personality change in my 4 year old since backing, now hes getting dangerous

And we're not discussing a top horse here, merely a newly broken in youngster (don't I sound like a broken record??)[/QUOTE]

No but it has the potential, nearly every top class horse has a quirk:)
 
It is the stable behaviour that is the most worrying. My rising 4 gelding is not being fully broken until the spring but as he is 4 in the middle of winter he has done groundwork this year and been lightly backed but is not physically capable of doing a lot more. And he can be an idiot. He is fine to handle and fine in stable but can be a proper handful in the school. Although this is not all the time and he sometimes gets excited and throws in a few squeals and bucks for good measure and generally does not concentrate for long periods of time. That is being a young, immature horse. The OP's horse obviously has a major problem somewhere as it is the handling and stable where there is a problem. The horse bashing its head on the stable wall, for instance, is not normal behaviour. Weaving/cribbing, whilst obviously not wanted, is not the main problem. OP needs to speak to the trainer to see what he was like on the ground there and go form there. It could be a vet is needed to make sure that the horse has not been injured and is in pain and that is the cause of the behaviour.

As for the plug and competition horse argument. Yes its true that "competition" horses are normally more difficult than "plugs" but, at the end of the day, the OP says she wanted a competition horse and sent him off to a good yard so must have thought herself able to handle a competition horse. However, this horses behaviour is not normal. Please OP get some advice from the trainer and/or vet and keep us updated :)
 
kirstykate said:
And we're not discussing a top horse here, merely a newly broken in youngster (don't I sound like a broken record??)
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No but it has the potential, nearly every top class horse has a quirk:)[/QUOTE]

Every horse has potential. And you're absolutely right many top class horses have a quirk.

But as I've said (not sure how many times now) this is not a competition horse it's a newly broken in horse - with a future yet to be determined.
 
amymay said:
Sorry, that is simply not true.
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okay maybe not more difficult as such but you should get the gist of it from what I said. in fact ponies can be more difficult cos theyre damn bull headed sometimes. Uhh, quirky is probably the word i should have used.
 
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amymay said:
No but it has the potential, nearly every top class horse has a quirk:)
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Every horse has potential. And you're absolutely right many top class horses have a quirk.

But as I've said (not sure how many times now) this is not a competition horse it's a newly broken in horse - with a future yet to be determined.[/QUOTE]

And as I have said:p He has huge potential, we so we have been told, weather he is competing or not he has been produced as one, there is a difference in the way its done. If the trainer did not think the horse had the brains to do it, he would have done it differently:)
 
amymay said:
No, he's just been broken in. Production takes months and years, not weeks.
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hmm, to be honest I would say that he has done more than just be broken in and that is where there is a problem. They have done the breaking and started to produce a competition horse but maybe it is too much for him at the moment.
 
I would talk to the trainer and ask if the horse was showing the behaviour there to the same extent. competition horses are normally sharper but because of them needing to stand on a lorry at shows or stand around in a collecting ring they are normally pretty well mannered when being handled. I would think the horse either has something like ulcers coming or is missing the bustle of a busier yard and seeing things going on a lot more.
 
kirstykate said:
6 weeks to break a horse, walk trot canter on both reins. After 12 weeks I would be expecting changes and able to pop a small course.
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Yep, that sounds about right, apart from the changes - but appreciate that some things are introduced (if at all) at different times.

But is that production, or just bringing the horse on very generally? Competition aimed or not, I think most of us would accept that after 12 weeks we would expect a level of competency from the horse.
 
Patch - if he was mine.... (had a similar problem with my 4yr old recently!). I don't know anything about the feed you are feeding but I would cut it out if possible - mine is on Baileys High Fibre Cubes, adlib hay and that is it. I would try him over the next 10days and just get him lunging, riding in the school and maybe a bit of hacking if he enjoys it and then sling him out for a while. You mentioned that he's kept at home - if he was in an American Barn, this can make them rather possessive over their feed. My big horse is a THUG to feed - he's been like that since he was a 2 year old and at 21 he won't be changing. If he doesn't settle into a little bit of work then I would throw him out. I think all of this - he will remember that he had a holiday having been going badly is a load of rubbish. He is a horse and they do not think or have foresight like humans. My 4 year old had been up for about 5 months - broken and ridden away as a 3 year old and then had a good 5 months in work this year. She is very talented and finds everything super easy. She got to the stage where I got on her and picked up the contact and she started going backwards. I battled for a week and she's now thrown out in the paddock. She hasn't won the battle as she won't think when I next get on her that if she goes backwards she will have a holiday. That is foresight which as I said before horses don't have - if they did have foresight or perception they wouldn't jump out infront of cars etc! With his stable manners - I always tie horses up. No matter what animal it is, I go in the box and it's tied up. I would never dress a horse over or muck out untied - too many swing around to bite if you get a tickly bit. I have been educated in an old fashioned racing way in that sense but I think it's a very good grounding. Again, if he's naughty to lead out - bridle on. I would lunge him again with the rein over his head and through the bit ring or directly from the bit with a coupling. I just think you have to be firm and fair - he's a big strong horse after all. Also as others have said, call up the trainer and see what he says/suggests. He might come and sit on him for you as well. Good Luck and it would be good to hear your progress.
 
