Pelvic area pain....what next (long sorry!)

[YasandCrystal]

My horse has had so many issues in the 6 months of ownership:-

- he always had a stuffy choppy gait and looked like he had been ridden in draw reins. I had him worked on by an osteo (Gavin Scofield) who is very good and said his back muscles (lumbar area) were so tense he was surprised he allowed himself to be ridden - also found tightness in one shoulder.
- he was only ridden for a few weeks at walk - long and low to stretch his muscles
- he started displaying terrifically aggressive behaviour very early on - I mean really really nasty - biting kicking and striking
- I had him scoped for ulcers and yes low grade ones found - he was turned away and out on high fibre diet and gastrogard.
- I found out some history and he has been abused - accounting for his aggression
- also to say had some controvery here over the behaviour - I believed he had pain and other 'more experienced horse folk' said that I was acting scared and hence he was so aggressive toward me
- he has been off work since early January (then it had only been light work)
-I had an AC done and an iridology report and both confirmed a fall/old injury to right side stifle and pelvis out both sides. Put him on daily supplements of Devils Claw and Relax Me calmer. He said in the AC that he found ridden work too painful (very last time ridden he bucked so hard 4 times with my daughter on board - only walking around!). He is a very demonstrative horse and tells you what ***es him off!
- he hated being stabled (probably abused in one) and he kicked out the side wall in one of ours. This will have hurt his pelvis I am sure.
- he has gone onto summer grazing and he completely changed personality since. No threats no ears, no faces no biting - very loving - amazing!!
- a friend started working him daily 2 weeks ago and he has been really willing and keen - doing join up and general ground work - making him back up etc.
- He is still not moving right or freely (he has fab conformation and should move really well)
- I had a shaiatsu practitioner out who got very emotional working on him due to his sad past. She found pain in his pelvic region and said this could be a long haul
- I rang my supportive vet who said we could scan - but really could do with a lameness work up first to justify that. She knows of the iridology and shiatsu etc.
We have agreed on a pain trial of Danilon for a month and if that starts to work and he lets himself be touched all over again (meant to meantion he suddenly didn't want to be touched again after such a positive start with my friend). Then we would try a McTimoney practitioner to relieve him.
I don't actually care how long it takes to fix him, but I have the summer window for this experienced friend to work with him and I don't want her to stop now even if he is not to be ridden for months. I see this groundwork as mentally stimulating and quite necessary for him.
I am upset really because ideally I would want Gavin to continue to treat him given his reputation, but he is so popular he only holds clinics and I refuse to travel my horse for over an hour to get him treated, as this would imo potentially undo all the work done by Gavin. It's a dreadful route too and very bumpy.
Does this 'plan' sound feasible? Can anyone make any other suggestions or throw in advice experiences good or bad.

I so want to see this poor horse come right. I can't have him be in pain. I know some of it maybe that the ground is rock hard - he has done virtually nothing for 6 months except potentially irritate an old injury site through kicking the stable wall and now he is being worked albeit only on the ground 5 days a week. I am getting woodchip put down in the roundpen we use tomorrow to make it more comfortable . He is barefoot. Arghhhh.

A pimms and melt in the middle choc pudding for anyone getting this far!!!

 

[YasandCrystal]

bump anyone?

 

[TicTac]

I feel for you! It is such a shame that some people who really care for their horses are the one's who seem to have most problems, me being one of them.

How long have you had your horse and has he always been like it since you have owned him? In all honesty some horses will never be right and all the love and treatment in the world can't help them.

Have you thought about turning him away for a year, out to grass or certainly for as long as possible. Maybe he just needs time to heal. I was going to take my mare to Gavin last year before she was diagnosed and had the op for kissing spine. I might still see if I can get an appointment with him as I have heard he is very good.

I'm sorry but I'm not being of much help really other than to say that sometimes us owners are so keen to get our horses better in our desperation to ride that we don;t always give them enough time.

