personality change in my 4 year old since backing, now hes getting dangerous

Ive taken advice from my vet and my trainer who know this horse well, they are both in the racing, dressage and showjumping circles at the highest levels.

Maybe there is a huge difference in the way of thinking between high level competitors and people who compete and ride for fun. I dont know im just totally confused now on what to do, i thought i had figured it out, but now not so sure.

I do want him to compete thats why I bought him but not at the expence of his happiness.

Ive got to try everything until i find a plan that works for him. I would prefer to turn away for a while but hes been back 3 weeks and he is not happy with this routine.

Im not a numpty Ive just not had a horse like him before and have been told the competion types are very different from your every day horses.
 
FWIW I don't think you're a troll. I see an owner who has asked for advice in various places, weighed it up, and made a plan of action on the basis of all advice, and built in some flexibility if it turns out that this is the wrong plan.

Pretty exemplary way of dealing with a horse problem, IMO.

We don't actually know that it's the yard / pro that caused the problems - it might be something as simple as a change in the style of handling. I'm pretty sure a couple of visits a week will show that one way or the other, and the OP sounds sensible and experienced enough to pull the plug straight away if it becomes apparent that it's causing more problems - and has already said that's what they'll do.
 
It's no good beating yourself up about this. It does sound as if because he is talented he has been over pressured and been asked too much too soon, but what's done is done.
Get him checked for ulcers, maybe feed a calmer for a while. I would give him a short break and if possible leave his NZ on 24/7, minimal grooming etc and just let him be a horse for a while.
When he comes back into work can you just hack him for a while?
 
FWIW I also dont think you are a troll but I do think you are maybe a bit overkeen to get going

You and your horse have years ahead together. Years and years for him to develop and use his obvious talents

I will put my hands up and say that I dont know much about high level competition horses but from a completely simplistic view I would also turn the horse away for a few months, plenty of time for him to get fit in the spring, he wont forget what he knows, it will all come back quickly when he is in work again

For now I would take the pressure off you and him

Good luck with whatever you decide
 
Patch1234 - a horse is a horse - weather it be an overfaced 11.2hh welshie or an overfaced 17.2 "competition" horse.

Sorry i just cannot get my hat on with you - a horse backed for 12 weeks has been progressed to jumping 4ft fences - could go higher - why - to ruin his legs? and if you think you have had a light time overhere in NL - some of them will string you up in CR -

How on earth can you establish a correct way of going, build his strength up, cement what he has learnt and then learn to be balanced over fences of that height, oh and go x country too - jeze - that is some going for anyone.
 
I think it's more horses for courses as to whether or not you turn away. My youngster was backed at 3 and a half, was away for 10 weeks during which she didn't put a hoof wrong. I got her back at the start of October and decided to turn her away for the winter to think things over, as I had with my gelding. Within 3 days she went from being calm and happy to rearing when lead in from the field and trying to attack people over the stable door.

After a few weeks like this we brought her back into work and she settled down again. Some horses like having jobs to do, however young, and in my mind I really don't see a problem with keeping them in work if they're happier that way.
 
Patch do you mind me asking why you won't have lessons on him yourself, maybe with the trainer at your yard? maybe once a week and then light hacking the rest of the week. After all it will be you (I think) competing him so surely this is a journey you and your horse should make together.
 
Imo, too much, too soon & the horse is stressed. No idea where the idea that comp horses are some strange species comes from. Certainly not ime. If it were me, I'd do some light work, not all this jumping 4' spreads & xc bs, & gradually wind down to some time off.
 
shysmum said:
The trainer may be an "excellent rider" but he has knackered up your horse !!!!! And you are sending that poor horse back, against every bit of evidence. I loathe posts like this - why bother posting if you are going to send the horse back anyway ?

THAT is why I believe you are a troll. This is your first posting on here, and it's a very contraversial one.
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shes is not troll !!! she only asked people what to do :eek:
 
Op, you do what you think is, right for you and your horse, I think he will be better with the pro for now.
To all those that are jumping to conclusion that the pro is in the wrong, maybe the horse is simply happier in the more demanding work now he is fit. Don't take this the wrong way op, but you sent a mini metro and have been sent back a sports car which is what you wanted but now he us prob a bit bored with you and needs the stimulation and work to be settled.
I had a horse come to me recently that was with me as he was naughty to ride, bucked several people off, wouldn't be mounted and had not been sat on for a year. Within one week of hard work he was quietly being ridden by me and my working pupil with no issues in all three paces. He went home ready to go on, within two days he was being naughty again. Now I don't think that was my fault, the horse was simply happier in a structured routine with plenty of work.
In a professional yard, like mine, the horses will not be cuddled and fussed, they will be seen to and handled but in a matter of fact way. If you don't continue in this way once it has been started and let them sneak over the barriers set, esp a young horse, they will start to push their luck.
As for the work level, he will be pushed more in a pro yard than at home as you are paying for results, you wanted him to do young horse classes, this is what they would school towards.
Instead of assuming the horse has been over done, the likely hood is he is an intelligent quick learner who is missing the stimulation he got used to.
And I also agree, having groomed for and ridden horses up to Olympic level, its highly unusual to have a horse of this talent that is not quirky, to be competing at that level the horse needs to have some arrogance.

