Personal and public liability

Equi

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My friend was a livery at my yard for a few weeks but now she’s home (and still wishing to join in lessons with me) she needs personal and public liability. Was hoping to have a lesson tomorrow!

Anyone know someone fast and cheap for this as it will only be once a month or so.
 

ycbm

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Tell her to look at her home insurance policy first, it's on most of them.
 

rifruffian

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I do believe that that the most cost effective insurance, of this type, is obtained by enrolling as a non riding member in Endurance GB. You are automatically covered by a policy which covers you for all risks arising from horse ownership. Of course do not take my word for it, read the small print yourself.
 

Equi

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Bhs gold is public liability only so doesn’t count. I’ll ask her to look at her House reinsurance - what exactly would you look for on it though?
 

ycbm

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Bhs gold is public liability only so doesn’t count. I’ll ask her to look at her House reinsurance - what exactly would you look for on it though?

I think you/she may be confused what public liability means? It covers any claim any other person may make against you as an individual.

What does she think she will get for 'personal liability'? It is personal liability to the public, also known as third party liability.

She's looking for third party liability. My house policy has £2 million. Some consider this too low.
 

Equi

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By personal I mean if she would get injured on the yard. 3rd party would be if her horse wrecked something or injureded someone I assumed?
 

Theocat

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OP, do you mean personal accident insurance? I am not sure why she needs that just for lessons, though - I’d expect a rider either to feel it is necessary all the time, or not to bother with it.

Cross posted with you - yes, she wants personal accident and public liability, but she is unlikely to find a policy that only covers her at a specific yard. Why does she want it if she dorsn’t think it is otherwise necessary?
 
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Polos Mum

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If she wants cover for her getting injured (odd to think that only necessary during lessons but anyway) then personal accident insurance - It is included in BHS but only £10k or something tiny. A comprihensive policy will be expensive because horses are dangerous!

If you are worried that she gets injured at your property then that is your third party liability because she is a third party to you. So if she has a nasty injury in a lesson at your yard then she would claim against you. Even if she had very expensive personal accident insurance she would/ could still make a claim against you - so her having personal insurance doesn't negate the need for you having proper insurance.
 

ycbm

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If she wants cover for her getting injured (odd to think that only necessary during lessons but anyway) then personal accident insurance - It is included in BHS but only £10k or something tiny. A comprihensive policy will be expensive because horses are dangerous!

If you are worried that she gets injured at your property then that is your third party liability because she is a third party to you. So if she has a nasty injury in a lesson at your yard then she would claim against you. Even if she had very expensive personal accident insurance she would/ could still make a claim against you - so her having personal insurance doesn't negate the need for you having proper insurance.

Exactly. And it's also likely that expensive personal accident insurance cover would include the right of the insurance company to recover their costs by pursuing you anyway. There's no way of avoiding liability, I'm afraid.
 

Shay

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YCBM is right - the liability is in fact yours not hers. It is you who needs the correct third party liability insurance. Your friend could potentially insure her horse for vets fees (but they will recover the cost from you if you are liable) and herself for personal accident (ditto). Your care & control insurance won't extend to a horse for which you do not have care or control. Your own 3P might not extend to offering your facilities to those not resident on yard. You need to check your small print there. If you are BHS registered you will have their insurance which covers you for liability whilst teaching - but will not extend to any protection for the yard as a business entity unless you have bought that extended cover.
 

Equi

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Sorry i suppose i should have been clear, the yard she wants to come to for lessons said she must have her own insurance as they would not be covered in the event of an accident cause they are not "putting on" the lesson. My friend just wants to join me and another livery for an outside instructor to do a few lessons cause otherwise she hasnt got anyone to ride with. YO said the yard policy covers liveries only.
 
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If the yard owner hires out the school to outsiders then they need insurance to cover that. If they don't want to get the insurance then they lock down the school to liveries only full stop.
 

ycbm

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If the yard owner hires out the school to outsiders then they need insurance to cover that. If they don't want to get the insurance then they lock down the school to liveries only full stop.

This. The yard cannot avoid their liability to anyone who they invite onto their land (or to trespassers,, come to that!).

There is NO insurance policy which she can take out that would prevent her from being able to sue them.

There are some, with high personal accident payouts, which would actually make it more likely they would be sued, not less.

The yard do not understand what they are asking for. I also think it is almost impossible that their existing business liability insurance, if they run a livery yard, will not already cover them.

Are they trying to find a 'nice' way of telling her she can't ride there?
 

