personality change in my 4 year old since backing, now hes getting dangerous

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patch1234

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My 4 year old was sent away to be backed and schooled with a very professional rider. His backing was fantastic and he has turned into an up and coming eventer with huge potential.

Before he went away he was mild mannered, virtually unspookable, kind and willing. He was good in the stable and easily rugged, booted ect.

Since coming home he weaves in the stable quite violently at feed time, he smashes his head on any one trying to sort out his rugs, he will not stand still to be groomed, he is bolshy in the stable and outside and tonight he tried to bite both myself and his regular groom.

He was kept in nearly 24/7 at the backing yard (i just found this out) but ridden every day. He was at the yard 12 weeks due to being so impressive with his training but I felt he should come home for a break.

I tried to lunge him and he went beserk, but did eventually calm down but he is becoming more impossible as the days go on.

I turn him out 8am - 5pm with a friend he comes in at night as fields very wet. He is fed adlib hay and a high fibre feed from chestnut horse feeds for horses at rest, he does get a small amount of speedi beet added, this is morning and night.

Please can any one advice as I am an experienced horse owner but this personality change is the most dramatic i have seen.
 
patch1234 said:
My 4 year old was sent away to be backed and schooled with a very professional rider. His backing was fantastic and he has turned into an up and coming eventer with huge potential.

Before he went away he was mild mannered, virtually unspookable, kind and willing. He was good in the stable and easily rugged, booted ect.

Since coming home he weaves in the stable quite violently at feed time, he smashes his head on any one trying to sort out his rugs, he will not stand still to be groomed, he is bolshy in the stable and outside and tonight he tried to bite both myself and his regular groom.

He was kept in nearly 24/7 at the backing yard (i just found this out) but ridden every day. He was at the yard 12 weeks due to being so impressive with his training but I felt he should come home for a break.

I tried to lunge him and he went beserk, but did eventually calm down but he is becoming more impossible as the days go on.

I turn him out 8am - 5pm with a friend he comes in at night as fields very wet. He is fed adlib hay and a high fibre feed from chestnut horse feeds for horses at rest, he does get a small amount of speedi beet added, this is morning and night.

Please can any one advice as I am an experienced horse owner but this personality change is the most dramatic i have seen.
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how long has he been back with you ? going from 9 hours a day turn out to none has probably been quite stressful for him, id just give hime time to settle and do lots of ground work with him. dont ask too much of him just let him chill for a while.
 
what was he like whilst he was away? Was he this unsettled on their yard too? I'm surprised he was in for three months solid and you've only just found this out. I would be seriously unimpressed if my 4yo wasn't turned out for three months personally and would have had him home long ago if I'd known.

Is he working now, how long has he been back?
 
Several things come to mind, he may have been like this while away and they just worked him harder to keep a lid on him, possibly partly why they wanted to keep him longer, did you ride him there or do any work with him to get a feel of how he was working.
The break, lack of work, change to his routine may not suit, I have one here that was so much better the first winter when not turned out daily he seemed to need the discipline of stable/ work/ stable he has grown up now and is much more mannerly.
He could have a physical reason if worked hard, back, ulcers would be two things to rule out.
 
I find horses often change arpund 4 years old an try it on, but this sounds quite dramatic... Maybe he's been asked a bit too much too soon? IMO being ridden every day for 12weeks when being backed is far too much...

I would maybe turn away for a bit and let him take everything in. Is there any way you can turn out 24/7? He might have really hated being in all the time and is fed up with being stabled.
 
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12 weeks in work - sounds like he needs to be turned away for a while to settle back to himself.

Might also be worth doing the regular phys, back etc checks after all that muscle development,if you haven't done them already.
 
Wholeheartedly agree that this horse has definitely suffered a broken spirit among other things. Soured to the point of violence. I don't know what to suggest but his backing sounds very hurried for a four year old.

Anyway, I'm sure this is not usual. I would say just try to keep him in a routine as much as possible, don't stop his workload of you can but reduce it although I would rule out ridden until you can rule out physical causes to his behaviour. Perhaps veterinary intervention with sedatives to check him over properly.

I would be investigating exactly what happened to him at the yard. I would be most unhappy!
 
I would agree that he probably did do too much at once but the trainer assured me his routine was perfectly acceptable and i visited weekly and all seemed well. However I did notice all stables had anti weave grills fitted which may mean nothing but i did notice it.

He is out 9 hours, if kept in in the day he is awful, he just wants out. when in field he is his normal self. At 5pm he is stood at gate waiting to come in.

