personality change in my 4 year old since backing, now hes getting dangerous

Echo Bravo said:
Sell now while he's still saleable. sounds like he really couldn't hack the regime they put him through, do you want a kind sensible horse that enjoys his work or one that wants to get through it so fast he's dangerous
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OMG he is only being a tad naughty at home after a few changes in management and new stuff , have I confused threads or something.
 
AmiRobertson said:
Ok but will you not be competing him yourself? I don't understand why you would have a horse you won't compete yourself (sorry not trying to sound rude at all) I can understand having a horse at that level if you are at that level yourself but otherwise where is the joy in ownership? Unless you are producing to sell on.
I plan on eventing my 4yr old in the future and it will be me riding her. I have weekly lessons in just dressage at the moment with a lady (who has trained olympic horses and has done training at the spanish dressage school) as that for me is the foundation of our ridden bond and then we have 1 other schooling session on our own (20mins) and then 3 hacks per week but schooling while we are out. I will start to jump her next year (she has already jumped but want her balanced first and confident before we start properly) and also planning on doing some xc country clinics next summer.
The pleasure of owning my youngster is the work that I do with her and the bond that we have. She is not a general hacking horse and she is also very bright and eager and I don't want to break that. I would never dream of sending her anywhere for someone else to train but that doesn't mean I don't have the support of a professional trainer who comes to me but she also makes sure that I am learning how to educate my horse properly as well as teaching the horse.
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If it wasnt for people owning the horses and letting the professionals ride them we would have no top horses as generally the riders are not the ones with the deep pockets.

Like i said this is not a general competition horse he is aimed at the high levels so has the costs associated with that. I am lucky enough to have the funds to persue this. I own 5 other horses 3 are ridden reguarly by me, this one is well above this level and deserves a professional rider and not be mucked about by a lesser being including myself.

It is extremely rewarding being an owner and watching the best on your horse. I will still hack him about later on but he needs a professional rider at the moment.
 
charlie76 said:
Can I just add, the op has not once said the horse is naughty to ride just to handle, how does being difficult to handle reflect the work he has done under saddle, all it actually tell you is that he is trying his luck in a less regimentent routine. Is he being tied up to groom etc, when you lunge him do you use side reins?
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The horse is weaving. As far as I know this is a fairly universally accepted sign of an unhappy horse :confused:

I doubt very much he is weaving through 'trying his luck' so I don't read into the situation what you do at all. All I think we can say is that the horse, for some reason, is stressed or bored by his regime. Not the same thing at all in my eyes.

I think the OP is right to go back to the trainer FWIW and ask his opinion. He knows the horse after all.

I only have one friend who competes her youngsters in age classes. Obviously they are under pressure and yes some are quirky. What I can't understand is why the horse went from zero to one hundred as seems to be the case. Surely most people wanting to do age classes start at three and do a bit, turn away and pick up again at four so the horse isn't expected to learn everything this horse has learnt in such a compressed time frame? Genuine question as I am interested in how other people do things :)

ETS: OP if you never want him for yourself and it doesn't matter if he is difficult to handle at times I really wouldn't worry. If he is happy with the pro (assuming he was) and the pro is happy to have him then you don't need him to settle at home. I was working on the assumption you wanted him as your riding horse.
 
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jesstickle said:
The horse is weaving. As far as I know this is a fairly universally accepted sign of an unhappy horse :confused:

I doubt very much he is weaving through 'trying his luck' so I don't read into the situation what you do at all. All I think we can say is that the horse, for some reason, is stressed or bored by his regime. Not the same thing at all in my eyes.

I think the OP is right to go back to the trainer FWIW and ask his opinion. He knows the horse after all.

I only have one friend who competes her youngsters in age classes. Obviously they are under pressure and yes some are quirky. What I can't understand is why the horse went from zero to one hundred as seems to be the case. Surely most people wanting to do age classes start at three and do a bit, turn away and pick up again at four so the horse isn't expected to learn everything this horse has learnt in such a compressed time frame? Genuine question as I am interested in how other people do things :)
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He did alot of ground work at 3 so was fully accustomed to bridle, saddle ect and was lightly sat on but was very gangly so i took the decision to wait until 4 to be backed fully. He was loose schooled at 3 this is when paces ect were first noticed by other professional trainers who are friends of mine, this led on to the recommendation of where he was eventually sent.

