Permanent loan - wwyd?

[HashRouge]

Hi all, the collective wisdom of HHO would be very much welcome!

Some of you know I share a young Arab gelding. I almost bought him a year ago, but stepped away after he had a bout of unexplained lameness and his owner didn't want him to a have a 5 stage vetting (felt he wasn't fit enough). Anyway, I kept sharing him and have been riding him 2-3 times a week since then. His owner recently had a nasty accident and is facing some other health issues, which must have led her to consider how many horses she has as last week she asked me if I would be interested in taking my share horse on permanent loan. We didn't go into too many details but I think the idea is that she would essentially be "gifting" him to me.

The problem, is that due to Covid I am only working part time this year. It's a very long story, but essentially I was supposed to be going travelling this year until Covid put paid to that. I'm not sure how long this part time job will last, whether it will become full time eventually, or whether I will ultimately be able to take a gap year as planned. I also don't think that I would want this part time job to be permanent as I'm not sure how keen I am on it (though it's early days). Financially, I can only afford the upkeep of share horse (if he comes to live with me and my two retirees) by dipping into my savings. I have a good chunk saved up that was intended for my gap year, so I can afford it so long as I'm not part time indefinitely (I work in a profession where it is relatively easy to find work). If I ended up using my savings on his keep for 12 months, I would still have a good amount of my savings left. Certainly enough to fund a gap year if I still wanted one.

What I am finding really tricky, is knowing what is the right thing to do. I would ultimately still like to travel, so what would I do with share horse while I do that (my sister is taking the retirees)? But how long will it be before it is actually possible to do a proper gap year? Do I keep saying "no I can't have another horse/ buy a house/ move area" and putting life on hold because "I'll be taking a gap year soon"? What if I can't take my gap year "soon"? But is it sensible to use my savings to pay for a horse? What if I do struggle to find full time work? I feel very "uncertain" in all aspects of my life at the moment, in a way that I haven't since I left university, and I really don't know what to do for the best. I'm ever so fond of my share horse and I really love riding him, but I just don't know what is the right decision, so I would really welcome your thoughts. Please do be brutally honest - I won't be (too) offended!

 

[ycbm]

Sounds like it would complicate things far too much to me HR. And I'd be on an absolute no taking savings for day to day running expenses, but that's a personal choice.
.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Hi all, the collective wisdom of HHO would be very much welcome!

Some of you know I share a young Arab gelding. I almost bought him a year ago, but stepped away after he had a bout of unexplained lameness and his owner didn't want him to a have a 5 stage vetting (felt he wasn't fit enough). Anyway, I kept sharing him and have been riding him 2-3 times a week since then. His owner recently had a nasty accident and is facing some other health issues, which must have led her to consider how many horses she has as last week she asked me if I would be interested in taking my share horse on permanent loan. We didn't go into too many details but I think the idea is that she would essentially be "gifting" him to me.

The problem, is that due to Covid I am only working part time this year. It's a very long story, but essentially I was supposed to be going travelling this year until Covid put paid to that. I'm not sure how long this part time job will last, whether it will become full time eventually, or whether I will ultimately be able to take a gap year as planned. I also don't think that I would want this part time job to be permanent as I'm not sure how keen I am on it (though it's early days). Financially, I can only afford the upkeep of share horse (if he comes to live with me and my two retirees) by dipping into my savings. I have a good chunk saved up that was intended for my gap year, so I can afford it so long as I'm not part time indefinitely (I work in a profession where it is relatively easy to find work). If I ended up using my savings on his keep for 12 months, I would still have a good amount of my savings left. Certainly enough to fund a gap year if I still wanted one.

What I am finding really tricky, is knowing what is the right thing to do. I would ultimately still like to travel, so what would I do with share horse while I do that (my sister is taking the retirees)? But how long will it be before it is actually possible to do a proper gap year? Do I keep saying "no I can't have another horse/ buy a house/ move area" and putting life on hold because "I'll be taking a gap year soon"? What if I can't take my gap year "soon"? But is it sensible to use my savings to pay for a horse? What if I do struggle to find full time work? I feel very "uncertain" in all aspects of my life at the moment, in a way that I haven't since I left university, and I really don't know what to do for the best. I'm ever so fond of my share horse and I really love riding him, but I just don't know what is the right decision, so I would really welcome your thoughts. Please do be brutally honest - I won't be (too) offended!

