Perennial shoulders problem, Psoas muscles, and a breakthrough???

kerilli

kerilli

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So, ever since I started riding as a child I have always tipped forwards. As a kid instructors yelled "stop eating his ears" (yes, very helpful, thanks for that), later instructors have all said "shoulders", "sit up", etc etc. Unless I really concentrated on it I would tip forward again, to various degrees... very frustrating. nobody EVER said 'it's your (lower) waist area that's the problem...', we all saw the symptom not the root.
Had a bit of a lightbulb moment a month ago when video'd riding bareback - sitting totally upright, without effort or reminding. Hmmmmm....?!
So, it turns out that my psoas muscles have NOT been doing what they should have been doing, and my body has found other ways of managing - overactive outer-layer muscles instead of inner psoas, I think. Umm, overactive abs (explains the undeserved 6-pack maybe?!), hip extensors and rectus muscles (?!?!) have all been mentioned. i have no idea... i managed, so i couldn't see the problem.
i bought Zen and Horseback Riding (by Tom Nagel) on Kindle, it has a simple test for whether you're using your psoas or not (unsurprisingly, i wasn't) and exercises for working them. cool.
i'll repeat the test below if anyone wants to do it...
whether the underactive psoas are the reason for my chronically unstable pelvis, or vice versa, i have no idea, but at least now I know where a big problem stems from. i'm starting pilates asap, as soon as i'm free from nurse duty at the horsepital that is my yard at present.
so, anyone else who tips forward, who believes that their shoulders are the problem... maybe not, it's worth checking whether it is coming from much lower down, whether you need to sort out your psoas...
 
I have a under-active psoas (as in doesn't work at all) along with under active sartorius (sp) over active hamstrings (that do everything) and generally buggered knees and hip joints from incorrect muscle pathways! The joys. This is why hiking and falling in bogs is very bad for you! lol

I can give you lots of exercises from my physio to work on if you want, but the problem is you need to find out what what level you need to be working at. i.e. I'm at the bottom level where I can't even clench my butt cheek :o so have to do exercises that you would think would be really easy, but I find incredibly difficult if done correctly.

I'm wierd, I know. All the pysios at uni like to poke me :o

Oh also, an important thing to make sure you do it sit properly, i.e. not with legs crossed or legs in a W position as this stretches out the psoas more obv making it harder for you then to contract it and get it working properly again.
 
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I have tight psoas muscles too - look up psoas muscle stretches on-line - there are masses of them and they really, truly do make a difference!!!
 
I tip forwards, due to my spine/pelvis too. Pilates has really healped, as I've learned the "neutral" position which brings my pelvis into the right place and my shoulders automatically come back.
 
Interesting will try some of those stretches :)

I went to a physio last night, just to see if I am ok and even etc - figured I'd spent that much on my horse, I should get myself checked out.

He said I was obviously very flexible - can tuck head onto knees with legs straight - he said I was the most flexible person he'd seen in a year - basic yoga moves do pay off! :D

But also said I have a slightly winged right shoulder blade, ie it doesn't sit as flat as it should, and as my other one does - so I have some exercise to work on that.

I also plan on going to see a physio, who also has a mechanical horse, this lady to see how I am :)

http://www.personalbest.me.uk/
 
Would also recommend reading Mary Wanless Ride with your mind - she deals with the bio-mechanics of the rider in conjunction with the horse very well. Reading this helped me monitor & change my own position enormously (& yes, I also lean foward, but now have the tools to try & deal with it! Also do Pilates - cannot recommend enough)
 
Exactly the same problems (and comments!). Must admit I really need to crack on with the Pilates but sounds like that may also be a very interesting investigation, anything to stop hearing "sit up!"
 
Very interesting - I tip forwards too.

I had a biomechanics session recently, and found out lots about me - Including more firm diagnoses of various issues.

I probably have auto immune athritis, but I also have something called ligamentous laxity - and have been advised to start Pilates. Did my first class on Monday, and found my back & stomach muscles were very strong, but obliques/hip flexor/hip extensor muscles were all barely working!

Will be interesting to see how pilates helps my riding...
 
something the back lady (equine and human) who does pilates/rolfing etc in my area is always trying to point out is that a lot of things go wrong from the pelvis area. she will always start work round the pelvis before even looking at a shoulder problem (or anything else for that matter).
 
I too lean forward, but mine *seems* to stem from higher up (I don't even know where the psoas is :o ) because I have an overexaggerated muscle either side of my spine at approximately the bra line. Pilates did help, but not sure what the ultimate solution is. It's bad posture that started it, and riding *****ty nappy horses that made me hunker down into the safety position, driving them forward. Ironic for someone who was a pretty decent ballet dancer in my youth. Then when I straighten I end up with the winged shoulders (as someone said above) which a physio berated me for. I would really like it if someone could actually point me to where it all starts, and what I need to fix FIRST to make everything else fall into place!

