PETA is suing Totilas' owners and rider

hollybear said:
Personally, I have a huge problem with no turnout at all. Ok, maybe in exceptional circumstances and for short periods, but I think that all horses should be routinely turned out every day. IMO, keeping free-ranging, herd animals confined and isolated for most of their lives is unacceptable and I wish that someone like WHW would take a stand on it and try to get the welfare laws amended. Hope PETA are sucessful, just a pity its them, and not some other welfare organisation with a less radical agenda.
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It is not the job of the law to micromanage people's animal care , attend to your own horses care and let other care for theirs.
My horses are turned out daily but I while I would not like them kept in all the time others do and it's perfectly possible for horses to kept happily this way as long as they get enough work.
PETA are agaisnst the keeping of companion animals, that's where they come at it from.
 
All you shouting good news, don't think you'd be out of harm's reach with PETA because you don't Rollkur and your horses live out 24/7. They don't want people riding or keeping horses. They should roam free. It's the tip of the iceberg.

The people are extremists. They don't actually care about animals in the true sense. They don't see them as companions or pets. And let's see, my horses are in at night because the ground is crap and I don't want them wallowing around in it 24/7. PETA could sue me too. Does that not strike a chord with anyone? These people are asshats. And if you send in donations to PETA in the name of Totilas then don't tell them you have animals. Do you honestly believe this is about Rollkur? Follow the money people. Why not Kittel then? Why not Anky?

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
All you shouting good news, don't think you'd be out of harm's reach with PETA because you don't Rollkur and your horses live out 24/7. They don't want people riding or keeping horses. They should roam free. It's the tip of the iceberg.

The people are extremists. They don't actually care about animals in the true sense. They don't see them as companions or pets. And let's see, my horses are in at night because the ground is crap and I don't want them wallowing around in it 24/7. PETA could sue me too. Does that not strike a chord with anyone? These people are asshats. And if you send in donations to PETA in the name of Totilas then don't tell them you have animals. Do you honestly believe this is about Rollkur? Follow the money people. Why not Kittel then? Why not Anky?

Terri
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Yeah exactly! Why not?! Do people honestly think an organisation like PETA can actually get below the tip of the iceberg. I don't.
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
All you shouting good news, don't think you'd be out of harm's reach with PETA because you don't Rollkur and your horses live out 24/7. They don't want people riding or keeping horses. They should roam free. It's the tip of the iceberg.

The people are extremists. They don't actually care about animals in the true sense. They don't see them as companions or pets. And let's see, my horses are in at night because the ground is crap and I don't want them wallowing around in it 24/7. PETA could sue me too. Does that not strike a chord with anyone? These people are asshats. And if you send in donations to PETA in the name of Totilas then don't tell them you have animals. Do you honestly believe this is about Rollkur? Follow the money people. Why not Kittel then? Why not Anky?

Terri
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Thank goodness someone else is clued in! Bravo!
 
I wish PETA would get to the bottom of the iceberg though... Plenty goes on that needs stopping IMHO.

They don't think horse should roam free. They think they should be kept humanely and sympathetic to their needs. Not ours and I wholeheartedly agree.
 
I don't think it is likely that PETA will get around to prossecuting normal pet owners who are operating with the law.

The Totilas case will be one to watch with interest.
 
If this is to be about Rollkur then go after everyone. If this is about horses roaming then they better start suing every horse owner who keeps them in. If this is about horses being able to interact with other horses then batter up to all the stud farms in the world with stallions. Let's sue Shadwell next year because Frankel won't have a buddy to scratch with. Maybe he should be in a pasture full of horses. That's more humane when they get hurt.

I am against Rollkur. I am against abuse in any form. I do not feel I have a right to sue people whose ideals don't match mine. Meaning people who keep horses in or without a buddy. I see many very looked after horses in these circumstances. Not the way I liked them kept, but the fact I could sue people who don't have my ideals is a tiny bit scary.

Again perhaps if PETA was really and truly interested in getting Rollkur stopped, they wouldn't be suing. They'd be taking steps to get it stopped and not worrying about lining their pockets. But they aren't really are they? Nope.

