People with navicular horses - how did you find it?

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skewby

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I am (hopefully) jumping way ahead of the gun here...but I have searched this forum and clearly a lot of you know an awful lot about this disease/syndrome/condition. Can you tell me what you think of my situation please? Also if you think it might be something else? (I am ringing vet first thing in the morning but doubt there is any point their coming out for a week - will explain why below).

I have felt, in my heart of hearts, that my horse has not been "right" since mid/late August. He has not been unsound. He has not been unhappy. But he has, not been HIMSELF. If that makes sense.

I've had a busy summer so at first I attributed it to, he must have picked up a virus out cubbing (cos he coughed once, and was living out 24/7) so I gave him time off. Then I gave him more time off to recover. Then he still didn't feel quite right to me. So I gave him more time off, and attributed it to the weather turning cold and very rainy, and him being cold. Then I attributed it to no grass. Then to him sprouting a big coat. Etc etc. You get the picture!

Oh and please noone think, I didn't want to get the vet - I have them out like a shot. It was just such an almost imperceptible difference...so next to nothing...I didn't really know what to actually say to a vet, had I got one out!

Anyway. Yesterday I clipped him out, this morning went for a hack out. He was beside himself with joy to be going out and was his usual forward going self.

3 stumbles, and one full on nasty fall and two grazed knees later...I brought him home in tears (yes wet and despicable I know. But I just realised that I've worried myself sick about this horse for a couple of months now. And him going down, on good ground, when working through from behind beautifully, is simply Not Right by any stretch of the imagination. If you will, I finally had my proof).

So. Being an overprotective mum, I have diagnosed navicular. Unfortunately the big stumble left him with a badly grazed and swollen knee. Which means it's pretty pointless calling the vet out tomorrow. Though I shall give them a call and book them for next week.

What do you guys think? I have an excellent farrier, I did switch away from him a year or so ago and big lad did begin to fall over, but when I looked at his feet I had grave concerns and got his old farrier back. Problem solved.

This horse does not stumble. He is a fabulous hunter and is like a cat and stays upright over any ground. He almost feels like, his feet are numb and he's not entirely sure where they are.

He is the navicular prone type; suffolk x, huge front end. I have worked hard to get him off his forehand and he does go beautifully now, but the basic conformation is always there. Also he was a stow fair job and came to me at 4 years old with bog spavins. So I can't ever be sure he wasn't laced to a cart as a yearling and hammered. Or, just have a natural disposition towards arthriticky type changes.

Thoughts please peeps? Have sacked my diet tonight and just opened the wine. This is my horse of a lifetime. All advice hugely appreciated xxxx

Oh and P.S. No offence meant whatsoever but I could do without any barefoot fanatics jumping on me with this, just at the moment. Thanks xxxx
 
When my mum suspected a problem with her horse it was because he'd stopped jumping - a change in behaviour I guess which caused concern. He was diagnosed with navicular which was attributed to being shod with shoes that were too small. This had happened for a year and then the farier had been changed and put shoes on that were 2 sizes bigger!

He went to Leahurst and had the suspensory(?) op - the one where they still have feeling in the foot - which went really well. Sadly a few months after box rest he bolted out of the stable and pulled his tendons - my mum had had enough of him being in pain and she had him pts. He was 17 when he died. I think he was 11 when diagnosed.

But that was aaaaaaages ago - he had the op in 1992 so heaven knows how many advances will have been made since then.

There are loads of horse that happily go on with navicular, I'm sure your chap will be ok - tip for the broken knees - intracite and derma gel - worked a treat when it happened to my mare. You wouldnt know she'd ever hurt her knees. also I gave her a good month to recover - sounds a bit long winded but worth it - she fell wehn she was 7 and is now a sprightly 17 year old with no arthritis in aformentioned knees. a friend had the same fall with her horse, was back on in a week and the horse was not fully sound for 2 years.

Good luck with yours xx
 
Thank you dessmont. Dyl is 12. I have just spoken to the vet and have booked him in wiht their leg specialist next Monday at 11. Had a chat with them and they agree the best way forward is to get him in so the vet can have a look, and nerve block/scan/x ray/whatever as he sees fit.

It may also be an old suspensory injury, or something else. But he has not been lame, he is sound. Just not, "right".

I am trying not to worry and not doing too well, lay awake from 2:30am! Until about 5 and now I am up late argh!!!

I hope the knee is not broken lol?! It's just a bit warm, and swollen, as to be expected. Whatever he will have this week off, I will not be getting back on him, no matter how he looks, before the vet has seen him next week.