I am a 'live for today' person, most of the time, so I would probably accept the offer, unless you think he will turn into a walking vet bill shortly. Who knows when the gap year might be able to take place? Really, none of us. If you wanted to, you could probably augment your income with supply teaching, so that you don't need to dip into your savings long term. Perhaps you should discuss it with your sister, she might be prepared to look after this horse if you do go travelling before too long.

 

[Firefly9410]

I think the owner is wanting the best of both worlds. There is no such thing as a permanent loan. So you would need to establish if this is a full loan or if she is gifting you the horse. Permanent loan sounds like she wants to keep overall rights as to what happens to him whilst having none of the day to day responsibility of finances or time and she cannot imagine this situation changing. But that does not mean the situation will not change. You have changes planned for one thing and she could have changes too which might mean she wants him back. If he is gifted to you you have much more control. In the future you can decide stuff like whether to sell or loan out or PTS which you cannot decide with a loan without getting the owners agreement. The thing about life being on hold is hard because nobody has a crystal ball where covid is concerned.

 

[Griffin]

Do you have to do all your travelling in once go or could you split it up? For example, have a few month long holidays over a few years. That way, you can still work and save some money.

I think it is tricky, personally, I would want the horse properly gifted to me, to have control over what happen next. As for the financial side, only you know whether you are happy dipping into savings for a bit.

 

[Ambers Echo]

You can travel now if you really want. You would just have to plot a route carefully and be flexible. But I can understand feeling as though travel right now is not appealing - masks, social distancing, lots of stuff cancelled (festivals, carnivals etc). So you need to think about how back to normal you want life to be before you travel. I doubt there will be much change over the next 12 -18 months at least if you are waiting for the old normal not the new normal.

I would not be putting life on hold pending some distant date. Arrangements for the horse can be made as you need to make them! I know Joosie went travelling and managed to sort her 2 out for example. x

 

[Shilasdair]

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[HazuraJane]

Firstly, I think travelling next year will be risky as I don't think Covid 19 will be over by then.
Secondly - a permanent loan is a very bad idea. Either buy him or don't. If you buy him, you could then put him on loan while you go travelling. If he's on permanent loan - what then? Perpetual interference from the last owner but with no responsibility.

Last sentence of this reply says it all.

 

[Tiddlypom]

An enjoyable and worthwhile gap year is going to be a way off yet, I fear. Technically possible, but if there are all sorts of restrictions and lockdowns in place, it wouldn’t be much fun.

So go for the horse if you want to, but as an owned horse, not a loan.

 

[Melody Grey]

Purchase him for £1 but with full disclosure of vet notes?

 

[Polos Mum]

Before you decide anything what is the lameness / vetting situation. Buying for £1 might not be a great deal if he's underlying health issues?

If the owner wants permanent loan then great - be clear he will go back to her when there is a vaccine and we can travel freely again. If she want's to sell for £1 make sure you pay £1 and get a receipt so he's yours (subject to vet point above)

 

[stormox]

Whats a 'permanemt loan'? Surely you have a loan - in which either party can terminate the agrerment, or the horse is given/sold to you in which case the giver/seller has no say in what happens and you can sell should you so wish...

 

[CMcC]

I think you have too many uncertainties, unknowns to take on a “permanent loan” at the moment.
Permanent loan sounds like your hands are being tied. The horse is not yours to sell, should you need to financially or because you go travelling or because of whatever might happen in life. But you can’t say to owner you need to return. Sounds lose/lose to me.

 

[TPO]

If you didnt think he was being gifted (& if you do decide to proceed I'd have everything in writing/change of ownership sorted etc rather than any assumptions) would you want a horse?

If you were in the market for a horse would you really want him given that you passed on him before due to lameness issues.

If you do decide to proceed with him, and I'd want ownership rather than a "permanent loan", then I'd treat it as a final sale and still get him vetted unless you are ok with an increased potential that there may be an underlying issue and/or be able to pts or have 3 retirees if there is something.

Hopefully there isnt anything and he would vet ok so no more risk than with any other vetted horse.