Poor horse and poor you!

I would definitely get an MOT on him and get the vet out just so you can rule out any physical problems before addressing the behaviour.

I also agree with amymay he is just a baby who has suddenly had a lot asked of him and had to deal with a lot of change in a short period of time. Yes he might thrive on a busier yard but I very much agree with spending 6 weeks backing and then turning away.
My 4yo was backed last year then turned away for about 6 months. Now we focus on hacking and getting balance in walk and trot while working long and low. We haven't even cantered yet as she had some problems with her back and is quite unconfident bending to the left. I take her in the school with a plan laid out of what we will do that should take 20mins no more and we finish when she has completed that and then she gets lots of praise, thats only twice a week then hacking three times as that is what will get her fit. Also a lot of groundwork and grooming and she gets 10hours turnout. We have many years ahead of each other so there is no way I would rush her yet and a number of people go on about how much potential she has and I should be doing this and that with her but I have no desire to fry her brain I want her to continue with her education willing and eager to please.
I would work on the groundwork and get your bond again and him trusting you (which obviously won't happen overnight). Then have a couple of weeks short positive quiet schooling and hacking and then turn away until spring. Especially if he is as talented as you have said you want him to enjoy his work and have confidence in you.

Remember as well that most of the top competition horses are in their teens it takes years to produce a horse of this level not 12 weeks.
 
JanetGeorge said:
There may be a bit of that involved. He may have settled into a new routine that kept him busy - and tired. He may be missing the work and testing the boundaries. But it seems rather more than that. I suspect he may have developed ulcers due to the strict routine, lack of turnout, and perhaps rather harsh discipline. But I still think the trainer should be the first port of call. He KNOWS the horse - none of us (except the ower of course) do.

And even if his brain IS fried, I don't think immediate turning away is the way to go. He will spend the winter remembering HOW he earned a holiday!! He'll remember his last behaviours - and they're bad. He needs to be brought back into hand - kindly but firmly - and THEN be let-up forf a short while!
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This makes so much sense to me. I do suspect it was the root of my lads rearing issues. Maybe he was broken then too much too soon and then turned away for long time because he was a handful. In any case he crafted his evasion of choice and became very good at it.

I'd risk so far as to say that he is now' institutionalised' and by that I mean that he is more comfortable in a busy yard with structure even if that limits turnout hours than on a small home yard. He has been reschooled and things are looking good but as one of 60 odd horses on the pros yard he is now rather funny about rugging ears back etc which was never an issue before.

It is a very different life for them on a pro yard and must require a period of readjustment and patience but instinctively I do feel Janet is right re: not turning away right now.

All the best op I do hope this works out for you.
 
My little lad - ex racer - sort of weaves if you know what i mean - but he goes up and down or leans out an bites his teeth at you - and i do think horses copy as the big lad learnt to do this
 
To my mind a lot of people here are making the assumption that the 12 weeks was all hard intensive work, work, work - not necessarily the case. It may equally have been very steady gentle introduction of different things slowly hence the need for 12 weeks.

I think the first port of call has to be as Janet George says get the trainer over to see him now and the behaviours he is exhibiting at ascertain what he/she suggests.

I'm not going to make any other suggestions as to do so without seeing the horse I think could be like looking for a needle in a haystack or trying to put the pieces of a jigsaw together whilst working blindfolded - all the pieces are there but I can't see where they go.

What I would say to you however is you are clearly very experienced and know your own horse. You visited it regularly whilst it was in training and didn't pick up on anything untoward so given your instincts now I don't think there was anything sinister going on because I think you have the nounce to have picked up in that, not just with your horse but with the others there too if there was. So don't beat yourself up over this. You have simply invested in what you believed was the best for a secure and productive future for him.

Get the trainer to your place to see him and take it from there. I font believe simply turning him away for winter is the answer in this case.

Oh and unless I witnessed all the horses weaving there I would not read anything into the fact that the boxes were fitted with anti weave grills either.
 
thehorsephotographer said:
Oh and unless I witnessed all the horses weaving there I would not read anything into the fact that the boxes were fitted with anti weave grills either.
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I would agree. If I was building my yard again from scratch (and a slightly better budget than I had at the time) I would fit ALL boxes with anti-weave grills. Not to stop weaving, but to stop the visiting nut jobs who try to jump the stable door without stopping them putting their heads out for a look around!

As it is we have half-a-dozen boxes with top grill brackets and - if in doubt about a new arrival's brain - we put a top grill on until we've had a chance to observe their behaviour - and they've had a chance to settle in!
 
Vet says does not think ulcers as knows yard well and fed correctly and hay 3 x daily.

Trainer says he is now a fit competiton horse who needs the stimulation he was getting at the yard and suggests boxing him up for riding then taken home opposed to staying there as im close by.

His progression was a lot more than average horse due to his ability.

Backed and hacking within 2 weeks no probs what so ever, jumping 4 weeks both with and without rider he loved it.