I am just so worried as he's not the kind of horse that is going to do happy hacker, happily. Nor am I that kind of rider. But I am jumping ahead here and I just need to not worry until the vet has seen him. I do feel better for booking him in xx
 
I called my vet back in June as my lad had gone lame behind. Not hopping but definately not him. I was particularly worried as he'd already been on box rest for a couple of months at the end of 09 as he'd been kicked on a hack and had mysteriously gone lame behind then.

We took him in for a full lameness work up and when they nerve blocked the hind he went lame on his near fore so they nerve blocked that and he went lame on his off fore, once they nerve blocked that he was sound. They x-rayed all the lame legs and found nothing major behind but severe navicular in both fronts. I was very very shocked by the navicular diagnosis TBH as I wasnt prepared for any front leg issues! Looking back I can now see subtle signs, he had started rearing and refusing the 2nd or 3rd jump in a course and had been favouring one canter lead.. I felt so guilty that I didnt notice anything sooner but no-one else had either...

My insurance covers MRI so we scanned the fronts and he also had tearing to the DDFT. We treated it with tildren and cortisone injections plus remedial shoeing (I also investigated Rockley Farm but they said they didnt think they would be able to help him) but he wasnt coming sound and wasnt settling into being a field companion (his behaviour was getting more and more dangerous) so I made the decision to PTS. The vets asked if they could post mortem his feet and they told me that they couldnt believe he wasnt lamer as he was in a bad way. Makes me think what a genuine lad he was to just carry on going :(

On a happier note, my MILs horse was also diagnosed with Navicular after some very slight front leg lameness (he had been tripping etc) he has had no treatment apart from egg bars and is completely sound. I am sure that he will plod along for a fair few years yet quite happily so its not all bad, I was just unlucky with my lad :)
 
Thank you leg_end. I am so sorry for how it turned out with your boy but please do not beat yourself up for not noticing, as you did notice! And you did the right thing by him.

I have had a good chat with my instructor and she agrees him going down like he did yesterday is an indication he is definitely not right. I also chatted through with her my options based on what they find - my biggest, hugest fear is they find something that means no jumping, no galloping, just light work/hacking. I can't do that - but most of all, neither can he. She knows him as well as I do and straight away she said, if that is the prognosis, I get a second opinion, and if it is consistent, I "let him go", as she put it. The fact is this horse just would not settle to a quieter life, I know that. He adores his hunting, it would be horrendous to keep him plodding about, and also to probably watch him lose his place as herd boss.

Anyway hopefully it will not come to that but I feel better prepared at least, which is all I can be! Another thing my instructor pointed out is that it may be wind related - he's had a very occasional, very odd, dry cough for months. As in, he's coughed 3 times in total but hey, he's still coughed, when living out and never being a coughy horse! So there is a chance that something respiratory means he is tiring more easily, and stumbling because of that.

Anyway he'll have this week off now to heal his poorly knee, and next week we shall hopefully find out more. Having said that I turned him out this morning and he went charging off, bucking squealing and farting like a 3 year old, and sound as a bell, so who knows what on Earth is going on?! Horses eh?! Least I know he feels well in himself. Whatever it is, it does not entirely seem like pain, as he is his normal super bright self.
 
Will keep fingers crossed for you and hopefully its not Navicular. But even if it is MILs horse has been given the go ahead to continue as normal, she'll just have to be super careful with the ground (which we are anyway).

I completely understand what you say about your lad not coping with just light hacking - mine would have been the same but unfortunately we never even got to that stage - he has 3 days of walk and then went lame again :( But I woulod have had to make the same decision.

Fingers crossed for you - will keep an eye on this thread for updates :)
 
Hiya, skewby!

I as you know have fredy who has navicular disease, but we are back in work at the mo, and aiming for c.t. this weekend! I did decid to go barefoot route, purely because he had long toes, contracted heels and i felt he needed time for his feet to become how nature intended not the way they had been forced to become.

However im not pushing that route, but from all the research i have done, and trust me i have done hours upon hours...

First signs of navicular are the horse prefering to land slightly toe first, you have to look very carefully for this, its not always easy to spot, the horse may get a more short stride because of this. Yes tripping and stumbling can be a symptom, but fred never did this tbh.