<off to google psoas>
 
The test is, according to the book: lying on your back, stretched out with legs flat against floor, fingers resting lightly on tummy, slide your heels towards your bum along the floor (bringing knees up together).
Do your tummy muscles stiffen when you do that, or not?
 
wench said:
Not read replies... but have you thought about a pilaties DVD you could do at home?
Click to expand...

i've got one... but the trouble is, if you've been cheating and not realised it, i think you need a good instructor to check and correct you, at least a few times, to prevent further cheating. i managed fine before, i used other muscles to obtain the same results (apart from effortless-uprightness!), i really need help to stop that happening any more...
hopefully after a few sessions i can use the DVDs. :) :) :)
 
kerilli said:
The test is, according to the book: lying on your back, stretched out with legs flat against floor, fingers resting lightly on tummy, slide your heels towards your bum along the floor (bringing knees up together).
Do your tummy muscles stiffen when you do that, or not?
Click to expand...

Mine do - what does that mean?
 
I dont think your alone! After watching 'The Taming of Totilas' showing how free Edward Gal is in his hips i realised thats where i hold my body too tight causing the tipping forward and rounded shoulders. I rode a friends Trakkener and found I was bumping in canter because i hold the lower part of my body ( also have a wash board tummy) it was a wonderful but slightly odd experience to learn to let go of my hip/pelvis and relax which i find very hard indeed!

If i had the time i would love to go to pilates, would also like to find somewhere to have schoolmaster lessons on the lunge to focus on relaxation and position.
 
Absolutly facinating!
I wind up with hard stomach muscles with the test too (sigh, I thought it would be a good thing!), and have utterly awful hips for flexability. I thought it was simply that I wasn't trying hard enough and was rubbish! Shall get on with stretches and work pronto, if this could also get me trouping off to the physio less often to put a wonky pelivs back then I will be a very happy bunny lol!
 
now_loves_mares said:
I too lean forward, but mine *seems* to stem from higher up (I don't even know where the psoas is :o ) because I have an overexaggerated muscle either side of my spine at approximately the bra line. Pilates did help, but not sure what the ultimate solution is. It's bad posture that started it, and riding *****ty nappy horses that made me hunker down into the safety position, driving them forward. Ironic for someone who was a pretty decent ballet dancer in my youth. Then when I straighten I end up with the winged shoulders (as someone said above) which a physio berated me for. I would really like it if someone could actually point me to where it all starts, and what I need to fix FIRST to make everything else fall into place!

<off to google psoas>
Click to expand...

The psoas start quite high up, so could be causing the issue.

They are a hugely overlooked as being incredibly important to a good riding position. Biomechanics seems to be getting more popular though, which can only be a good thing :)
 
Have been working on this kind of thing in my last couple of lessons with Tina Sederholm, it has made an immense difference and the horses I'm riding are just dropping onto the bit effortlessly (most of the time!).

She has done a lot of work with Liz Koch who I believe is one of the top people for biomechanics and psoas release. (lots on google)

Ineresting moment the other day when the owner of the horse I was riding asked Tina why she wasn't correcting my rounded shoulders (dammit!) - Tina explained that both that and my tipping forward tendency (dammit again!) were coming from my pelvis so she was treating the root not the symptom. Point proved today when I managed to release & stabilise my pelvis and my upper body immediately stacked up perfectly and stayed there, & shoulders much improved. (Poor horse appreciated it too, best I have ever had him going, thrilled to bits)
 
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ok, so now I've tested and worked out mine don't do the job I am goign to ask what on earth they are??? I can't be the only one thinking that!
 
My stomach tensed up too (damn, thought it was a good thing!!)..... and I hunch when I ride..... and I always seem to have a flat toned stomach despite doing no sit ups or any other form of exercise.....

Very interesting as I've always had barked at me to sit up but just seem unable to!! How can I strengthen my psoas?!
 
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oh damn it - i too have mega tight stomach muscles when doing the test - I too thought this good and I do have biomechanic lessons! - I have RWYM coach and the 'bearing out' has really tightened stomach up - but also since doing this I havent had back pain (having previously had disc removal) - So kerilli how the hell do i get psoas to activate???????????? - especially when riding? - I am thinking that when i 'narrow my boards' (ride with mind speak) I should be activating psoas
 
this is what they look like:
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?hl=e...170&start=0&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:19,s:0,i:107

and there are lots of vids on youtube etc of how to activate them. my McTimoney Chiro showed me one exercise yesterday, not sure i can describe it safely though! i suspect a session or two at least of pilates or physio is prob a very good idea, gently working them under experienced instruction, i don't want anyone straining their psoas on my say-so!
btw, the reason they work when you're bareback is that they're the side-to-side stabilising muscles too... obv with a saddle i can cheat, but without, i can't.
just a bit of bareback riding definitely helps, you can feel the difference. i teach someone who has the same fault as me (tipping forward, pronounced lordosis) and one bareback session with 'talking about psoas' and she has improved a LOT and can really feel the difference...
i recommend the book too, exercises in there.
 
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