To all those who have advised that the pro had ruined the horse, have any of you been successful in any young horse classes and if so how did you produce your young horse to do them without them being put under any pressure. .. not a dig, a genuine question.
 
I feel so sorry for you having to deal with some of the comments on here :( I have a youngster who was backed by a well known eventer. He had some time out but hated it. He really does love to work! He is a highly strung competition horse and when he has times that he isn't using his brain he will find ways of being 'naughty'. Although its not naughty to him its his way of making his life fun! This has been bolting off when being lead, not being caught, box walking and exploding on the lunge. When he is under saddle he is an angel! I have a feeling its the change from the pros yard to being more relaxed with you.
Yes give him some time off, but I think the problem is that he wants to work and possibily a little bored?
 
shysmum said:
OMG YOU ARE SENDING HIM BACK :eek:

Even just for a few days a week - this horse has been traumatised by something that went on there - isn't that obvious ??

Good God, that poor,poor horse. :mad: GIVE HIM A BREAK - it's not all about MONEY and BADMINTON !!!!!!!

In fact I am so shocked, I am starting to think this may be troll post ?
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So the thread has established that this horse needs turn out and has been over faced, currently ridden everyday at the trainers and it has been too much too soon.

OP is moving horse back, turning out, assessing feed, going to look for other health issues and planning to work the horse twice a week and this is your reaction? Why the drama, it seems the OP is going to do much of what everyone has suggested and if the horse is to be worked twice a week rather than every day by the trainer then I see this as a step in the right direction in taking the pressure off the young horse.

With the way you are carrying on anyone would think that she had suggested starving and beating the poor thing. Get a grip.
 
AmiRobertson said:
Patch do you mind me asking why you won't have lessons on him yourself, maybe with the trainer at your yard? maybe once a week and then light hacking the rest of the week. After all it will be you (I think) competing him so surely this is a journey you and your horse should make together.
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I will eventually ride him but not good enough for the level of competition he is aimed at, so dont want to do something stupid and upset him whilst so young. His training is aimed at a horse heading for the higher levels not a general hacking horse.
 
littlelegs said:
Imo, too much, too soon & the horse is stressed. No idea where the idea that comp horses are some strange species comes from. Certainly not ime. If it were me, I'd do some light work, not all this jumping 4' spreads & xc bs, & gradually wind down to some time off.
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Bingo ...... We have a winner ^^^^

Definitely sounds like to much to soon. And if youve any hope of unscrambling his brain, he needs to be allowed to be a horse for a while.
If he was mine he'd then go back to building on the basics of building muscle, learning balance and progressing at a normal, not accelerated rate.
It sounds like he's had a lovely willing trainable temperament and been pushed to far. at the end of the day he's yours and you'll make the choice, the pro has nothing to lose, you on the other and have much to lose.
Ive never heard of problems taking a horse to slow, but plenty when its been done to fast
 
patch1234 said:
I will eventually ride him but not good enough for the level of competition he is aimed at, so dont want to do something stupid and upset him whilst so young. His training is aimed at a horse heading for the higher levels not a general hacking horse.
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Ok but will you not be competing him yourself? I don't understand why you would have a horse you won't compete yourself (sorry not trying to sound rude at all) I can understand having a horse at that level if you are at that level yourself but otherwise where is the joy in ownership? Unless you are producing to sell on.
I plan on eventing my 4yr old in the future and it will be me riding her. I have weekly lessons in just dressage at the moment with a lady (who has trained olympic horses and has done training at the spanish dressage school) as that for me is the foundation of our ridden bond and then we have 1 other schooling session on our own (20mins) and then 3 hacks per week but schooling while we are out. I will start to jump her next year (she has already jumped but want her balanced first and confident before we start properly) and also planning on doing some xc country clinics next summer.
The pleasure of owning my youngster is the work that I do with her and the bond that we have. She is not a general hacking horse and she is also very bright and eager and I don't want to break that. I would never dream of sending her anywhere for someone else to train but that doesn't mean I don't have the support of a professional trainer who comes to me but she also makes sure that I am learning how to educate my horse properly as well as teaching the horse.
 