I would personally seriously look at your shoeing, if he is tripping the breakover may need setting back more, bubs had been tripping a fair bit, and i changed my farrier who has put side clips and much shorter breakover and he is spot on now. What do his heels look like? are they contracted at all, how well are his frogs etc developed? Could you post some pics of his feet on here ther are many farriers im sure it would be worth posting for 2nd opinion. From what your saying skewb, i would strongly be looking at his feet.

xx
 
i had a big mare a few years back who wasn't lame but just wasn't 'right.'

my trainer and 2 vets looked at her and declared her sound but i still wasn't convinced so got my own vet who watched me lunge her for around 20 minutes and agreed she wasn't lame but wasn't totally right.

we took her in to have scans and x-rays, took shoes off etc and right at the last minute my vet decided he thought it could be foot imbalance and we should try their remedial farrier before going down the expensive route of scanning and nerve blocks etc.

her feet didn't look bad, but after 3 sessions with the remedial farrier she was 100% correct and felt so much better so we never went down the diagnostic route (thank you ungreedy vet :))

i then moved area and changed farrier to my current one who kept her totally sound (and free from the frequent absesses she suffered before) shod and barefoot for the next few years until she was sold.
i am also much more clued up about what to look for in feet and farriers whereas before i didn't honestly pay too much attention.

i would definitely look at the feet but please don't worry yourself and convince yourself it is navicular just yet
 
Thank you leg_end that's really kind. Yes I've got a bit ahead of myself I know, could be anything! But it's something that's for sure :(

Daise I should have thought of you! Yes I know what you mean, I am not against barefoot at all I just used to have a natural neighbour next to my horse (if ya knows what I mean ;)) and she just got right up my nose with her evangelism after she took her navicular horse barefoot. The horse was sound for a while but is not now, no longer at our yard so unsure. I took mine barefoot shortly after I had him, farrier said it was a good idea as his feet are so good. He had no problem whatsoever and was not remotely footy, even though I was at a town yard at the time, hacking lots and far and he was doing tons of roadwork. I eventually put the shoes back on as he completely lost confidence on slippy ground! It got to the stage where presenting him with a hill (up or down) that was remotely muddy got a bigger and bigger reaction from him. Shoes back on, problem solved.

He is being shod tomorrow and my farrier is very, very good. His work is complimented by my vet's and also I made the mistake of going away from him on a friend's recommendation, I've been back with him a year or so and he's just getting big lad's feet right again. He explains carefully what he is doing and what the other guy did wrong (carefully not putting him down tho, lol). I am half scared the other fella did some damage. He is being shod tomorrow and yes I will happily get pics for you, freely admit I find the whole topic a bit much! Having said that there is still correction going on from the mess the other fella made, so it may be misleading. But yes will post away and be very grateful if you'd take the time to look xxx oh and so glad to hear Fred is going well, YAY!!! :)

Milltiger ditto to you, thank you so much for that and yes would hugely appreciate your input on his tootsies. I shall get photos tomorrow.

And you are so right there is no guarantee whatsoever that this is the case! One thing that does point away from navicular is that the horse is just so damn happy and full of life in himself. When I tacked him up yesterday he was bashing the door with impatience because I was taking too long to put my hat and spurs on. Cheeky monkey. But that's the horse he is - loves, loves, loves his work. Hates being out of work. Naps AWAY from home (if you get me - not true napping just aw mum, do we have to turn back ALREADY??). Hehe he is a diamond. Before the stumbling yesterday he was bucking with excitement through the fields, in walk. Lol. When he went down we were only in walk or trot, not sure which now, but he was bounding along so forward he actually skidded on his knees/side for quite a way, hence the good bash to his knee. Just seems to make it harder really that the horse is so full of the joys, yet I don't feel it's right or safe to get on him just now. Never mind, I shall just try and not worry until next Monday. And yes of course I will update on here. Thank you all so much it is hugely, hugely appreciated, I can't think about much else truth be told xxxx
 
Thank you Leg_end that's really kind, I appreciate it. Watched horse belting round field, sound as a bell and very happy, and wondered if I'm overreacting. I just don't know what to do!! But after deciding not to take him (and to get saddler and back lady in instead - will still get both in, he is due) I have decided to go...and just be very clear with the vet as to what I think and want. ARGH horses!!! :( xxxx
 
sorry to hear of your troubles. my horse is currently being treated for navicular along with kissing spines and bone spavins. he was lame on both front feet on the lunge, very noticable lame (under vet examination. he stumbles every now and then but the last straw was a ride on the beach where he stopped and refused to move forward! saddler came out and said saddle was slightly tight but wouldnt cause that reaction. he later had bone scans which showed up his naviculars and then had x-rays which confirmed he had navicular. he is on navilox drug and i use magnetic bell boots aswell to increase the blood flow. he has been off work for 5 months and came back into work end of august and has been in walk work since then. he was re assessed last week and the vet is amazed with his improvement so his workload is aloud to go up. get a full lameness work up done and go from there. it took 4 months for me to get a diagnoses more because of other problems stopping him from going to horspital but the vet wanted to try abit of field rest and danilon and long reining. did a few nerve blocks and still nothing so when he came sound from a kick he recieved from my mare he went to horspital for his tests.
 