If he is insured then I would go through the whole lameness workup, scan, xray etc route to see if that throws up anything, other than that, I can't really make any more suggestions. Good luck though with what ever you do.

 

[Bojangles]

Did the AC pin point any areas of pain etc?? I used to have Gavin for mine a lovely chap just couldnt get down to the root of the problem untill I find my AC all Q's ending up with good and bad outcomes! Hope you mange to get it all sorted out soon.

 

[TicTac]

What is an AC?

 

[Box_Of_Frogs]

Ha ha, an AC is a witch doctor (or animal communicator if you believe in such things).

 

[alsiola]

Ha ha, an AC is a witch doctor (or animal communicator if you believe in such things).

As is an iridologist.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Thanks for your replies, iridology is I believe a science and used for humans and animals alike. It looks at the markings in the eyes and each relate to different body area very much along the lines of the meridians in acupunture, reflexology etc.

I must say that the communication, the iridology and Gavin Scofield ALL found the same - that the horse has an old injury/stiffness around the right pelvis. Funny that!

My horse is rising 6 years old - I have had him since September. He has done very very little with us since then - just long and low ridden work only in walk and nothing since January.
As for history - I have managed to find out most of his sad and sorry tale and I know for sure he was abused ridden and on the ground and started too young at 3 yrs old. I am never going to get the whole truth though let's face it since he has been abused. He is extremely well bred, hence so much was expected of him.
I am reluctant to turn him away completely as he had this dreadfully aggressive temperament and now he seems to be trusting us I believe that some reinforced groundwork is imperative as long as he his not being forced to trot or do anything to cause him pain.
My vet said that yes she could go the lameness work up route and then scan etc. I wouldnt have steroid injections in the spine if it came to that, but the shockwave treatment sounds good.
I suppose I just want a prognosis from those with experience of pelvic related problems.

 

[soulfull]

To be totally honest I don't understand why you haven't already had the lameness work up?
so that would be what I would do

Sounds like a lot of love and money has been spent on him I hope you do manage to help him

 

[oscarwild]

I'm sorry to hear about your horse and what he has been through.
He sounds alot like my last horse. He had been badly treated and had some behaviour issues resulting from this. But after he was turned out 24/7 and with herds of horses these issues got much better. And he also had a bad spell of health including a plevis issue.
He had a misbalance in his pelvis which my physio said had come from him chipping a piece of pelvic bone off as a youngster and the muscles never developed. We worked through this and he got better with specific exercises the physio gave me. Around 6 months later my horse escaped out the field due to the conditions my previous yard put my horse under and he fell on landing. Ended up on 4 months boxrest due to a eye ulcer and he also inserted shoulder blade into his ribcage and also upset his pelvis all over again. The shoulder blade and pelvis weren't discovered until he came back into work. (As he never ever showed pain)
the shoulder was sorted and we moved yards once his boxrest was finished.
He came back into work after a spell of turnout to teach him to be a horse again (didnt come off boxrest well) and after some major gut issues were treated (vet reckons from same accident as he did a good job on himself) After a month or so he started misbehaving badly and vet came out. Thought it was his pelvis and got physio back out. We did walking work for 6 weeks and then tried to bring in gentle trotting work. But after a day of gentle trotting work he went mad again. Contacted physio who said contact vet before she comes back out incase a danilion trial was needed. So a did a short danilion trail and he was transformed. He did walk, trot and canter and was the best he had been for a long time. Physio came out and said def pelvis and did more things and vet wanted to scan him to see what was the problem. So he was retired to the field for a few months as I was waitin to hear from insurance about scan. During this time saddle was checked again and physio did a few more things with him. but while we were waiting for insurance he went dramatically downhill and his backend went. He lost his coordination and I felt the time had come to put him to sleep . As the painkillers had stopped taking effect and insurance was dragging there heals. So in December my 7 year old boy was PTS but it was his time to go.

Sorry I didnt have a good outcome on a pelvic issue but I have known many horses who have pulled through fine.
I wish you all the luck and hope you get to the bottom of your horses pain.

