personality change in my 4 year old since backing, now hes getting dangerous

Im sure my youngster would work without outwardly appearing stressed to whatever level he was pushed, however I am also sure he'd shut down mentally as it'd be far too much!
 
patch1234 - I am quite shocked at the progress your horse made - especially on the jumping side. To go from backing to jumping in 4 weeks - too much - way to much. I really dont care what the professional says - if the horse was as talented as this why did he continue to push - horse was booked in for 6 weeks - he did everything planed and more but still did not get to come home - that was unfair. Or was it just easy money for the pro ?.

He just does not sound like he has had anytime to cement the learning process and your now finding out all the bits of his education that have been missed - i would be very angry - and i would be pretty fed up with the Vet too - when they have stopped slapping each other on the back and showing there nipples at each other -maybe the vet will investigate rather than make the assumption that the horse is fed 3 times a day by my old mate and therefore he cant have a problem.

I suggest you change your vet, and your pro -
 
If I were you then I think you should trust you're trainer. May not be what I would do but that doesn't mean squat. I'm saying this because it's already the way the horse has been done. So you can see how it pans out. He's already been in that program. But really the signs your horse is giving you is that of a horse who is frustrated and probably some pain. A course of gastrogard isn't going to break the bank nor will it hurt him. Could the frustration be from not being in the program. Maybe. Could it be from too much too soon. Maybe. I'm afraid no definitive answers can be given over an Internet which is why best to stick with what your trainer says. Sorry I wasn't more helpful to you.

Terri
 
I havent read every reply but have read enough I think to have an opinion...poor, poor horse. Sorry but imo the treatment of this horse has obviously caused serious mental and probably physical issues that would be considered cruel if he wasnt such an amazingly talented horse with alot of peoples ego's riding on his back.
You clearly think alot of this horse but seem reluctant/blind to the fact that talented or not this horse is clearly not ready for the questions being asked of it.
 
my little mare was backed by a friend who gets given very 'quirky' stuff and so far has always managed to produce non 'quirky' competition horses or ponies by the time they go to someone else, sometimes it takes yrs.

but my little mare must be a super talented competition horse in the making cos within three wks of being backed she was walking, trotting and cantering in the school, open fields and hacks-alone and in company.

my friend contacted me and asked what else i wanted her to be doing as she was supposed to be working on her for 6wks-the answer turn her away she has done everything i would want a 4yr old to do.

the point to this is you dont just keep pushing the babies or they will break mentally or physically

for those of you that keep saying he is a competition horse so bad behaviour is to be expected, what came first the bad behaviour or the pushing them too hard too fast? chicken or the egg?

for me my friend above proves competition horses do not have to be 'quirky', and all hers compete from the field
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
First off all high level competition horses do not have quirks. I schooled for a very well known SJ rider in the States. He used to let me get on his 2 GP/World Cup horses at the time. They were anything but quirky. Dream rides. It was nice considering I was getting on mostly youngsters and also got to school the very bratty 12.2. As a matter of fact the pony was more difficult than the recent 150k GP winner. I've also ridden Breeders Cup winners, Kentucky Derby winners, and lots of Group/graded winners. You know what makes them all really good beyond talent? The MIND. And to an extent the people that understand them. I've been on some fantastically talented horses over the years that never put their best foot forward when it came time let the talent shine. Also been on some less naturally talented horses that tried harder and ended up being good horses. So really I just hate the ole "good horses are all quirky" crap. Some can be just as some completely useless horses can be quirky.

It boggels my mind how people can say a horse should be doing this by such and such a week. They're all individuals. Some take more time to build the correct muscles, some less. Mentally some internalize more than others. Some not at all. Just all depends and you can't know any of that until the horse is in your barn and you're working with them. Maybe I may be on the cautious side, but considering I want sound older horses, as do most, I don't ask everything all at once. I try to be considerate. I also do not like breaking a horse and them not having turnout. Young horses being asked to use muscles they never have before and them stood in all day. I don't leave my jumping mare in 24/7. In the summer she competes from the field. Just because they can tolerate being in doesn't mean it's right.

Terri
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This :)

If he were mine Id do a few more weeks with him so he ends on a sweet note and then give him a holiday
 
Thank you very much for all the replies and comments, what clearly shines through is that all of you want the best for my horse and that is lovely to hear, even if some of your views dont quite match mine.

Im afraid whats done is done and hindsight is a wonderful thing so its a case of upwards and onwards.

After speaking to my trainer, vet and taking advice from people on this forum this is my plan of action.

1. Be more workman like with him when I handle him as he is not the pet he once was but also give him a pat and cuddle when HE wants it opposed to when I may want it.

2. Analyze feed even though im sure ive already got that right but re check it.

3. Continue with ad lib hay through the night and add some toys to stable and maybe a stable mirror.

4. Turn out as usual but bring in a little earlier and do some ground work which is more playful than taxing to keep the mind occupied.

5. Box him up to trainer twice a week as he is a far better rider than me and he is ultimately going to compete, and see how this goes, if it doesnt seem successful then turn away completely.