Charlie was diagnosed with navicular 18 months ago. He was wearing normal shoes and was shod every 6 weeks without fail. He also could not keep shoes on at all and was forever losing them, and would be lame and footsore within 24 hours.The history behind this diagnosis was that he for 2 -3 months before, wasnt quite right. Naughty in the school, bucking, rearing, kicking out, would not strike off on the left canter lead for love nor money. However, he was still happy to jump and hack out. Although when he hacked out he was always tripping. We were doing alot of dressage at the time so I put it down to boredom and changed his work pattern. He loves to gallop being an ex-race horse. So I took him up the mountain to see if he needed a good blast, he refused to gallop! Shortly after this he had a swelling to the fetlock to a hind leg and I thought we have done a tendon etc. Called the vet to see him. Vet had him trotted up and I will never forget the words, I think he is lame on both fronts! We then lunged him and it became obvious that he was lame on both front legs. He was booked in at their clinic for a full lameness work up and xrays. This diagnosed bilateral collapsed heels on the front and low grade changes to the navicular in both front feet. As you can imagine I feared the worst and thought that I was going to have a field ornament. I was given 2 options eggbar/heartbar shoes or barefoot. Charlie has typical tb crap feet, so knew that the shoes werent an option but opted for barefoot. He wears hoof boots to hack out in. He competes in showjumping, dressage all barefoot.
Good luck with getting him sorted, a diagnosis of navicular is not always the end of the world and I can only speak from my own experience.
 
Daisychain said:
Yeah go with open mind, and just remember vets always find something wrong ;)

Good luck xx
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My fear exactly bab - I mean ffs, if I had a full work up I'd have been shot years ago! At the mo my shoulder blade is hanging off lol!!

I have decided to go, and be Very Firm about where I am coming from with vet. It's the same guy who treated big lad when he did his suspensory '06, I do trust his judgment but he needs to be clear what my horse's job is (i.e., he's not Toytown) and not get too carried away! I HOPE I am up to it.

Thanks for your experiences too, helen and china. Can I ask you all, did the horses ever seem unhappy in themselves? My lad is in the best mood at the mo. Also not shy of belting round his field like a (very sound) loon. Surely navicular causes discomfort and pain, at some level?
 
on the ground he was good as gold. was always quirky. would have a spat around the field. always affectionate. feel bad really as he was soo good to me but i just didnt notice early enough he was in discomfort untill the ride on the beach where hed had enough.
 
How am I finding it with navicular....

Awful..my horse has been lame since march. Had MRI x rays the works , the vets can only put it down to bad bruising of the navicular and arthritic changes of navicular and coffin joint.
He had is coffin joint injected, didn't do a thing. And no point trying tildren etc...as no damage there.
The vet put on very small shoes in my opinion and wedges.

I managed to get my old farrier who shod him 18 months ago ( I re located area).
He said the new farrier has cut off my horses heel. He removed the wedges put on wide web shoes and he was sound that day Oct 1st. He stayed sound for 10 days but the last time I rode him he did trip and buck , so I pushed him into canter...he felt fine.
Next day he was lame again more so in the right fore, it was the left fore before...6/10 lame at the vets.
The vet has refused to prescribe Danilon unless the farrier put on the wedges...so shoes are off again and wedges back in after 2 weeks from last shoeing.
Nothing has improved yet, but my vet and farrier have a difference of opinion...and the vet isn't making himself available to my farrier for a discussion on how to get my horse sound. He only will leave him messages saying put the wedges on.
So in the mean time I am left crying...and hitting the wine also!

Also he is very happy enjoying his life and likes a brush or any attention...but he always has he likes a trip to the vet for attention any how.
G x
 
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GMR said:
How am I finding it with navicular....

Awful..my horse has been lame since march. Had MRI x rays the works , the vets can only put it down to bad bruising of the navicular and arthritic changes of navicular and coffin joint.
He had is coffin joint injected, didn't do a thing. And no point trying tildren etc...as no damage there.
The vet put on very small shoes in my opinion and wedges.