Cross country fences no problems, loved it.

Jumping 4 ft spreads very little effort really enjoyed it easily could jump higher.

Flying changes no problem almost taught himself lateral work no issues he just got it straight away.

This really is a talanted horse and was never beaten or pushed under saddle.
 
In my personal experiance horses having turn out ,hay all the time and correct feeding looking like a million dollars can still have ulcers , if I remember it rightly you say your horse is weaving, ulcer symptom , naughty being rugged up ,ulcer symptom I seen that one with my own eyes and being difficult to groom ulcer symptom .
Your horse had work and no turn out how a vet can say its not going to be ulcers I don't understand based on the competion horses I have dealt with.
Being talented should not make a previously pleasant to handle youngster dangerous to work on with they may get a bit sharper as they get fit but their characters stay basically the same .
 
I would try what the trainer suggests at this point unless you want to be the one riding him?

If he were mine I'd work with the trainer to get him to a point where he's (the horse) happy and working as well at home - whether this be initially you take him there to be ridden and then start riding him there first before riding him at home or whether you try a combination of both. I would try to get the trainer to your yard to assess him there if there is no improvement.
 
Holy moly patch is that what your 4 yr old has done in 12 weeks? No wonder he's gone nuts. Talent or not that is way way too much
 
If he doesnt improve within next couple of weeks with all the changes i am making i will definately look into the ulcer concerns.

Have also spoken to other competion yard owners and they all agree that my horse quite possibly needs the work now and not the rest over winter.

Spoke to BHS and they said changes in behaviour when coming back from competition backing yards is quite common especially if horse returns fit and ready to go. They also said there are two options either turn away or work but wouldnt give a decisive answer.

It is a difficult situation as i dont want to make the wrong decision.
 
First off all high level competition horses do not have quirks. I schooled for a very well known SJ rider in the States. He used to let me get on his 2 GP/World Cup horses at the time. They were anything but quirky. Dream rides. It was nice considering I was getting on mostly youngsters and also got to school the very bratty 12.2. As a matter of fact the pony was more difficult than the recent 150k GP winner. I've also ridden Breeders Cup winners, Kentucky Derby winners, and lots of Group/graded winners. You know what makes them all really good beyond talent? The MIND. And to an extent the people that understand them. I've been on some fantastically talented horses over the years that never put their best foot forward when it came time let the talent shine. Also been on some less naturally talented horses that tried harder and ended up being good horses. So really I just hate the ole "good horses are all quirky" crap. Some can be just as some completely useless horses can be quirky.

I'd like for you Kristykate to get some of the ones we get in and see what you can do in 12 weeks. Totally unhandled. As in can't even walk with a person and had a head collar on for the first time while in a cattle crush on the way into the trailer. To be fair that guy is walk, trot, canter, and hacks through the field. He's not doing flying changes yet and I don't actually ask him. 12 weeks yesterday. He goes out daily in company. He stands behind a single chain, loves mud, and loves a good sleep in a big straw bed. He's about to go home on a break like the other 3 from the same owner have. No problems at home.

It boggels my mind how people can say a horse should be doing this by such and such a week. They're all individuals. Some take more time to build the correct muscles, some less. Mentally some internalize more than others. Some not at all. Just all depends and you can't know any of that until the horse is in your barn and you're working with them. Maybe I may be on the cautious side, but considering I want sound older horses, as do most, I don't ask everything all at once. I try to be considerate. I also do not like breaking a horse and them not having turnout. Young horses being asked to use muscles they never have before and them stood in all day. I don't leave my jumping mare in 24/7. In the summer she competes from the field. Just because they can tolerate being in doesn't mean it's right.

Terri
 
hello OP,

This might sound a bit off the wall, but as an animal aromatherapist, I wanted to suggest some essential oils/ remedies that you could try. Whatever has happened to your horse, he needs to be re-balanced and to get stability back.

Firstly, RESCUE REMEDY NIGHT (Bach - from boots). Plus WALNUT (this is for change and unsettled behaviour) - add five drops of this to a very small amount of chaff/feed as many times a day as you can. You can also get a RR spray that you could spray directly into the mouth, but this may be tricky.

There are several essential oils that jump out - these need to be diluted to 3% with olive oil for oral use (if the animal needs that oil, it may lick it from your hand). Or he may just sniff it from the bottle. Never force an oil on a horse.

ROSE - trauma, panic, past abuse, deeply calming, letting go
ROMAN CHAMOMILE - very calming and soothing.

and a fab combination is NUTMEG + VETIVER - this is a magic combination that seems to really bring a horse back down to earth and "ground them".

And good old LAVENDER is excellent too.

I hope this has given you some ideas, but whatever you do, get started on the Rescue remedy and walnut asap. It does really work.
 
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I know it all seems too much and i would wholeheartedly agree if it was someone elses horse. But i watched alot of this and he didnt seem stressed at all and i know the trainer didnt force a thing out of him.

I think i will have to go with my gut feelings on this one and take a bit of advice from both sides of the discussion.
 
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