The gap year thing is a hard call. Simply put no one knows what's going to happen with covid. From an economic POV international travel is going to have to open back up before everywhere goes totally bust but how that impacts on a gap year who knows.

From the little that I've read July 2021 was being bandied about as the latest date for flights to Australia for holidays. I dont know where you are planning on going and how it will alter your plans.

I'm usually first to say buy the horse but given then uncertainty of the arrangement, soundness, your job and travelling I'd err on the side of caution for now especially if your heart is still set on travelling

Without the offer of him would you be looking to own a horse right now? Keeping in mind any horse you get now means we are just heading into winter then as the spring/summer approaches you'll hopefully be jetting off on 12mths of travelling meaning an additional stress finding 12mths of care for your horse.

 

[Red-1]

My view of permanent loan is where the owner undertakes not to whip the horse away from you, but the loan part means you can return the horse if your circumstances change.

That is actually quite a good deal as, if the horse stays sound, you have a horse but, if he goes lame, you can return.

However, I am another who wouldn't generally dip into savings to pay to keep a horse.

But, it may be that if you don't take the offer, the horse would be sold elsewhere. You have to decide if you could lose that.

 

[splashgirl45]

i am not of the generation that has had a gap year, if you want to go travelling, you wont be able to for some time so why not plan for a couple of years time and concentrate on what you want to do now.. if the horse was sold on how would you feel? that would be my way of deciding. if he is on loan the word permanent doesnt really mean anything IMO. i had my loan mare for life in theory but it turned out that i physically couldnt manage so gave the owner plenty of notice before we ended the loan. we did have a contract which said that the loan could be terminated by either of us giving a month's notice ( i gave 6 months)

 

[HashRouge]

Firstly thanks all for your replies - it has really helped just to write it all down and to see everyone's thoughts.

You can travel now if you really want. You would just have to plot a route carefully and be flexible. But I can understand feeling as though travel right now is not appealing - masks, social distancing, lots of stuff cancelled (festivals, carnivals etc). So you need to think about how back to normal you want life to be before you travel. I doubt there will be much change over the next 12 -18 months at least if you are waiting for the old normal not the new normal.

I would not be putting life on hold pending some distant date. Arrangements for the horse can be made as you need to make them! I know Joosie went travelling and managed to sort her 2 out for example. x

I was going to do Latin America, so unfortunately that really isn't doable at the moment. I'm not really interested in changing destinations - I'm a big Latin America travel bug (I've done five different trips in the last seven years, ranging from 3 weeks to 3 months) and it has been a dream for a long time to go with a one way ticket! I'm really gutted I couldn't go this year, but I'd rather put it on hold for a few years than try and do something now. The issue of "putting life on hold" is one that worries me a lot as that is how I feel at the moment, and I suspect that is partly why I am so temp0ted re share horse. What is harder to work out is whether it is the right decision or just a reaction to everything that has "gone wrong" (for want of a better expression) in my life due to Covid!

An enjoyable and worthwhile gap year is going to be a way off yet, I fear. Technically possible, but if there are all sorts of restrictions and lockdowns in place, it wouldn’t be much fun.

So go for the horse if you want to, but as an owned horse, not a loan.

Yes I think you are right - I just wish I had a crystal ball to see how far off!!

Before you decide anything what is the lameness / vetting situation. Buying for £1 might not be a great deal if he's underlying health issues?

If the owner wants permanent loan then great - be clear he will go back to her when there is a vaccine and we can travel freely again. If she want's to sell for £1 make sure you pay £1 and get a receipt so he's yours (subject to vet point above)

I'm 99% certain the lameness was due to an abscess, but he's been sound for the last 12 months with regular riding on tricky ground (by me) so I'm fairly confident he's no more likely to break than any other horse.

If you didnt think he was being gifted (& if you do decide to proceed I'd have everything in writing/change of ownership sorted etc rather than any assumptions) would you want a horse?

If you were in the market for a horse would you really want him given that you passed on him before due to lameness issues.

If you do decide to proceed with him, and I'd want ownership rather than a "permanent loan", then I'd treat it as a final sale and still get him vetted unless you are ok with an increased potential that there may be an underlying issue and/or be able to pts or have 3 retirees if there is something.

Hopefully there isnt anything and he would vet ok so no more risk than with any other vetted horse.