I managed to get my old farrier who shod him 18 months ago ( I re located area).
He said the new farrier has cut off my horses heel. He removed the wedges put on wide web shoes and he was sound that day Oct 1st. He stayed sound for 10 days but the last time I rode him he did trip and buck , so I pushed him into canter...he felt fine.
Next day he was lame again more so in the right fore, it was the left fore before...6/10 lame at the vets.
The vet has refused to prescribe Danilon unless the farrier put on the wedges...so shoes are off again and wedges back in after 2 weeks from last shoeing.
Nothing has improved yet, but my vet and farrier have a difference of opinion...and the vet isn't making himself available to my farrier for a discussion on how to get my horse sound. He only will leave him messages saying put the wedges on.
So in the mean time I am left crying...and hitting the wine also!

Also he is very happy enjoying his life and likes a brush or any attention...but he always has he likes a trip to the vet for attention any how.
G x
Click to expand...

This sounds awkward! while I have no doubt you vet has your horse's best interests at heart and is trying his best too, there are problems for the owners when the vets and farriers opinions clash.

Have you tried really talking to the vet calmly to explain your fears and worries? I would recommend that you try and get both you, the vet and farrier all at one appointment - ideally with the horse too!! to discuss the case and come to a good compromise to help the horse in the best way. My experience of vet-farrier clashes is that it is very stressful for all 3 parties and ends up in a mess if you can't all communicate together at the same time.
The vet and farrier may agree more than you and they think! :o

Once you've tried this, hopefully things will improve. If not, then rethink the situation...will you be staying with the farrier again full time or swop again once out of the woods. If this likely, it will confuse the issue again.

Oh, and don't forget it's the farrier that pick the shoe size IME, not the vet. we may request a certain type of shoe, e.g. wide webbed; bar; pads or wedges or not....I find wedges very useful in these cases, especially on those short on heel as it is, but they have to be placed properly....(farriers job!!:)) to work best, or I have seen secondary heel cruising and pain. In our clinics hands with multiple farriers we have good success with managing poss navicular cases like this.

I am also interested in why you mentioned Tildren would be no use? Is that due to your vets advice or your own personal feeling?

I would urge you to try the above suggestion - it may make the situation a whole lot easy to bear?

best of luck. :o

skewby said:
My fear exactly bab - I mean ffs, if I had a full work up I'd have been shot years ago! At the mo my shoulder blade is hanging off lol!!

I have decided to go, and be Very Firm about where I am coming from with vet. It's the same guy who treated big lad when he did his suspensory '06, I do trust his judgment but he needs to be clear what my horse's job is (i.e., he's not Toytown) and not get too carried away! I HOPE I am up to it.

Also not shy of belting round his field like a (very sound) loon. Surely navicular causes discomfort and pain, at some level?
Click to expand...
:D - good idea to discuss the exact work load of your horse. If you have a lower workload requirement, i.e. pleasure vs badminton, then he can adjust the investigation, treatment and prognosis to that remit so to speak. It is easier to manage expectations when we know what we have to aim to!

TBH in my opinion you may have jumped the gun a little diagnosing navicular so soon ;) but it is certainly worth involving your vet and then deciding the best course of action.

Navicular does carry a degree of pain, that is why lameness is seen. However, it is often characterised by a stumbling short gait when first brought out of the box or following rest, which improves during work. I would not be surprised to hear about horses still happy and belting around the field - adrenaline does wonders to mask pain as well!!

Good luck.

Daisychain said:
Yeah go with open mind, and just remember vets always find something wrong ;)
Click to expand...

:p

Imogen
 
GMR said:
How am I finding it with navicular....

Awful..my horse has been lame since march. Had MRI x rays the works , the vets can only put it down to bad bruising of the navicular and arthritic changes of navicular and coffin joint.
He had is coffin joint injected, didn't do a thing. And no point trying tildren etc...as no damage there.
The vet put on very small shoes in my opinion and wedges.

I managed to get my old farrier who shod him 18 months ago ( I re located area).
He said the new farrier has cut off my horses heel. He removed the wedges put on wide web shoes and he was sound that day Oct 1st. He stayed sound for 10 days but the last time I rode him he did trip and buck , so I pushed him into canter...he felt fine.
Next day he was lame again more so in the right fore, it was the left fore before...6/10 lame at the vets.
The vet has refused to prescribe Danilon unless the farrier put on the wedges...so shoes are off again and wedges back in after 2 weeks from last shoeing.
Nothing has improved yet, but my vet and farrier have a difference of opinion...and the vet isn't making himself available to my farrier for a discussion on how to get my horse sound. He only will leave him messages saying put the wedges on.
So in the mean time I am left crying...and hitting the wine also!