 

[Bubbles]

OP so many of us have been in the same boat as you, that's of no comfort to you though I'm sure The horse is obviously much happier living out, I'd stick with this for as long as possible - sounds safer for you as well - but I would get a full lameness work up done, if you belong to a decent equine practice and you're happy then let them do it, otherwise insist on a referral. I know you say you don't mind how long this takes, but surely you need to know if the problem(s) is fixable before you're emotionally and financially drained and potentially still left with a miserable horse... Good luck.

 

[EQUISCENE]

To be totally honest I don't understand why you haven't already had the lameness work up?
so that would be what I would do

Sounds like a lot of love and money has been spent on him I hope you do manage to help him

^^^ Totally agree cannot understand why you dont just get him worked up/scanned and treated by a vet!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

iridology is I believe a science

A pseudo-science.

I wish you lots of luck in helping him.

I know that you aren't keen on turning him away, but if you make no progress it would then be worth doing.

ETA.

Totally agree cannot understand why you dont just get him worked up/scanned and treated by a vet!

Sorry, I missed this. Do get him looked at by a Vet.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Very true Soulful and Bubbles, I suppose I am holding back on the lameness work up, because the vet warned that for this he really needs to show up lame. He is stiff and choppy and was a little footy in front as he is barefoot and the ground as we all well know is very hard. I will attach a vid for you below, one I believe of him moving quite well before he possibly reignited this old injury and one of him doing groundwork now and looking stiff.
As I said he has always had a stuffy choppy gait with snatchs of really free movement, but only once has he actually appeared properly lame behind and that was in the snow when I suspected he slipped in the field.

The other thing (understandably I hope to you all) is that this horse was just so aggressive I cannot put accross to you in words the relief and pleasure I now feel from being able to approach and stroke him and let him sniff my hair with no fear of being injured. He was that nastily violent to me and everyone. This is VERY new and knowing what a sensitive horse he is I don't want to subject him to being prodded and poked and sedated at the vets for a lameness work up. My vet understood that completely.

He is insured I will get him scanned probably as my preferred option after this Danilon trial, if McTimoney therapy doesn't help or that the practitioner can tell me they cannot treat him. I am in full consultation with my vet - they have followed his progress with great interest; they know what he was like - he is the most aggressive horse they have ever treated. My vet also said that the Danilon trial was a good idea as I would need to have done other things to work up and justify a scan. I don't want to unnecessarily cost my insurance anything neither do I want to unnecessarily stress my horse after his very terrific improvement in humour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nSILrRvf1U&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky_nuK25FOI&feature=related

 

[Bubbles]

I don't understand your vet's take on him needing to be lame: horses that aren't showing obvious lameness are taken in for work ups all the time to get answers to their various behavioural issues. Am willing to bet that your horse once nerve blocked would show up as being bilaterally lame behind. He's already showing you a gait abnormality (the stuffy shortness you mentioned), he looks far from right to me in the round pen video. I do understand the not wanting the prodding and poking, but resolving the problems (if possible) could transform this horse's life. For what it's worth I had the most behaviourally challenged horse worked up he coped absolutely fine.

Without trying to sound ultra patronising, please please please ask your friend doing the ground work to wear a hard hat if this horse has a history of serious aggression, it's just not worth the risk.

 

[YasandCrystal]

I don't understand your vet's take on him needing to be lame: horses that aren't showing obvious lameness are taken in for work ups all the time to get answers to their various behavioural issues. Am willing to bet that your horse once nerve blocked would show up as being bilaterally lame behind. He's already showing you a gait abnormality (the stuffy shortness you mentioned), he looks far from right to me in the round pen video. I do understand the not wanting the prodding and poking, but resolving the problems (if possible) could transform this horse's life. For what it's worth I had the most behaviourally challenged horse worked up he coped absolutely fine.