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patch1234 said:
I will eventually ride him but not good enough for the level of competition he is aimed at, so dont want to do something stupid and upset him whilst so young. His training is aimed at a horse heading for the higher levels not a general hacking horse.
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The sales and dealers are riddled with young quality comp horses who've had their brains fried by to much to soon, never got to hack, stabled and jump,jump,jumped, then when theyve had it, they switch off, cant de compress, cant hack, as they dont know how, please think long and hard about what youre planning to do with this horse
 
I have not read all 11 pages on this - but what I have scanned through - it seems that every expert has a view!
So OK here comes another 'expert' to have a view!
But hopefully a more simplistic one - OP, turn the horse out for a few weeks, and resist doing anything with him, other than what you did before he went to be broken.
Then when he has returned to the horse you knew and loved, gently re-introduce some education - tack him up, leave him (day one) Tack him up take him for a walk (day two) if all well - maybe long rein him. Get a knowledgable friend to help you re-back him in a safe area. Take him for hacks with quiet horses, and don't ask too many questions. When he is more settled then maybe the 'event' training can come on slowly.......
There is backing (which actually can take days - hours if you subscribe to the Monty Roberts school of thought) and breaking and schooling that can take months / years. It is all (in my view) about building on positive experiences, and then giving the horse time to think on that and learn for itself - like kids, they all learn and develop differently.
I am riding a youngster myself - that was simply backed (not schooled) and I am attempting to do that element myself - we are into about week four / five now (and have gone know where near a school) it is all done on hacks - mostly out on his own, meeting new things, growing in confidence - so far all is good (but I do know that sooner rather than later we will have a blip) but it is all about relatively gentle questions.
I have over cooked youngsters in the past - easy to do, if they are showing talent, and they can over night go from being angels to devils.
Good luck, hopefully your horse will return to his normal routine, feel happy again, and will turn out to be lovely.
 
Good to see the 'best' of the forum in action.
With so many experts I cannot understand why the standards in this country are not better!
 
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theres been some great advice and thoughts here already(and some HUGE over reactions but hey it's HHO )but one question which sprang to mind and i don't think has come up , when you collected your horse from the trainer what routine did they suggest to you, did they advise to turn the horse away or to keep working him?
My friend sent a 3 yr old away for backing , she was under strict instructions to just turn him away for the winter once he got home, no lunging no messing just turned away. Now i know your horse is a year older and his training was more intense so i'm not expecting you to have been told the same as my friend, just interested to know what the trainer suggested 3 weeks ago.
 
Op just a small piece of advice. Always see & ride your horse when it is away being broken or re-educated.
You obviously have some faith in the person who broke him, so let them see you around him & ride him too, they will be able to give you help & advice.
A few years ago I sent a promising 4 year old to a top sjer to back & do young horse classes on.
She was so quiet & easy before she went & grew horns & 2 heads afterwards. Not because he done her bad but because she was so adrenaline fuelled with the jumping. She did put her all into the jumping but couldn't contain it just for the ring (like a lot of competition horses).
A lot of good comp horses are pigs to be around & they didn't all start out life like that!
We put them under pressure at an early age some cope others don't, personally if it's a behaviour issue I have carefully carried on & worked though it at 4 they can be like stroppy kids thinking they know it all but it does take years to learn & absorb what is asked & expected!
 
Sell now while he's still saleable. sounds like he really couldn't hack the regime they put him through, do you want a kind sensible horse that enjoys his work or one that wants to get through it so fast he's dangerous
 
I didn't start out competing my homebred are either. Reasons are the following. I'd been away from jumpers for awhile and didn't want to screw her up, similar to OP. However, I did all the breaking with her. Reason 2. I was busy with breaking and then my husband went to Saudi. Reason 3. I'm not good at everything. I've had a well rounded career. I have many strengths but wouldn't be the greatest rider in the jumping ring. I admit I forget courses. Then I best myself up for being useless. So I figured the best thing was to send my youngster out to a pro close by. I was there nearly everyday. For a long time things were good. When she started progressing and jumping higher rider really wasn't doing her any favors and she started going backwards. She was getting him out of trouble. Then he started riding frustrated on all his horses. I decided enough was enough. I had plans to jump her myself but life got in the way. Not so bad because I learned much more about her and I had to become a better rider. So the aim is for next year. But she's sound and happy and still maturing at 6. Mom was is a NH bred horse bred to go 4 miles so hardly surprising!