Also he is very happy enjoying his life and likes a brush or any attention...but he always has he likes a trip to the vet for attention any how.
G x
Click to expand...

how awkward! so am i reading it right that your horse HAS been diagnosed with navicular and the vet won't give you danilon? mine was on it even without knowing what he had but it was ovbious he was lame and in discomfort. when he was found to have navicular etc he bumped him up to two a day to make him more comfortable. im weaning him off them as he has improved but i will be using equine americas buteless double strenght to keep him comfortable so this may be an option for you.
from what i can understand (imogen may correct me on this) to reduce the pain on navicular you need to increase the blood flow to it. if you look at the x-rays you can see the widening of the blood vessels going into the navicular to try and increase the blood flow. if the vessels are wide to get more blood to the navicular it indicates their is a trauma/change to the navicular bone. this is how it was showed on my boys x-ray. my boy went straight onto navilox which has so far touch wood worked! i also use magnetic boots which may also help you. the magnets increase the blood flow. i will continue to use these once he is off the navilox (navilox is a powder drug) i am very lucky in that my farrier and vet are very good friends and work extremely well together. they are both present at his appointments including his x-rays so they could both see and they discuss what they want to do with his feet. if i were in your position, having read other experiences i would discuss things with your vet and if you still dont get what you are after seek a second opinion.
 
Picked up my old boys navicular just down to a feel when schooling him on smaller circles. He had some time off etc etc and things seemed to deteriorate a little more. I noticed he would take a short step or two out of his stable in the morning & eventually decided that I wasnt imagining things and rang the vet. Lunging on a hard surfice showed the extent off the lameness & nerve blocking plus x-rays confirmed changes. However, bar shoes to lift the heel and more consistent work worked wonders and soundness returned. As I tended to compete in Dressage I didnt feel that the continued strain of small circles was particularly fair on him so he is now with a friend (of a friend) doing unaffiliated stuff & having a lovely time, so even if it is Navicular it is not necessarily the end . Progress continues to be made in the treatments available so please dont be downhearted & I hope your horse is soon back to full form.
 
china said:
how awkward! so am i reading it right that your horse HAS been diagnosed with navicular and the vet won't give you danilon? mine was on it even without knowing what he had but it was ovbious he was lame and in discomfort. when he was found to have navicular etc he bumped him up to two a day to make him more comfortable. im weaning him off them as he has improved but i will be using equine americas buteless double strenght to keep him comfortable so this may be an option for you.
from what i can understand (imogen may correct me on this) to reduce the pain on navicular you need to increase the blood flow to it. if you look at the x-rays you can see the widening of the blood vessels going into the navicular to try and increase the blood flow. if the vessels are wide to get more blood to the navicular it indicates their is a trauma/change to the navicular bone. this is how it was showed on my boys x-ray. my boy went straight onto navilox which has so far touch wood worked! i also use magnetic boots which may also help you. the magnets increase the blood flow. i will continue to use these once he is off the navilox (navilox is a powder drug) i am very lucky in that my farrier and vet are very good friends and work extremely well together. they are both present at his appointments including his x-rays so they could both see and they discuss what they want to do with his feet. if i were in your position, having read other experiences i would discuss things with your vet and if you still dont get what you are after seek a second opinion.
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Thank you for your reply...
I tried to get vet farrier and me and horse together, unfortunately the vet said he was fully booked that day.
My referral vet never mentioned navilox..that sounds very interesting..thank you.
He apparently is one of the top vets in europe on lamness, but never mentioned any treatment other than wedge shoes. and yes they are saying my horse has navicular..but possibly just bruising of the navicular.
My farrier re put wedges on, he called me today and asked if my horse is any better, he does care passionately about him, He is no better.
I have got magnetic boots for my horse.
The ref feral vet is back in the country on tuesday , so I will see what he thinks and if he can mediate and speak to my farrier.! But my farrier is going to take the wedges off again in 2 weeks if nothing improves especially as the local vet hasn't spoken to him.
 
ImogenBurrows said:
This sounds awkward! while I have no doubt you vet has your horse's best interests at heart and is trying his best too, there are problems for the owners when the vets and farriers opinions clash.