The gap year thing is a hard call. Simply put no one knows what's going to happen with covid. From an economic POV international travel is going to have to open back up before everywhere goes totally bust but how that impacts on a gap year who knows.

From the little that I've read July 2021 was being bandied about as the latest date for flights to Australia for holidays. I dont know where you are planning on going and how it will alter your plans.

I'm usually first to say buy the horse but given then uncertainty of the arrangement, soundness, your job and travelling I'd err on the side of caution for now especially if your heart is still set on travelling

Without the offer of him would you be looking to own a horse right now? Keeping in mind any horse you get now means we are just heading into winter then as the spring/summer approaches you'll hopefully be jetting off on 12mths of travelling meaning an additional stress finding 12mths of care for your horse.

I think your first paragraph sums it up very well, and it's what I'm having trouble getting straight in my head. Do I actually want him, or is it just the fact that he has been offered that is making me consider it? I do wonder if I'm jumping on this idea to try and "make up" for not being able to travel.

My view of permanent loan is where the owner undertakes not to whip the horse away from you, but the loan part means you can return the horse if your circumstances change.

That is actually quite a good deal as, if the horse stays sound, you have a horse but, if he goes lame, you can return.

However, I am another who wouldn't generally dip into savings to pay to keep a horse.

But, it may be that if you don't take the offer, the horse would be sold elsewhere. You have to decide if you could lose that.

Yes this is what I understood with a permanent loan, but obviously I would need to clarify exactly what his owner is thinking. Your last sentence is what I keep turning over in my mind at the moment - how would I feel if he was sold to someone else?

i am not of the generation that has had a gap year, if you want to go travelling, you wont be able to for some time so why not plan for a couple of years time and concentrate on what you want to do now.. if the horse was sold on how would you feel? that would be my way of deciding. if he is on loan the word permanent doesnt really mean anything IMO. i had my loan mare for life in theory but it turned out that i physically couldnt manage so gave the owner plenty of notice before we ended the loan. we did have a contract which said that the loan could be terminated by either of us giving a month's notice ( i gave 6 months)

The problem is I'm having such a hard time imagining her actually selling him, because she was supposed to sell him 12 months ago when I didn't buy him and she never even advertised him! So I think in my head I can't picture it! Luckily I have got some time to think as she is going into hospital soon and doesn't want to decide anything until she is out and back on her feet (I mean luckily I have time to think, not that she is going into hospital!).

I just feel so up in the air about everything, I'm struggling to work out what I actually want! But all your replies have really helped and have given me a lot to think about, so thank you!

 

[1523679]

We didn't go into too many details but I think the idea is that she would essentially be "gifting" him to me.

There isn’t much point getting out the crystal ball to look at COVID and your gap year. All you’ve got to go on at the moment is “[not] too many details” and “I think”.

The owner sounds very woolly. Get her nailed down on the details, particularly legal ownership and financial responsibility. Then you can do your soul-searching about your career and travel plans. At the moment you just haven’t got enough information about the permanent loan to make an objective decision.

Good luck! I hope it all ends happily for you.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

You need to clarify what the owner wants. No to a loan, your hands are tied. She could take him back or permanently interfere. Offer to buy him for a quid.

Re travelling, this isn’t going away anytime soon, I don’t think travelling is on the cards for the next couple of years, tbh.

 

[Trouper]

I think if you really want to go travelling do you want to do it with so many Covid limitations in place possibly restricting your choices and enjoyment of the process? If not, then I think - realistically - as others have said we are a long way off the world being the place it was before.
That does not mean you have to fill the void with taking on a horse. My acid test would be "How would I feel if he was given on loan to someone else?" That would tell me how much I really wanted him.
I think it might also be helpful to look at some other ambitions that you could work towards if travelling is off for the time being. That could be some training - either horse related or not - but something to challenge you and give you some focus until you can pick up the travelling dream again.

 

[ester]

What you don't say in your OP is how much you like the horse, did you like him enough to buy him if he had passed a vetting, or do you ride him because he's a fairly convenient share.

I'd want to know exactly what current owner was thinking with regards to loaning, as if she has other stuff going on will she be in a position to actually take him back.

Permanent loan often means different things to different people, and is something people will do when the reality is that they would have nowhere to put the horse if it did come back to them.