Equi

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I cant imagine they would be cause they love her! They are technically not hiring out the arena, me and another livery are taking a lesson and my friend wants to join in. If its going to be complicated my friend just won't do it and that would be a shame cause we would all enjoy it and shes so close i had planned on her coming here regularly to go out and about (her home yard is not big enough to accommodate my trailer and she has no facilities only hacking)
 

Rowreach

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I cant imagine they would be cause they love her! They are technically not hiring out the arena, me and another livery are taking a lesson and my friend wants to join in. If its going to be complicated my friend just won't do it and that would be a shame cause we would all enjoy it and shes so close i had planned on her coming here regularly to go out and about (her home yard is not big enough to accommodate my trailer and she has no facilities only hacking)

Sadly the fact is that if she has an accident which can be, even remotely, blamed on the yard owners, then they may find themselves liable. Covering herself for personal injury is a choice for her to make, covering herself for third party liability (her horse causing an accident or damage to the premises) is very sensible to do anyway, and most yards would insist on it.

Insurance companies will do everything in their power to blame someone else and NOT pay out in the event of a claim.

In this case you may be right, and it will be too complicated for her to join you, which is a great pity but sadly the way of the world these days.
 

Xanthoria

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Admittedly I'm in the US so details may not match exactly, but in a recent discussion with my insurance agent she said that your liability insurance should match what you have to lose. In other words, if you have assets worth $1M, if someone gets hurt their lawyers will sue you for that (to over simplify). There's not much point in suing someone for $5M when you know you can't collect that.

Add up the assets at risk (yours, your parents if relevant) and buy insurance for that. My policy covers all third party liability, and my insurance agent said actually the horse is not the items that's the most likely to cause you to have to use that insurance - it's the cars. So look at the liability umbrella as a much more far reaching product, and the potential to be sued as much wider than you think.
 

Equi

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Sadly the fact is that if she has an accident which can be, even remotely, blamed on the yard owners, then they may find themselves liable. Covering herself for personal injury is a choice for her to make, covering herself for third party liability (her horse causing an accident or damage to the premises) is very sensible to do anyway, and most yards would insist on it.

Insurance companies will do everything in their power to blame someone else and NOT pay out in the event of a claim.

In this case you may be right, and it will be too complicated for her to join you, which is a great pity but sadly the way of the world these days.

Sad world we live in that people cant just go have fun anymore :( im fairly sure my friend would never actually sue, but i totally understand the YO point of view in that you cant trust that. We already had a lesson booked at a Tullymurry (a riding school and XC course for those not local) thus insurance will be covered so we will look forward to that.
 

Rowreach

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Sad world we live in that people cant just go have fun anymore :( im fairly sure my friend would never actually sue, but i totally understand the YO point of view in that you cant trust that. We already had a lesson booked at a Tullymurry (a riding school and XC course for those not local) thus insurance will be covered so we will look forward to that.

Unfortunately it's probably the only way to keep everyone covered to use somewhere like that. Times have certainly changed.
 

ycbm

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Admittedly I'm in the US so details may not match exactly, but in a recent discussion with my insurance agent she said that your liability insurance should match what you have to lose. In other words, if you have assets worth $1M, if someone gets hurt their lawyers will sue you for that (to over simplify). There's not much point in suing someone for $5M when you know you can't collect that.

Add up the assets at risk (yours, your parents if relevant) and buy insurance for that. My policy covers all third party liability, and my insurance agent said actually the horse is not the items that's the most likely to cause you to have to use that insurance - it's the cars. So look at the liability umbrella as a much more far reaching product, and the potential to be sued as much wider than you think.


In this country, if you have assets of two million and are insured for, say, two million and the judgement is more, they can come after your assets for the extra. The liability is yours, not the Insurance Company's.

Current advice is that you need ten million cover in order to be sure that your own assets will never be at risk.
 
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Chuckieee

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YCBM is right and there are insurers who only provide Third Party cover for half a million so beyond that the insured could find themselves personally liable.

I do not think that this has to be so complicated. Your friend could purchase rider-only cover from any reputable insurer, which would cover public liability and personal accident. Although I would expect that her horse's insurance should cover both - is her horse not insured?

But I would check that the yard has public liability cover too. In addition, the instructor should have some cover.

But do not encourage your friend to sign any disclaimers (from the yard owner or instructor) as this could invalidate her insurance.
 

Rowreach

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YCBM is right and there are insurers who only provide Third Party cover for half a million so beyond that the insured could find themselves personally liable.

I do not think that this has to be so complicated. Your friend could purchase rider-only cover from any reputable insurer, which would cover public liability and personal accident. Although I would expect that her horse's insurance should cover both - is her horse not insured?

But I would check that the yard has public liability cover too. In addition, the instructor should have some cover.

But do not encourage your friend to sign any disclaimers (from the yard owner or instructor) as this could invalidate her insurance.

But I'm reading it that the yard only has cover for its own liveries to use the arena - which is different from general PL cover (someone walking onto your property and tripping over a wonky paving slab). My own yard insurance covered general PL, my liveries using the arena, and anyone using it while being taught by me, but not random others, so I couldn't hire it out for others to use.

Just because a rider has their own insurance won't save the YO from being sued if there is an accident and they are deemed to have been negligent in any way.

These days unfortunately it is simply not worth the risk.

And a disclaimer is not worth the paper it's written on ....
 
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