Have you tried really talking to the vet calmly to explain your fears and worries? I would recommend that you try and get both you, the vet and farrier all at one appointment - ideally with the horse too!! to discuss the case and come to a good compromise to help the horse in the best way. My experience of vet-farrier clashes is that it is very stressful for all 3 parties and ends up in a mess if you can't all communicate together at the same time.
The vet and farrier may agree more than you and they think! :o

Once you've tried this, hopefully things will improve. If not, then rethink the situation...will you be staying with the farrier again full time or swop again once out of the woods. If this likely, it will confuse the issue again.

Oh, and don't forget it's the farrier that pick the shoe size IME, not the vet. we may request a certain type of shoe, e.g. wide webbed; bar; pads or wedges or not....I find wedges very useful in these cases, especially on those short on heel as it is, but they have to be placed properly....(farriers job!!:)) to work best, or I have seen secondary heel cruising and pain. In our clinics hands with multiple farriers we have good success with managing poss navicular cases like this.

I am also interested in why you mentioned Tildren would be no use? Is that due to your vets advice or your own personal feeling?

I would urge you to try the above suggestion - it may make the situation a whole lot easy to bear?

best of luck. :o

Thank you so much for your reply. My vet referal vet said it is no point using it , My farrier is not going to change he shod my horse all his life apart from the last 18 months , and now has come to me to help, he cares very much about getting my horse right. The vet as you say I think cares too, but the seem to both be full of testosterone and wont back down. I tried to get them all together this week , but the vet was too busy apparently, maybe true.
But next shoeing maybe I can get us all together. If not the farrier will have those wedges off!!
I will try getting hold of my referal vet next week as he is back in the country.. I bet you know him ! But I don't like to mention him on here. And hopefully he can try and help the situation.
My farrier put on nice big shoes but the farrier at the vets put on the small shoes..
Thank you again,
G x
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last week mine was due for his fronts to be shod and i asked my vet if he wanted to re assess him and decided what to do with his shoes as he had aluminium straight bars on which he went very well in but he kept pulling them off and damaging his hoof to the point where the farrier will have nothing to nail onto. my farrier and vet spoke with eachother and unfortunatly the date and time they could both do i couldnt so i left him in and left a lunge line outside, vet went down a lunged him etc then met farrier down their and discussed shoes and rang me through out. hes having those glue on imprint shoes next time.
im still fairly surprised they didnt give you danilon or bute to make him more comfortable as the shoes will change his way off going and will initially make him uncomfortable untill he adjusts and if it is bruising then the danilon helps with inflamation.
i would ring your vet and say what days and times can you do and speak to your farrier and say you want them both down their to discuss it as you want to get this nipped in the bud now.
i asked about navilox on here as i hadnt heard about it before and it works for some and not others but so far it has worked for him. its not cheap at just under £100 a small pot! but he is on a course of it. he was on 3 scps 2 X daily for 3weeks. now hes on 3 scps 1Xdaily for 3weeks. then hel be on it every other day. my vet didnt even mention the option of tildren as he ovbiously didnt think it was for him and he has already has his spine and hocks injected with cortisone. but i think managment of the feet is the most important thing and probably the most expensive bit. these imprint shoes are over £100 a pair but then i claim for them on the insurance. feel free to pm me with anything. il be happy to exchange photos of feet and treatment etc.
 
Thank you china for your advice.
I did get 20 days of Danilon only after the farrier agreed to put on the wedges. But I will speak to the referal vet when he is back on tuesday. He said tildren wasnt suitable for my horse. The cortisone injecton to his coffin joint never worked , so they didnt think anything else would work.
But I never mentioned or even new about Navilox untill you have mentioned it to me on here.

My horses feet my farrier says are growing very fast, He called me yesterday to ask how my horse is going... so not sure if that means they are good or not...but it gives him enough to work with, and he has only lost 3 shoes in 11 years.

After tuesday I should have more news, and Hopefully sort out a meeting of minds at the next shoeing!!

I feel a bit better after every ones help and advice on here...thank you.
 
ImogenBurrows said:
TBH in my opinion you may have jumped the gun a little diagnosing navicular so soon ;) but it is certainly worth involving your vet and then deciding the best course of action.
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Imogen thank you and I'm so glad you have pointed this out...I have Good News. I hope!

I got my instructor over yesterday to have a thorough look at him, and me, and a sit on. I hopped on and as soon as I did, she said "what are you doing with your back?". I have not had lessons for ages, have been hacking about, and also have put on weight (gave up smoking!). Anyhoo...what I have been doing, which I did not do before, is hollowing my back slightly...causing my ribcage to come forwards, and, yes, you've guessed it...loading his front end!