Without trying to sound ultra patronising, please please please ask your friend doing the ground work to wear a hard hat if this horse has a history of serious aggression, it's just not worth the risk.

Ok I will speak to my vet again, but maybe it's because he is not being ridden at the moment. Would that make a difference with a lameness work up? Don't mention behaviour - my insurnace and I believe many others now will cover nothing under 'behaviour'. The wording has to be so careful.
Point taken re hat - my friend does normally wear a hard hat - I can only think that she is not due to his immense change in attitude.

 

[Bubbles]

Nope, I had to stopped riding mine before he went in for his work up because he was too damn dangerous!! Yes ideally you'd want him working and correctly muscled etc., but if he's too unsound/batty you can't possibly achieve that. Agree re the behaviour, ridiculous when all the horse can do to tell you something is wrong is to modify his behaviour maybe your insurance company could provide a corporate pad and pen so he could write down what hurts and where...

Good luck, not an easy situation to be in at all.

 

[foxy1]

He looks bilaterally lame in front; I would suspect there is a problem in his feet as he is toe landing.

I think if you nerve blocked the feet you would see a different horse; go to your vet he is certainly lame enough to investigate!

 

[YasandCrystal]

He looks bilaterally lame in front; I would suspect there is a problem in his feet as he is toe landing.

I think if you nerve blocked the feet you would see a different horse; go to your vet he is certainly lame enough to investigate!

ok thanks Foxy. He was footy in the vid as his left fore hoof had broken off and he was sore after hubby trimmed him.

I will update. Thanks everyone

 

[TarantuLove]

All I can say is *big hugs*

one of my horses has pelvic problems and it is nothing but frustrating when you're trying to help them!

 

[YasandCrystal]

Thank-you Tarantulove. I do feel positive that we will get there with him, it's just this tightrope walk due to his abused past and positive change now - it makes me favour a sofly approach rather than blazing in expecting something dire and maybe setting him back temperament wise again. I need to let the vet decide as she knows the horse well.
I need him to be calm and giving temperament wise to enable any kind of effective treatment. Actually maybe the Danilon will facillitate that as he will hopefully be pain free on that.
I have had a dreadful back/sciatica myself the last few days (how bizarre is that) and I am getting first-hand now how he must feel. It's just dreadful!!

 

[TarantuLove]

what I did a few years back on recommendation of the vet was give him danilon for a month whilst working him regularly. The danilon reduced his pain, and I was able to build up correct muscle to help support his pelvis and keep everything in place

 

[YasandCrystal]

what I did a few years back on recommendation of the vet was give him danilon for a month whilst working him regularly. The danilon reduced his pain, and I was able to build up correct muscle to help support his pelvis and keep everything in place

Yes this is along the lines I was thinking. We are in no rush to ride him and he is not well muscled having been out of work for some 6 or so months now. Thanks again.

 

[foxy]

You need to be aware that your insurance company may not pay for treatment if either the problem has been there for over 12 months or you have renewed your insurance since you have had problems. Your horse sounds similar to mine, mine recently had a full lameness check and full body scans. He has problems in his sacarollic joint and I am now in the process of bringing him back into work after treatment. My ins company will pay for treatment for 12 months from the date the problem was first seen (this is not the date your vet first saw them the date you realised there was something wrong) So what I am trying to say is if you want to have the scans done you need to do it sooner rather than later

 

[dressagecrazy]

He is such a lovely horse, I really like him. Have you got him on Danilon now? Is it making any difference to his gait?

He actually looks lame in both of the vids to me it is more subtle in the first vid in the field but it's there. Looks like nearside hind to me.

Me personally I would be going down the lameness workup route. They do not need the horse lame, in fact you could just show the vids to them. Me personally I would be getting him reffered to a lameness specialist asap. He really is a lovely horse, I hope you get to the bottom of his problems.