His ridden ability and progress have not been the issue, he is perfectly happy to be tacked up and ridden. His problem is in the stable especially when brought in thats when the weaving and head throwing happens. In the field he is absolutely normal. When tied up he plays up a bit, i do remember that tacking up and picking out feet was all done in stable on backing yard.
 
shysmum said:
The trainer may be an "excellent rider" but he has knackered up your horse !!!!! And you are sending that poor horse back, against every bit of evidence. I loathe posts like this - why bother posting if you are going to send the horse back anyway ?

THAT is why I believe you are a troll. This is your first posting on here, and it's a very contraversial one.
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Actually, some of us ADVISED getting help from the trainer!! There is NO evidence the trainer has "knackered the horse" and it's a good thing the OP didn't identify the trainer or he might be coming after you for libel.

I don't think the OP is a troll - she is a genuine person who was worried by unexpected behaviour from her horse when he came back from 12 weeks at another yard. Some horses (particularly well-bred/sensitive types) CAN get very upset/out of character just by a change of venue - others, who have been SEVERE problems before a move can come to a professonal and immediately be on their best behaviour!

I wonder how many 'quality' horses you have trained?? If more than 1, then you probably should have learned SOMETHING - rather than jumping to conclusions, and being downright rude - just because the OP followed some of the advice she received here - but not YOURS!

OP, devonlass put it very well! I too think you have the right plan of action - and very much hope than in a few weeks you'll be posting to let us know it's working!
 
Hence why I though it was a very high pedestal that he had been set upon. So I really hope you manage to sort out his problems and manage to find a good rider for him :)
 
I'm not saying the weaving is trying his luck but the head butting and general rudeness is! Also of course weaving can be a sign of the horse being unhappy but it can also be a sign of impatience, esp in a fit, well fed youngster who forgot his manners. Please don't assume I am incompetent, I have just had many years of dealing with fit, talented horses, most of which have had one issue or another. I have also schooled and trained horses aimed at young horse classes and whether you like it or not with that goes a certain amount of pressure on those young horses. To compete on four year old dressage classes the horse has to be working at elementary level to be competitive, evening its 90
 
Stupid phone! Should say eventING its 90 cm so would want to be jumping at least one metre sj and xc at home and I believe four yr old bs sj is around 1 m 10 in the first round (happy to be corrected) so yes, its a lot of pressure if you choose to aim for these classes
 
Hi,
I've read all your posts and hope you don't mind me adding to the replies as hope it can help you?
I've got lots of horses, mainly that I have bred but have one that is similar to your boy...he is a 17.3hh TB bred to event by Primitive Rising, very intelligent, quick to learn, uphill. loves to work etc. but he hates being separated from other horses and I have to cater around him eg. I turn him out first and he is one of the last to come in at night. He hates being in the stable on his own or brought in from the field to work when they are all out.
He is like Jekhal and Hyde...when he is stressed he will barge at the door, run round his box, kick the walls, nearly knock me over...the rest of the time he is the most mild mannered well behaved loving horse!
I never work him in the morning if the others are turned out and I bring his friend in with him if I want to work him during the day or I work him once they have all come in.
Some horses settle into a routine after a few weeks but some are always anxious about being separated. Some it is due to being stabled 24/7 and they worry they will never go out again, most settle into a routine of going out every day again but some don't. My horse has never been in 24/7 so with him it's not that but he just hates being separated and left in and I have to cater around him and keep the same routine as I can't change him.
Your plan sounds good to me, so I can only say stick to the routine but cater around him and hopefully he'll settle x
 
OP you are not a troll.

I dont know whether this will help put this into perspective but many years ago I worked for a very successful show exhibitor. The only staff were myself and the boss and she would either buy in or have a 3yr homebred for breaking. These would be brought on slowly and shown under saddle as 4year olds and after showing we would cub hunt them and then turn away. They would then come in and start work in March and resume their show careers. These were always tbs and all had quirks but it was part of their character. Their brains were not fried and they had no stable vices.

Reading some of the other posts it looks like I worked for the devil:D although they did get turnout we were on the road a lot doing the show circuit.

People also forget about racehorses, a lot of french tbs are raced at 3yrs old over jumps, indeed Kauto Star started out this way and he is not the exception.
 
AmiRobertson said:
I don't understand why you would have a horse you won't compete yourself (sorry not trying to sound rude at all) I can understand having a horse at that level if you are at that level yourself but otherwise where is the joy in ownership?
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What a completely ridiculous thing to say!

