aspect. 2 family friends are interested, as is brother and I'd be keeping one. Which would probably leave 1 puppy maximum.

If anything makes me second guess I won't be doing it. My dog's (and any potential puppies) happiness and health comes first to me.
 

ribbons

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Oh good, I'm not alone then.
My daughter bred her whippet bitch 4 years ago. One litter, to keep a couple herself and had friends booking pups if she had
had 20. They were fully registered, had 5 generation pedigrees and were all health checked.
I agree, KC is not perfect but at least you have a fighting chance that the pup is what it claims to be.
Both parents available to view, (without papers) means nothing.
Pedigrees can be compiled by
the breeder and I want to be sure that GGG grandsire is who it claims to be, not possibly a random crossbreed that is not showing in this litter.
I also met with some horrific health issues during my time with breed rescue. A little IG that had so many litters without the proper care that age 6 she had no teeth and her jaw was starting to break down as litter after litter drained her body of calcium. If KC registration does nothing more than help solve problems like this then that is good enough for me.
I really wish customers would all insist on registration. Goldenstar, seeing a lovely home with really nice breeders means nothing, believe me. The guy who bred that little IG to death could charm the birds from the trees, and his home was beautiful. The many other bitches and pups on his production line were conveniently out of the way when buyers visited.
 

CorvusCorax

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Just read it. Why would anyone breed a dog with a known problem. How terrible :( Are they accountable for anything? Trading standards etc?

These dogs did not have known problems in their own lifetimes and the dog in question was on paper, bred in the purple with many world champions in his pedigree with all health tests carried out.

AF cannot be tested for and does not develop until later life.
Likewise, skin conditions cannot be tested for and it is hard to identify the culprits until many years down the line and litters on the ground. It was only later that these two particular dogs have been identified.

All you can do is look at the pedigrees and do research - which is WHY pedigrees are so important IMO.
That is why there ARE databases - to indentify any problems which may crop up and help eliminate them in future.

Will it put me off GSDs? Or that breeder? Or German lines? Of course not, I just know which dogs to avoid and to advise others to be aware. He was our only one genetically unhealthy dog among dozens we have owned over the years.

It's not just Mum and Dad we have to look at in dogs - the dogs behind them, and the dogs behind them, can be equally important.
 

Elsiecat

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I really wish customers would all insist on registration. Goldenstar, seeing a lovely home with really nice breeders means nothing, believe me. The guy who bred that little IG to death could charm the birds from the trees, and his home was beautiful. The many other bitches and pups on his production line were conveniently out of the way when buyers visited.

This has just reminded me about that thing of that BYB who would take a litter from her breeding barn into her house like they were family pets whenever people came for viewings :(
 

Adina

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I am currently researching before buying a GSD puppy. I've had them for 40 yrs and in the beginning bought two KC registered GSD. I took them both abroad and bred a few litters and they were registered with the appropriate Kennel Club. I also had a Kenyan bred bitch tested for HD under the then very new BVA scheme. (0,0). Since returning to UK I have had a very lovely well bred KC registered GSD, followed by 2 rescues. The last rescue is now 16, but has been full of problems: narrow ear canals - repeated infections, skin problems, gluten allergy, anal gland problems, she needs an expensive diet, hip problems so I had to give up obedience training. She has a lovely temperament but I had to retrain a very confused dog. I love her dearly, but the next one MUST be KC registered with health checked parents. It doesn't guarantee a perfect dog but gives steps in the right direction.
 
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