And just to add a little something. Starting horses is a skill set just like being an Upper Level rider. I'll never be an UL rider but I enjoy starting youngsters the right way. I don't care if your horse was a freebie, cheapy, or really expensive, they all get looked after to the best of my ability.

Terri
 
Patch when you sent him off to be backed was him being a top eventer the desired end result or was it the trainer who decided this was his potential. Also was he home bred? And what were your intentions for him before he went to the trainer?
 
Hacking after 2 weeks, XC, jumping 4 ft, flying changes, lateral work?? Of course he's been rushed and asked to do things before he's mentally &'physically able to. If you send him back he will end up more screwed up than he already is.
Talent isn't everything they have to have the brain and temperament too to become a top horse.
The chap that backs our horses has them for around 6 weeks. He does lots of long reining, hacking pole work. They are not schooled at that stage. They all come back very level headed & happy. We then turn them away for a while.
 
Can I just add, the op has not once said the horse is naughty to ride just to handle, how does being difficult to handle reflect the work he has done under saddle, all it actually tell you is that he is trying his luck in a less regimentent routine. Is he being tied up to groom etc, when you lunge him do you use side reins?
 
OP,you sounds like a very sensible and caring owner,and I'm hoping you're sensible enough to ignore the dramatics and 'those who know everything' brigade and carry on with what YOU think is best.

No one here has even set eyes on your horse or met your trainer so how on earth they can be so adamant and self righteous in their 'advice' is beyond me,but hey ho as someone else said it is HHO;)

Of course there are some fab posters on here,and i hope you can take something away from those who have replied with sensible and balanced views:)

Your lad may have done too much too soon,or he may just be confused with the let down,who knows.It doesn't matter to be honest you have to deal with the here and now and the problems you face regardless of the cause.

For what it's worth I think your plan of action sounds fine,I suspect you will find with some consistent handling,some bonding and down time with you and some proper work with the trainer he will settle back down to his more laid back self and biddable self.
If not then you have learnt what doesn't work and can try something new.You will get there I am sure:)
 
devonlass said:
OP,you sounds like a very sensible and caring owner,and I'm hoping you're sensible enough to ignore the dramatics and 'those who know everything' brigade and carry on with what YOU think is best.

No one here has even set eyes on your horse or met your trainer so how on earth they can be so adamant and self righteous in their 'advice' is beyond me,but hey ho as someone else said it is HHO;)

Of course there are some fab posters on here,and i hope you can take something away from those who have replied with sensible and balanced views:)

Your lad may have done too much too soon,or he may just be confused with the let down,who knows.It doesn't matter to be honest you have to deal with the here and now and the problems you face regardless of the cause.

For what it's worth I think your plan of action sounds fine,I suspect you will find with some consistent handling,some bonding and down time with you and some proper work with the trainer he will settle back down to his more laid back self and biddable self.
If not then you have learnt what doesn't work and can try something new.You will get there I am sure:)
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^^^^^^^
Well said.
 
devonlass said:
OP,you sounds like a very sensible and caring owner,and I'm hoping you're sensible enough to ignore the dramatics and 'those who know everything' brigade and carry on with what YOU think is best.

No one here has even set eyes on your horse or met your trainer so how on earth they can be so adamant and self righteous in their 'advice' is beyond me,but hey ho as someone else said it is HHO;)

Of course there are some fab posters on here,and i hope you can take something away from those who have replied with sensible and balanced views:)

Your lad may have done too much too soon,or he may just be confused with the let down,who knows.It doesn't matter to be honest you have to deal with the here and now and the problems you face regardless of the cause.

For what it's worth I think your plan of action sounds fine,I suspect you will find with some consistent handling,some bonding and down time with you and some proper work with the trainer he will settle back down to his more laid back self and biddable self.
If not then you have learnt what doesn't work and can try something new.You will get there I am sure:)
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Well said Devonlass........
 
Billie1007 said:
So the thread has established that this horse needs turn out and has been over faced, currently ridden everyday at the trainers and it has been too much too soon.

OP is moving horse back, turning out, assessing feed, going to look for other health issues and planning to work the horse twice a week and this is your reaction? Why the drama, it seems the OP is going to do much of what everyone has suggested and if the horse is to be worked twice a week rather than every day by the trainer then I see this as a step in the right direction in taking the pressure off the young horse.

With the way you are carrying on anyone would think that she had suggested starving and beating the poor thing. Get a grip.
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My point exactly why the drama ;) ... mmm trouble started then disappear - I sense a pattern - spot the troll.
 
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