OP - good luck with him. Let us know how you get on.
 
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I really don't think you are a troll at all, Some horses can be pushed more than others. Some thrive off the strict routine where others don't I agree completely with jg get the pros take on it.

As for not competing the horse yourself well there are lots of people who do not compete themselves and really enjoy watching their horse out competing. I know when I had my old boy who was very talented i was going to have someone compete him for me as I get really nervous in the ring and while I could school him up the grades at home, I fell to pieces in anything other than a local show.
 
charlie76 said:
I have also schooled and trained horses aimed at young horse classes and whether you like it or not with that goes a certain amount of pressure on those young horses. To compete on four year old dressage classes the horse has to be working at elementary level to be competitive, evening its 90
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I don't doubt it. That's why I asked how such horses are usually started. It really was a genuine question as I only know one person that does it in RL :)
 
Ops horse has gone from nothing, to jumping 4' spreads, xc, & lateral work in the space of 12weeks. Whatever you think about working young horses, that's an awful lot to learn in such a small period. Maybe some horses can cope with that, ops doesn't seem to be one of them. Weaving is a stress behavior, not a quirk. Most newly backed 4yr olds are pretty compliant, they're still finding their feet, so the fact it behaves in ridden work means nothing. Just because its physically managing, doesn't mean it mentally is. And if just put down to being a quirky comp horse, then sooner or later the ridden work will suffer too. If he's aimed at badminton, then why risk all that potential for the sake of having an accomplished 4yr old who isn't mentally mature enough? (not aimed at you op, more those saying its normal comp horse behavior).
 
To throw my pennies worth in .....
firstly, no horse is bothered whether they are 'talented' or not - its we humans that decide their fate - they dont 'deserve' to fulfill their potential- whatever that is. OP sounds very like a friend of ours who bred a few horses and hawked them everywhere to train and 'fulfill their potential'. What did she get - screwed up horses that had been overtrained at a young age - rearers, weavers,generally very unhappy horses.
The horse s mind is the same whether its a plod or top competition - their instincts are the same. Their needs are the same . The only difference is how we treat them. With OH[ he did nearly all the work, me assisiting] I have seen enough of screwed up young horses all in the name of competition- and had to rehabilitate them -not an easy task.
And yes, we compete ourselves - top level showing , highish levels BD, ,eventing [1980s!] and general horsemanship-hunting,teamchasing etc . Its totally possible that horses can be backed and trained to compete at whatever level without changing personality. Possible and ideally should always be the case
.Of coarse there are good trainers/professional yards out there - but yours does not sound like one of them!! Any one backing horses and making the lame excuse that the horse will change personality is to me not good at the job.
OP, you are ignoring compassionate advise because you have been hoodwinked that your horse is super talented - no, its just a horse - a horse that will reflect what your dreams and wishes are. And if you ignore the advise on here - to turnhim away to settle and mature [ my God, what are his limbs like already after jumping high at 4?!], or at least refrain from training on till spring , then you are putting your ambitions before the needs of your horse.
 
cornbrodolly said:
To throw my pennies worth in .....
firstly, no horse is bothered whether they are 'talented' or not - its we humans that decide their fate - they dont 'deserve' to fulfill their potential- whatever that is. OP sounds very like a friend of ours who bred a few horses and hawked them everywhere to train and 'fulfill their potential'. What did she get - screwed up horses that had been overtrained at a young age - rearers, weavers,generally very unhappy horses.
The horse s mind is the same whether its a plod or top competition - their instincts are the same. Their needs are the same . The only difference is how we treat them. With OH[ he did nearly all the work, me assisiting] I have seen enough of screwed up young horses all in the name of competition- and had to rehabilitate them -not an easy task.
And yes, we compete ourselves - top level showing , highish levels BD, ,eventing [1980s!] and general horsemanship-hunting,teamchasing etc . Its totally possible that horses can be backed and trained to compete at whatever level without changing personality. Possible and ideally should always be the case
.Of coarse there are good trainers/professional yards out there - but yours does not sound like one of them!! Any one backing horses and making the lame excuse that the horse will change personality is to me not good at the job.
OP, you are ignoring compassionate advise because you have been hoodwinked that your horse is super talented - no, its just a horse - a horse that will reflect what your dreams and wishes are. And if you ignore the advise on here - to turnhim away to settle and mature [ my God, what are his limbs like already after jumping high at 4?!], or at least refrain from training on till spring , then you are putting your ambitions before the needs of your horse.
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Hear hear!!
 