Most of us don't approve of Rollkur. Fine fair enough. But simply seeing this as something to get Rollkur banned isn't actually the story. Next it will be double bridles. Good says a bunch of people. All horses should go bitless. I mean after all I (not me) I go bitless and so should everyone. Next it's competitions. More people will be like, yup, horses shouldn't have to compete. Some of those anti Rollkur anti bridle people will think, well hang on I compete. Nope step to far. Do you see what I'm getting at. It's all ok as long as it's your personal belief system. But if they want to step on your toes it ain't cool.

Just look at PETA's history. They aren't really in it for the reasons you think, but they will get lots of people on board with the Rollkur thing. They didn't give a crap about NYC carriage horses until the man that owns the property the stables are on wants that property for development. Good money making scheme for PETA at the same time as looking as if they care about the horses.

Terri
 
I don't like rolkur (check back through my posts if you like) but the absolute LAST people I want to take up the cause are PETA.

I don't want them on my side. They're extremists. I never want to be on the side of extremists personally.
 
Poor Totilas :(

I personally think it's cruel for a horse to be kept in 24/7, unfortunately not many people agree. If it were any other animal, kept for the same amount of time in a space of the same proportions, there would be uproar. It does seem so sad that he can't even go out for a couple of hours a week just to stretch his legs and be a horse. The isolation thing is strange too, as most horses, even horses that are always kept stabled so get no direct equine interaction, can at least have a look at others over their stable door and chat to them?

Good point about Carl Hester, he is a lovely man and treats his animals beautifully. Turnout and socialisation certainly haven't done their dressage careers any harm ;)
 
This will make a mockery of anti rollkur campaigning.
PETA are not an organisation to be getting behind, infact they are nothing more than terrorists.
Anyone who claims to "love" animals does NOT harm hounds and horses to save ONE fox and call them "casualties".
They are animal lovers when it SUITS them to be.
Terrorism in the guise of animal welfare.
 
Its the isolation bit I dont like. To be honest in all other aspects, including training methods, he is hardly a cruelty case. To find those just call in the local meat market or the middle of town centre roundabouts.

If these horses have to be kept in 24/7 they could at least be given a companion of some kind.

When I had my own place I built yards about twice the size of the stables in front. If they couldn't go out they could at least get some fresh air and wander about. They could also see each other over the fence. Hardly an expensive option in this case.
 
fburton said:
And time to interact with other horses?
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It's not the laws job to micromanage this.
Walk dogs on leads
Go to work leave your dog at home .
PUT shoes on your horse.
Keep it in a paddock rather than loam free
Feed your horse in winter rather than let it forage freely
Intervene when it fights with another horse
Send it for colic surgery
Totilas is a stallion he cant interact with other horses he will harm himself and others is sad but it's a fact.
Whose going decide what you can do ,PETA I think not.
 
joeanne said:
This will make a mockery of anti rollkur campaigning.
PETA are not an organisation to be getting behind, infact they are nothing more than terrorists.
Anyone who claims to "love" animals does NOT harm hounds and horses to save ONE fox and call them "casualties".
They are animal lovers when it SUITS them to be.
Terrorism in the guise of animal welfare.
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Couldn't agree more. That's what I was trying to say but badly :(
 
I don't know why people treat stallions like they're some kind of monster? They're not that bad!!

Now I can understand if you have a horse worth x amount of money, you don't want it careering around a field in a gang, but to be able to see other horses over the stable door, I would say that is a basic right? And surely wouldn't damage him?
 
Goldenstar said:
It's not the laws job to micromanage this.
Walk dogs on leads
Go to work leave your dog at home .
PUT shoes on your horse.
Keep it in a paddock rather than loam free
Feed your horse in winter rather than let it forage freely
Intervene when it fights with another horse
Send it for colic surgery
Totilas is a stallion he cant interact with other horses he will harm himself and others is sad but it's a fact.
Whose going decide what you can do ,PETA I think not.
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No, definitely not PETA - I agree - but there are standards. I take it you've heard of the Five Freedoms...

http://www.fawc.org.uk/freedoms.htm

Being a stallion does not automatically disqualify a horse from social interaction with other horses, although I realise it may be impractical or undesirable in many cases.
 
While I don't like or agree with PETA I do believe that they should be punished for telling everybody they are breaking the law, the same way somebody would be punished for going on tv and telling everybody they've broken into a house or kidnapped a child.
 
Pigeon said:
I don't know why people treat stallions like they're some kind of monster? They're not that bad!!