6. Get vet to check for ulcers, no good second ghessing this issue, rather illiminate problem.

7. Be very careful what I wish for in the future as I might just get it!!!!
 
My little mare is very biddable. I'm sure she would jump a four foot spread if I asked. Or at least she would give it her very best shot as she is a nice little thing. When I backed her at Christmas last year I walked trotted and cantered in the first three rides. It isn't because she is super talented that she managed this, just because she is willing :confused: Because she was willing I had to be very strict with myself not to ask too much too early as when they seem confident and capable I think that's very easy to do.

Anyway, sounds like you have a plan so good luck :)
 
Patch1234 - i disagree on two points but its none of my buisness:-

1. for how much a course of gastroguard costs just put him on it - it wont hurt him if he doesnt need it - but you dont want to send him for a scan.

2. Boxing him back to this so called proffessional twice a week - sorry i just cannot get my head round why,when the clear message appears to be that 95% of folk think that this person has pushed him too hard and too fast would you want to subject your horse going back there.

Lets just hope he boxes ok after a week of going back there.
 
OMG YOU ARE SENDING HIM BACK :eek:

Even just for a few days a week - this horse has been traumatised by something that went on there - isn't that obvious ??

Good God, that poor,poor horse. :mad: GIVE HIM A BREAK - it's not all about MONEY and BADMINTON !!!!!!!

In fact I am so shocked, I am starting to think this may be troll post ?
 
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I've been reading this post with interest because I have a 3 year old would-be-competition-horse being backed by a pro at the moment, and I know first hand how difficult it is to second guess somebody's techniques (whether or not you personally agree with them) when they are a fabulous rider with top class horses. I spend half my time worrying that mine is being pushed too hard, that I wouldn't use this or that gadget that the trainer is using, that he isn't getting enough turnout, etc, etc. And mine has gone from being a big, soft cuddly baby to being a bit grumpy and standoffish in the stable. So I totally sympathize with you, OP. FWIW I think you are doing exactly the right thing in following the advice given by your trainer and vet, who do actually know your horse after all. Hopefully you will see improvements - if not you may need to rethink, but it sounds sensible as a first port of call.

Oh, and a charcoal supplement like Gastro-Kalm might be a good idea as a preventative measure.
 
Shysmum - Im definately not a troll and feel quite offended by that asumption.

The trainer is an excellent rider as i said before, the horse will not be staying there he will only be there for about an hour with me present then he will come home.

Ive never said the riding or training was wrong it was the way he behaved when he came home that worries me. He is not afraid of the trainer infact he snuggles him alot so i cannot see why it is a mistake to have him ridden by him.

I think perhaps this is being distorted a bit which is a great pity as i have recieved some excellent advice and comments on this forum and if im seen as a troll I wont bother again.
 
patch1234 said:
My 4 year old was sent away to be backed and schooled with a very professional rider. His backing was fantastic and he has turned into an up and coming eventer with huge potential.

Before he went away he was mild mannered, virtually unspookable, kind and willing. He was good in the stable and easily rugged, booted ect.

Since coming home he weaves in the stable quite violently at feed time, he smashes his head on any one trying to sort out his rugs, he will not stand still to be groomed, he is bolshy in the stable and outside and tonight he tried to bite both myself and his regular groom.

He was kept in nearly 24/7 at the backing yard (i just found this out) but ridden every day. He was at the yard 12 weeks due to being so impressive with his training but I felt he should come home for a break.

I tried to lunge him and he went beserk, but did eventually calm down but he is becoming more impossible as the days go on.

I turn him out 8am - 5pm with a friend he comes in at night as fields very wet. He is fed adlib hay and a high fibre feed from chestnut horse feeds for horses at rest, he does get a small amount of speedi beet added, this is morning and night.

Please can any one advice as I am an experienced horse owner but this personality change is the most dramatic i have seen.
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Seems more like a normal worried person asking for advice than a troll :( I don't see it myself as it's not that extreme but then I like a more welcoming forum;)
 
Im very offended with the troll comments if you read previous comments some very knowledgeable people have advised i continue with trainer, so this is what i will do.

WHAT A PITY YOU HAVE RUINED THIS THREAD.
 
The trainer may be an "excellent rider" but he has knackered up your horse !!!!! And you are sending that poor horse back, against every bit of evidence. I loathe posts like this - why bother posting if you are going to send the horse back anyway ?

THAT is why I believe you are a troll. This is your first posting on here, and it's a very contraversial one.
 
patch1234 said:
Shysmum - Im definately not a troll and feel quite offended by that asumption.

The trainer is an excellent rider as i said before, the horse will not be staying there he will only be there for about an hour with me present then he will come home.

Ive never said the riding or training was wrong it was the way he behaved when he came home that worries me. He is not afraid of the trainer infact he snuggles him alot so i cannot see why it is a mistake to have him ridden by him.

I think perhaps this is being distorted a bit which is a great pity as i have recieved some excellent advice and comments on this forum and if im seen as a troll I wont bother again.
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Don't leave hun the advice is great most of the time.
 
I don't think you are a troll but you have disregarded pretty much what everyone said ie turn him away.

