pedigree Query for French TB

[criso]

Read a couple of these threads and so impressed with all your knowledge and wondered if someone fancied looking at my boy's lines.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/saint+francois

Hope the link works as I'm on my Blackberry, if it doesn't he's Saint Francois.

Thanks.

 

[magic104]

Hi, I had a mare that had foaled in France but not all of them had been registered with Weatherbys & I found it on this link http://www2.france-galop.com/FGWeb/domaines/chevaux/cheval_perf.aspx?L=en

 

[magic104]

There is a photo of his sire on this link http://www.sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=10503063&time=1289159617

 

[criso]

Thanks - his dad's in Ireland now at the Rathbarry stud. Frankie looks a lot like him. He was too slow to race so no history there but not necessariy a bad thing for my purposes.

I I was wondering about the bloodlines, I recognise obvious ones ike Mill Reef but don't know much about others in his peigree.

 

[vineyridge]

Absolutely wonderful pedigree for sport.

Sicambre is the sire of Sacramento Song xx, a tb who was used in German (Holsteiner) WB breeding, mostly for jumpers. He is also the dam sire of Sea Bird, and the sire of Shantung. He is a son of Sif, a very influential French mare, who was by the same sire as Wild Risk. She was also the dam of Soleil Levant, the sire of the French GP jumper and sire, Night and Day xx. Night and Day is found quite lot in SF show jumpers. Sicambre had a full sister, Senones, who is the dam of Snob by Mourne, who is also found quite a bit in SF breeding for show jumpers. Sif is the same sire line as Ribot, since she traces to the Saint Simon son, Rabelais, who was used primarily in France, but is one of the two Saint Simon lines that have survived to the modern day. The other Saint Simon line that has survived from his son Persimmon is through the Prince Rose sons of which Prince Bio is one. What's rather interesting about the Saint Simon line horses is that trace back to Eclipse, but through a completely different son from the Stockwell (Phalaris) line sires and most of the other Darley lines who go to Pot 8 Os, while the Saint Simons go back to King Fergus.

Robin des Champs is from chasers and has a brother who is also a chaser. I look at his photo from Rathbury Stud and think to myself that that is a perfect horse for eventers.

The Wild Risk line is everywhere in sport horse breeding for everything from jumpers (Julio Mariner), dressage (Lauries Crusador) and eventing (Miner's Lamp has him doubled), and this guy has him through his son Worden. I've just mentioned the most famous Wild Risks. There are many, many others. High Top has him through granddaughter Camenae.

Relic is also everywhere in sport horse breeding through multiple descendants, both in North America and in Europe. He was exported to France, and has many, many WB descendants and ISH descendants. His two most influential offspring are his son Buisson Ardent in Ireland and his daughter Relance in France. What's especially useful in having Relic is that you have a sire line that goes back to Matchem, one of the three foundation sires of the modern TB.

Derring Do was a superior line for chasers, as you know, and Pardal was a son of Adargatis, the 3/4 sister of the very great broodmare dam in North America, La Troienne. Pardal had a half brother named Ardan, who was the grandsire on top of the US International jumper, Idle Dice.

Vieux Manoir and Val de Loire are foundation TBs for SF breeding. Vieux Manoir is a son of Brantome by Blandford, and I believe that it's impossible to have a modern day sport horse without having Blandford. Mourne, son of Vieux Manoir, was the grandsire of Laudanum. Val de Loire has a line to Jock, who happens to have been the grandsire of Soleil Levant, mentioned above in the discussion of Sif.

Cranach is a son of Coronach, a son of Hurry On. That gets you another Matchem line, but it also is the damsire line of Heraldik.

Roi Dagobert was exported to North America and is a very useful line here in sport because we have so few connections to the great French horses.

Round Table was a son of Princequillo, who was by Prince Rose and a very sound and very, very good race horse in North America. He's a line to be cherished.

What makes this pedigree especially interesting is the concentration of lines to St. Simon. The inbreeding to Sicambre, of course, but the number of lines to the Prince Rose sons farther back, is impressive.

To add to the excellence of this horse for sport, he is tail female to Lady Josephine through Lady Juror. This may be the greatest dam line for sport in the modern era. You don't want me to write a book about Lady Josephine and her daughters, but one was Mumtaz Mahal and the other very great one was Lady Juror, who was the dam of Fair Trial and Sansonnet, among others.
This horse ought to be able to jump out of his skin.

 

[vineyridge]

Correction--Miner's Frolic has Miner's Lamp top and bottom, but Miner's Lamp only has Wild Risk through High Top.

To my thinking, the only thing this pedigree lacks to make it perfect is a close up strain of a Herod line sire. When I say close up, I mean in the first five generations--and these days that usually means a Tourbillon descendant.

Also need to add the North American Relic son Olden Times to lines that are influential in sport.

 

[vineyridge]

Meant to ask--what sport is he being used in?

 

[criso]

That's fantastic - that's so interesting.

I've had some soundness issues with him but fingers crossed they are now behind us and continueing his education.

Plan is to do a bit of everything but my love is cross country
He loves jumping and takes every opportunity to jump puddles, branches and plants out hacking, I'm told he has nice paces for dressage but we both struggle to stay awake in the school. I suspect he wouldn't be quite careful enough for straight showjumping, if you get the approach wrong he won't kill himself trying to clear it but he is still learning.


He's got a lovely canter (as soon as I felt it I knew I was going to buy him) and has a very confident laid back temperament though he can be opinionated.

However he turns out, he's one of those horses that just makes me smile when I ride them.

 

[hilly]

What a lovely pedigree *scrabbleskeyboard* . Heard from a reliable source, not the usual chinese whispers, that there's been some problems getting mares in foal to Robin this year so hope there'll be more like this boy around.

He (sire) just ticks all the boxes, both looks and pedigree-wise, so just very quickly to add to Vineyridge's in-depth analysis - love this pedigree. Not only the triple dose of Sicambre, which gives you the showjumping and dressage capabilities of the Sacramento Song line - think Shutterfly - but Mill Reef, Princequillo and Pardal too. Pardal was male tail line of Stan The Man who at La Biosthetique Sam's rate, added to the Shearwater full-brothers, is throwing down a real claim to be one of the top event horse sires of all time.

Echo the Lady Josephine 'lucky charm' influence though of course many pedigrees are great on paper, it's what the progeny actually do that count but this fellow is off to a head start.

 

[criso]

That would be a shame - I think he has enough progeny around to suggest it's a recent thing not an old issue. If stallions lose their fertility, is it likely to come back.

I'm away at the moment for work but I'll see if I can dig out a photo I have.

 

[vineyridge]

I just remembered that Sacramento Song is the grandsire of Paul Schockmoehle's dressage stallion Sandro Hit. Don't know how I forgot Pardal and Stan The Man.

Yet another correction
Miner's Frolic has Wild Risk top and bottom, but Miner's Lamp has him only once.

 

[criso]

As promised a couple of pictures of the boy in question.
In the first I think his head has a look of his sire.

Early attempt at a crosspole

And a recent one from July this year - remember when it was hot and parched.