Without getting at you, I mean this in a nice way. Do you really think he should be doing any work ATM? He seemed to be really struggling with those poles & the trot/canter work. If he is in pain of any kind it really is not worth breaking his spririt by continuing to work. I can tell by the vids he's a lot like one of my boys sensitive with a nasty past. Get him checked out properly & then once you've got the all clear, get cracking with him he will be happy & ready to work then.

 

[Danny Vet]

Have you had a proper lameness work up done yet? How old is your horse?

 

[YasandCrystal]

He is such a lovely horse, I really like him. Have you got him on Danilon now? Is it making any difference to his gait?

He actually looks lame in both of the vids to me it is more subtle in the first vid in the field but it's there. Looks like nearside hind to me.

Me personally I would be going down the lameness workup route. They do not need the horse lame, in fact you could just show the vids to them. Me personally I would be getting him reffered to a lameness specialist asap. He really is a lovely horse, I hope you get to the bottom of his problems.

Without getting at you, I mean this in a nice way. Do you really think he should be doing any work ATM? He seemed to be really struggling with those poles & the trot/canter work. If he is in pain of any kind it really is not worth breaking his spririt by continuing to work. I can tell by the vids he's a lot like one of my boys sensitive with a nasty past. Get him checked out properly & then once you've got the all clear, get cracking with him he will be happy & ready to work then.

Hi I completely agree with you about the work - he is not being worked any more. The only thing we are still doing is daily groundwork handling, but NO pole or trot work now, so just walking and backing up and some clicker work. I cannot stop the daily handling work - believe me when I tell you that this horse was that aggressive that few would go near him let alone lead him or work with him.
He has started to trust so the handling to me is absolutely vital and my friend really now is doing no more than he would be doing in the paddock walking about. I have had a woodchip surface put down now in the roundpen so the ground is more comfortable.

I am getting the Danilon today. Thats a good idea re the videos. I will ring my vet this morning to discuss. At the very least I want my vet to view the videos and then come and look at him a week into the Danilon. I assume his gait should improve to some degree once pain is removed, however I also expect it still to be short as the muscles will be shortened and tense from compensating for the time they have been.
I don't know if I mentionned it but he did kick out the sidewall of an internal barn stable which was held in with 6" nails, I believe this made any problem worse.

Thanks mll re the insurance advice. I will get my vet to speak to my insurance company in that case just to make sure that we keep within the timescales.

I really appreciate everyone's replies and advice. I want this lovely deserving horse to come right, so he is pain free and happy.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Have you had a proper lameness work up done yet? How old is your horse?

No I haven't Danny. I will ring my vet this morning and discuss everyone's advice. Maybe he can go to the vet's and actually get some treatment following a workup. I like the sound of the shockwave treatment, but have not looked into how effective it is.
I think the Danilon trial will show at the least whether or not he is in pain and I suspect that he is. I am sure the insurance company (I seem to recall the vet said this) will want to know that this is the case as a minimum to fund treatments.

 

[Danny Vet]

Cool, glad he's booked in for a proper work up. It's often cheaper to go to vet first and then if necessary they can refer you to physio or whatever treatment is necessary. If you get too many other people involved it can waste a lot of time and money and you end up weeks down the line out of pocket and no further forward. Good luck, hope it goes well!

 

[YasandCrystal]

A quick update - my horse is now on Danilon - he had 2 sachets yesterday and again this morning and HUGE difference in temperament and he was on his toes - clearly indicating he was in pain before and he was happy to move.

My vet is reviewing the many videos I have of him with his stiff movement and she is coming to have a feel of his back, which he will hopefully allow now being painfree - on Tuesday.

Plan is for him to go for scan to Newmarket once I am back from holiday in 10 days or so time. I am calling insurance company today to advise them.

Thanks for all your advice (vet made me laugh and said that she would be laughed out of Newmarket if she said he was being referred for Pelvic problem on basis of shiatsu practitioner, iridologist and AC - lol!!!).
I know you are right - that this is the correct route to go now.

If he doesn't have a pelvic problem I will eat my very large sunhat! I will post an update I promise.