If you don't want to turn away then I would personally just hack him out. I think twice weekly lessons is too much for any 4yr old.
 
shysmum said:
The trainer may be an "excellent rider" but he has knackered up your horse !!!!! And you are sending that poor horse back, against every bit of evidence. I loathe posts like this - why bother posting if you are going to send the horse back anyway ?

THAT is why I believe you are a troll. This is your first posting on here, and it's a very contraversial one.
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He is NOT going back to stay there, and if i feel the actual place is stressing him he wont ever go back but i do not believe that to be the case there are over 20 horses in training there, sent there by professional dressage riders and showjumpers who are at the very very top of their game. He is not cruel and perhaps i shouldnt have come on this forum as there are some nasty sods on here.
 
shysmum said:
The trainer may be an "excellent rider" but he has knackered up your horse !!!!! And you are sending that poor horse back, against every bit of advice given. I loathe posts like this - why bother posting if you are going to send the horse back anyway ?

THAT is why I believe you are a troll. This is your first posting on here, and it's a very contraversial one.
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It's not that controversial actually the op has weighed up advice and tried to balance her options. Unless there is a new rule that posters must only subscribe to a single view that I've missed:rolleyes:

NB: the why bother posting stuff, leave the site etc is equally irksome.
 
The fundamental thing that seems to be forgotten with horses is that they are prey animals (yes - this is relevant ;) ).

There was some very interesting research done with Police horses during their training and while they worked. It was thought that the horses were being desensitized to the crowds/noise/guns etc... but they found when they put heart rate monitors on the horses, that the horses were still just as stressed (raised heart rate - very high) it was just that they showed no outward signs of stress IE they were willing to calmly walk towards the football hooligans even though they were stressed out of their minds.

I think that your horse could have been very stressed at the trainers yard, he just didn't show it until he came home.

We are very bad at reading animals, partly because they fool us because of their survival instincts. How many of you have taken a lame cat/dog to the Vets only for it to be sound there? Then it goes lame again once home. I've seen this numerous times and it's because the animal doesn't want to show weakness in an alien environment.

Who else sees a direct comparison between weaving horses kept stabled 24/7 (except for exercise) and orphans weaving in their cots in those terrible Russian (probably happens in other countries too) orphanages?

I don't think that I'm being OTT, it's a stress-release behaviour and the stress is caused by confinement and lack of socialisation.

There are many accepted practices that don't sit well with me. Maybe some will dismiss me as a fluffy, but my thoughts are based on animal behaviour.

If he was mine I would turn him away with a herd, but he's not mine, so it's not up to me.
 
The poor animal has been pushed to its limit , it's telling you enough is enough.

Continue like this and it will most likely break down and be left on the scrap heap as a "problem horse" when in fact it's due to being forced to do work way ahead of his years.

I have a 5 going on 6 year old , talented boy, he has super scope, loose schooled over 1.80 - not by me may I add..!! Before I got him as a 4 year old , I turned him away till 5 and he been slowly brought on this year only really last couple month attempting a small 80cm course. He won't start to do bigger untill next year as a 6 year old. But then I want a horse for life not one burnt out at 7 years old.

Please lay off this horse if you insist on not turning away why can't he just be lightly hacked over winter and brought on slowly next year.?
 
What was he being fed when he was at the trainers? 3 x per day of competition feed and no turnout will turn any horse into a wild boy ;) You may just need for him to get it out of his system. A friend's horse came back similarly wired from a 'producer' and he came back to earth after a few weeks.

Mine has just come back from backing. The person I chose:
- Came highly recommended by people in my discipline
- Was very much on the same wavelength as me re the ethics of horse training and management, and we spent a long time talking beforehand to make sure we'd be happy working with each other
- Was prepared to work as much with me as with the pone to make sure I knew what he was learning
- Kept all lessons short and progression logical
- Adjusted her approach depending on how my horse learned each lesson
- Warned me that he was a very bright lad and it would be very easy to overcook him

Mine has come back a well mannered, well adjusted youngster. I couldn't have wished for a better start for him. And me for that matter, as I've learned a lot too.
 
Well there is no way on gods earth i would allow a recently backed horse to be jumping 4ft - could go higher ! is this for real ?

Some of the cruelest riders at at the top of the game - but its your horse and your money.
 
110% agree with gingerwitch

I got a pro eventer and dressage rider to help me with my lad, as a 5 year old may I add , and both this year have said the same, bags and bags of talent, the eventer think he would not be out of place in John Wit yard, they both said lets take it slow slow with him, not rush him, let him mature and grow, mentally and physically . As I said he has only just started small 80cm courses and he turned 5 in Feb this year

4ft fences is WAY over the score.
 
I think, as a general point, that it's worth remembering that a professionally produced young horse WILL generally progress much more quickly than one made by a less experienced person. Simply because a (good!) pro will get it right far more often than an average rider, whether this refers to timing of aids or placing to a fence. Many common problems just will not occur as the rider will have stopped them almost unconciously before they really began.
It's the coins in the confidence piggy bank metaphor- you have to put in a lot more than you take out.
 
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