I'd like for you Kristykate to get some of the ones we get in and see what you can do in 12 weeks. Totally unhandled. As in can't even walk with a person and had a head collar on for the first time while in a cattle crush on the way into the trailer.



Un-handled best way to get them so innocent and trustworthy if you know the job, it is so much easier to have them this way than badly handled, with the correct ground work we were on-them and away in a couple of weeks we loved them like that.
 
Charlie76 - not being sarky but right at this moment in time no - laid up with a bad fracture to the leg - not allowed to get up and the tele box has broken - oh has gone to work and i am stuck on my own now till about 8pm tonight.

I was on my own all day yesterday till gone 10pm - as mum and dad away and best mates are worn out looking after two horses on quaranteened box rest - my other set of pals are getting read to go to YHL - so i am pretty board.
 
Random question.. but have you had him checked for ulcers?
Our vets had an ulcer day recently where they scoped 5 horses for ulcers, the 3 that I saw all had drastic change in behaviours. just a thought.
I hope you find the cause soon!
 
Having read the whole thread, I have no comments on the speed with which this horse has been brought on.

However I am astounded at the suggestion that weaving, head throwing and awful bargy stable manners are par for the course if you want a competition horse.

Why can a competition horse not be chilled out and well mannered to deal with in the stable? I see no reason they should be otherwise.

Yes, some horses can be quirky, talented or not. But if this horse was calm and well mannered before, being fit and schooled shouldn't be a reason for stable vices and appalling manners.
 
dornrose said:
Have you spoken to the trainer and asked them whether this is normal for how your horse was when he was there?

Is it possible to get him out to see him and possibly ride him?

QUOTE]

This, I also wonder if the difference in handling is a problem, going from a professionals manner to a 'mums' way, I haven't read all the threads but from OP get the impression of a horse trying to boss you. It could be that any change in handling is giving him the idea to be bad mannered to try and be top dog, if he thinks he can get away with it. I would try firm (but fair) and consistent handling for a few days, be matter of fact, don't get cross and don't try to cuddle him.
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charlie76 said:
Gingerwitch, do you honestly have nothing better to do.
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Echo this.

Gingerwitch said:
Charlie76 - not being sarky but right at this moment in time no - laid up with a bad fracture to the leg - not allowed to get up and the tele box has broken - oh has gone to work and i am stuck on my own now till about 8pm tonight.

I was on my own all day yesterday till gone 10pm - as mum and dad away and best mates are worn out looking after two horses on quaranteened box rest - my other set of pals are getting read to go to YHL - so i am pretty board.
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Do you realise you're coming across as a bit of a stalker - obsessed with this poster and her threads, popping up on various ones to incite people to criticise her and pick at what she has posted.

We get the message - you don't believe what she is posting. Some of us do. Leave the threads alone if they wind you up so much. Its not worth it!!
 
Honey08 said:
Echo this.



Do you realise you're coming across as a bit of a stalker - obsessed with this poster and her threads, popping up on various ones to incite people to criticise her and pick at what she has posted.

We get the message - you don't believe what she is posting. Some of us do. Leave the threads alone if they wind you up so much. Its not worth it!!
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Ginger witch was not acting alone she had a partner in crime last night who started the meanness and troll calling caused drama and then disappeared bit of a habit for some.. Ginger witch did say she was 100
per cent with this person.

Agree with Honey just leave it as it spoils the forum and upsets innocent new members who need support.
 
OP I may have missed it somewhere along the lines, but who is going to be competing this horse? i realise its not you i just wondered if it is the same person that backed him. if you trust them and feel they have your horses best interest at heart then why not just send the horse to them full time and let them bring the horse on from now as they feel it is best for him to stay in work?

i does mean you wont have to deal with how he is behaving on the ground
 
amymay said:
What a completely ridiculous thing to say!

OP - good luck with him. Let us know how you get on.
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Not ridiculous I was under the impression that this was HER horse for HER to ride and that she had sent him away to be backed only to be told he had vast potential, will go to badminton etc and now she felt she wasn't good enough to ride him hence why I thought there was no joy for her from owning this horse.
However she corrected me and if that is what makes her happy then brilliant and I hope she manages to sort his problems and that he really does reach his potential.
 
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