With neutral spine back in place...we had one of the best lessons of our lives, he went beautifully. Did some of his best ever work, was forward and fabulous. Not navicular-y at all!

To check, I hacked him out this morning, same route as last week (without the quick detour home :D) and he did not stumble once. Even dropped my reins for half a mile. Fine. Felt totally back to his old self.

And the biggest thing that convinced me - had a canter up a big hill on the way home, and had to work hard to pull him up. That's my horse!! It was him dropping into trot from canter that had really concerned me initially. He's always been sooo forward, it was this that made me panic. But today, and yesterday (once I was fixed), he was back to his old self.

So I am not going to take him to the vet tomorrow - for the simple reason, he's 12-13 now, they'll find SOMETHING. I am going to suck it and see. But I am very, very relieved.

Should have known something was going on with me as an old back injury has flared up dreadfully recently - my osteo is fixing it but did say that it was putting weight on that will have done it - weight goes on in front, pulling the ribcage forward and down...and we arch to compensate.

Opening meet is in 2 weeks so I shall continue fittening work ready for it, always keeping a close eye of course. But fingers crossed it was overprotective mother (and dodgy rider) ME that was the problem. Not him!!

Thank you all so much for your help and advice and GNR I do wish you the best of luck with yours, you must be very worried. I hope you get it sorted xxxx
 
Good news so far for Skewby - I am pleased your repositioning has helped so much.

If you feel he is good now that's good reason not to further investigate at this stage, if the signs recur despite your position, then I probably would get your vet involved. :)

Imogen
 
With reference to information on Navilox.

I found this article and thought it may provide some back ground info on navicular disease for those interested. It also explains two different theories surrounding the cause of the disease - there may be more under research too...as such we are very much still learning about the disease which is why there seem to be many different approaches and theories surrounding treatments.
http://www.novickdvm.com/navicula.htm

However, Navilox is a drug called isoxsuprine. This is a vasodilator (it widens the blood vessels) and if we refer to the above article's description of the vascular/ischaemic theory on causes of navicular then it should help alleviate symptoms.

The vascular theory simply put says blood vessels around the navicular constrict in some horses which causes cell death and pain. The idea of giving Navilox would be to widen those vessels and restore "normal" or better blood flow to the affected areas.

the question is does it work in the horse? Several studies have found the drug to be beneficial, some have not. Some say giving this intravenously works but not orally. Some find orally works well.

My opinion is that the key take home message is that it is not a substitute for all the other treatments especially good farriery intervention. My experience is that some owners felt it helped. Some didn't. Personally I have found that the worst that happens by giving it is that is may not help and then you can choose whether to continue it. Don't expect it to be a wonder cure. It may help.

Personally I don't often use it any more, but then I don't often diagnose true cases of navicular. I would strongly advise anyone interested in the drug use for their horse to discuss it with their own vet with specific reference to their own case.

Like most diseases, navicular is probably, in my opinion, multi-factorial in cause - i.e. both theories and may be others contribute to the symptoms shown. I believe this because it would explain why some horses respond well and some don't.

Hope that helps.
Imogen
 
ImogenBurrows

Navilox seems to be having a bit of revival round our way.

Wasn't prescribed when mine was diagnosed with soft tissue damage a couple of years ago but the same practice has been prescribing it alot recently for horses with similar injuries i.e suspected soft tissue damage after nerve blocking indicating the problem is in the navicular area but no changes showing on an xray. In one case soft tissue damage had been confirmed by MRI. The only one that improved also had a change of farrier who improved his foot balance so it's difficult to say whether the navilox contributed.
 
Imogen that article is interesting but there is not a word in it about the number of navicular diagnosed horses that are coming sound by removing their shoes and ceasing all drug/shoeing/surgical treatments.

I assume/hope that it was written before this information was widely available because it's looking more and more likely that for many of these horses no "treatment" whatsoever is necessary if the owner can go barefoot with the horse. I speak from a position of owning a horse with lesions on the navicular bone, bilaterally lame for over a year, treated with adequan, tildren and HLA bursa injections, shod with bar shoes, who has been sound ever since 11 weeks after I was given him and took off his shoes earlier this year. I am far from alone in achieving this kind of result with horses in the navicular syndrome spectrum and Rockley Farm, a commercial rehab yard, has not failed to radically improve the soundness of every single horse that has been sent there.


ps the navicular horse I had in 1985 had isoxuprine and it did diddly squat to help him
 
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