Yes he is unhappy as his actions show but I cannot figure out why. His lifestyle now is more relaxed, he is out with his friend/s, not overstuffed with concentrates, not over rugged, regular routine, big clean stable so where am I going wrong? Hes been home 3 weeks.
 
Three weeks isn't overly long if you're a horse. Some of them take three months to settle after they move (I have the misfortune of having one of these :rolleyes:)

I'd give him a couple more weeks of what you're doing and see how he goes. If no better I would start thinking about having the vet to him, particularly thinking about ulcers as if he was in 24/7 and didn't have constant ad-lib hay this is where my mind would go.
 
Be patient. Three weeks is nothing for an animal that never forgets. Just hope he can forgive...?

I'm sure with love and care, he will become his sweet self again, he is probably just being untrusting right now. Be consistent and be fair with him and keep him in a routine in which he seems happiest. Reintroduce work next spring maybe. Reward him for any positive behaviours.
 
I do think he has had a bit of a rough backing - and i would not be happy that my young horse had had no turn out for 12 weeks and that he was ridden every da, do you know how long his sessions were?

But what is done is done.

Me - I would turn him out for as much as possible, take him off any hard feed, get his teeth checked - and give him the winter off.

Unless you can get him somewhere for 24 hour turn out??

Then i would look at slowly slowly next year.
 
I would turn him away (out 24/7 with friends) for the winter and bring him back into work in the spring. Do not send him back to the yard that backed him, get someone to help you at your yard.
 
Just catching up on your answers:

He was 4 years old June, held off until a bit later as I felt he was a bit gangly to be backed.

Before he went away he was out as and when he could be day and night depending on weather.

He was kind but very much a blood animal so not as placid as some cobs.

The chap who backed him is highly recommended but I know he does not turn out much.

My horse was due to be there 6 weeks but due to him being so talanted it was suggested i keep him there longer for schooling in order to enter the 4 year old classes.

I felt he was safe and although he wasnt his usual cuddly self at all times I was assured this is normal during the backing process my vet also knew the backing yard and highly recommended it so I felt no need to worry.

He did come home muscled up, and very much a competion horse (if you get what i mean) now i dont know what to do to make him happy.

I do not ride him as to be honest dont really trust him now with his behaviour plus i wanted to give him a break.
 
Sorry to say this but it really annoys me, you trusted the "professional" but they were greedy.

Yes horse was talented and willing, now he is just talented.

6 weeks for backing correctly is more than enough for the first session.

Can you get hold of Janet George - she would be my first port of call on this
 
Thank you so much for your answers its awful seeing your horse unhappy and i do feel guilty that i cant seem to get him to feel secure again. I will get him checked for ulcers and i will give him a couple of weeks more in the routine he is in. I will do what ever it takes to get him back to his self im just worried he has been ruined and it was my fault for sending him there in the first place.
 
patch1234 said:
I would agree that he probably did do too much at once but the trainer assured me his routine was perfectly acceptable and i visited weekly and all seemed well. However I did notice all stables had anti weave grills fitted which may mean nothing but i did notice it.
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Some people who are taking money from you are less than honest. The routine may have been acceptable to the trainer but obviously wasn't to the horse. Why on earth did the horse need to be with this trainer for 3 months?
I'd give him a bit longer to settle back with you, have his back etc checked in case of sore muscles, without riding him and if in a couple of weeks or so he is no better, turn him away. It does sound as if he has been put under far too much pressure, too young.
 
patch1234 - stop it - at least you are listening to your horse now- many wouldn't.

We can all regret stuff - it does not help the situation as well i know.

Has he got wolf teeth by any chance ?
 
Patch, I guess if you say where you are you might worry that it will hint at the identity of the trainer. Personally, I agree with what the others are saying and I would contact a holistic vet. I use Tim Couzens, he's a qualified vet, and he's amazing. There are others that people recommend as well, I just can't think of the names at the moment.
I think he needs a good break. I'd actually work around the things that upset him rather than insisting. Will he let you groom him away from the stable? Even change his rugs away from the stable? Or - modern rugs are fine to go from field and stay on in the stable - what about that? And take his rug off somewhere he relaxes to re-seat it and check him over. He sounds like a horse that is anticipating unpleasant experiences, in the stable and nearby, and when being lunged. I've known over-schooled horses that have developed such a fear of arenas they've become impossible to ride in one (it can be overcome though with patience). Does he settle in the stable if there's nobody about? Could he go into a stable where he has company, but not a lot of "traffic" from people and horses going past. Can you get it all set up with his dinner inside before he goes in, and just take his headcollar off and leave him in peace? (Heck, I've got so many ideas about this, have had some experience, pm me if it might help).
Then, when your horse remembers what it is to be a horse, someone like Janet George might be the one to turn to. Definitely a trainer who comes 100% recommended by trusted people.
Sadly your story is all too familiar. But don't beat yourself up, we all put our trust in experts, and normally it's the right thing to do.

Oh heck, and yes, check for ulcers, and get a general back, teeth and tack check.
 
Thank you for the kind words, yes I did trust the trainer and to be honest I found him to be great and he rides like a dream and my horse looked fantastic when ridden, but maybe i took my eye off the ball and relied on others a bit too much.

I will try and change rugs in a different place and see if that works.

Tomorrow he is going out with an old friend of his which he may prefer.

I am worried because i dont want him to hurt anyone so im becoming angry with him but i know its not his fault.

Tomorrow i will try the various bits of advice i have been given and see if it helps.

I cant say the area im in as the chap is too well known and like i said before I think hes great at what he does, but in this instance my chap wasnt coping and i didnt see it.
 
hi
this might be completely irrelevant but i thought i'd mention it

my horse is a big soft puff and takes a long time to settle ,last year he had an injury that required traveling to the vets ,he was a perfect gent at the vets and looked really settled but on returning home he was a nightmare for weeks ,really unsettled ,box walking ,grumpy , screaming for his friends and generally upset
he behaved the same when i took him to camp for a couple of days ,perfect gent and looked settled while he was there but on coming home it took him ages to settle down

i never figured out why he behaved like this as i'd have expected him to be upset in the strange yard :confused:

might be of no help to you at all but it might just be worth trying him in a very stricked routine for a few weeks to see if he settles ,maybe lay off the work load in case there is pain anywhere ,good luck hope you get to the bottom of it
 
Sorry you are having to go through this. in fairness, some 4 year olds will thrive on more work, some need more time to grow up physically, some, like mine, look great but have not caught up mentally. We have a 4 year old mare on the yard who is going on 20 in terms of her attitude but she is kept back a little so she can grow. Another 4 year old who is loving change and a 5 year old who has to go slowly as he keeps growing and needs new things introduced slowly. That one is mine!

My YO last year had a newly backed 5 year old who just went great guns. She still stopped everything mid season and gave him a good break as felt he needed time to chill again. Then he came back into work and did his first CC1* this season so must have done something right!
 
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Faracat said:
I would turn him away (out 24/7 with friends) for the winter and bring him back into work in the spring. Do not send him back to the yard that backed him, get someone to help you at your yard.
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I'm firmly in this camp too, you cannot beat a complete break for a horse to help with stress. Does I'm afraid sound very much like he has been asked too much and you should try and take the pressure off. Turning away in a big field with a few others is usually the best way to do this. Let him be a horse again, not a human plaything which I suspect is what he feels he is now.
Really hope you get it sorted, it's so heartbreaking when people abuse yours and the horses trust.
 
What was he like when he first came home?

On the face of it I'd be saying too much too fast and chuck him out for the winter, but you say he's gradually got worse since he came back ... I'm just wondering if he's just feeling very fit, and after all the mental stimulation a bit bored on top of feeling fit...? I don't mean you should just keep on with the same workload, but it might be another thing to think about.
 
I can't say this enough. I do not care if your horse is 3,4, or 10. Breaking should be a time for the horse to enjoy learning. Especially with quick and talented learners which are extra eager to please. You should not be hearing things about how talented your horse is from a breaker. You should be hearing he's happy, he enjoys learning, and quite relaxed while outside rolling in muck giving me extra work to do in the evenings. You do not go from zero to 60 and expect to have a nice calm well adjusted animal. Breaking is learning the ropes on being ridden. It's about confidence for your horse. Confidence to know things will not happen too fast too soon. Confidence in that the person on their back is looking out for them and will never ask them questions they do not understand. Or abuse the fact the horse tries very hard to please.

And again, never ever send your horses somewhere you can't just show up when you want. Within reason of course. Normal yard hours. Make sure you see your horse in work and you get to ride too. Poor baby horse. He's had his brain fried.

I would not lunge this horse. In and out. He will settle but it will take time. You will have to be patient.

Terri
 
Others have wise words, so I'll only add: take him off the sugarbeet and see if that makes a difference. One of our horses is very sensitive to sugars and literally goes loopy when on it. The behaviour issues built up and up until we clicked what it was.

Hope you get sorted with the lad.
 
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