Now I can understand if you have a horse worth x amount of money, you don't want it careering around a field in a gang, but to be able to see other horses over the stable door, I would say that is a basic right? And surely wouldn't damage him?[/QUOTE

None of us really know how this horse is managed and how difficult or otherwise he is around other horses he is a stallion and I don't know if he's covered naturally yet but that can make stallions much more difficult as can collecting a lot of semen from them.
I dont suppose they let Frankel romp around with others either , one of mine has to go out alone and be double fenced from others because he would cause a blood bath otherwise , we had one blood bath trying to get him socialised and was lucky all it ended in was a bill and one horse on six weeks box rest and he can't see the others from his stable he came though a stable door once and is never settled on the other yard these things are not always black and white.
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I don't know much about it, so maybe somebody could enlighten me - aren't a lot of racehorses kept in a similar way, e.g. little to no turnout? And it's definitely not unusual on the continent with very valuable horses - we had one retired Grand Prix dressage horse on livery who was stabled 23.5 hours a day, with only 15 minutes walking in hand morning and evening. Can't say he seemed too devastated about it - might not be ideal but there are certainly cases of more overt cruelty that PETA could be focusing on. If their goal was to actually help the animals. :rolleyes:
 
Holding said:
we had one retired Grand Prix dressage horse on livery who was stabled 23.5 hours a day, with only 15 minutes walking in hand morning and evening. Can't say he seemed too devastated about it
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Some stallions seem to cope very well, others less well. Some stallions are able to live happily and mostly injury-free in the company of other males (as in a bachelor herd) or in relatively rare cases turned out with mares - and almost never with horses of high monetary value (although I knew one warmblood stallion exception). Obviously, it's much more common with ponies. Other stallions are agitated by seeing other horses that they cannot get to, and would get into terrible scraps if they could. As Goldenstar said, things are not always black and white. However, as much interaction as can be managed successfully is something to at least strive and try for, imo.
 
fburton said:
No, definitely not PETA - I agree - but there are standards. I take it you've heard of the Five Freedoms...

http://www.fawc.org.uk/freedoms.htm

Being a stallion does not automatically disqualify a horse from social interaction with other horses, although I realise it may be impractical or undesirable in many cases.
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Having been a welfare officer I think is fair to say I was present at the birth of the five freedoms at first reading they seem very sensible on second look however it's less clear cut.
Freedom four if I remember correctly is freedom to express normal behaviour ,
Mmmmm so if your wishes to fight other dogs that is a normal behaviour or chase and eat a cat that's normal,:mad: for dogs to chase and kill prey , keep the cat in a few days because you have baby's birds just by the the back door.
Live a short life and die of starvation when you can't catch your own food.
Stop a stallion getting into a fight with another stallion or trying to cover a mares randomly .Castrating and spaying dogs and bitches clearly interferes with their freedom to express normal behaviour but few would say it is wrong.
Now the five freedoms are not a law thankfully because we would be in an awful muddle if they where.
 
Goldenstar said:
It is not the job of the law to micromanage people's animal care , attend to your own horses care and let other care for theirs.
My horses are turned out daily but I while I would not like them kept in all the time others do and it's perfectly possible for horses to kept happily this way as long as they get enough work.
PETA are agaisnst the keeping of companion animals, that's where they come at it from.
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I don't agree that it is not the job of the law to to prevent people locking their horses up for 23 hours a day! If you were to keep your dog locked up in the boot of your Landrover for 23 hours a day, even if you fed and watered him, kept him clean etc, you could certainly be prosecuted for cruelty under the 2006 animal welfare act, and yet you can do it to a horse with no-one saying a word! Its time the law was changed, just because it has been done to horses traditionally for years does not make it right or humane.

As I said in my first post, I sincerely wish it wasn't PETA doing this, I have no time for them and their rididulous ideals, but if thats what it takes to bring it in to the public domaine, then so be it.
 
hollybear said:
I don't agree that it is not the job of the law to to prevent people locking their horses up for 23 hours a day! If you were to keep your dog locked up in the boot of your Landrover for 23 hours a day, even if you fed and watered him, kept him clean etc, you could certainly be prosecuted for cruelty under the 2006 animal welfare act, and yet you can do it to a horse with no-one saying a word! Its time the law was changed, just because it has been done to horses traditionally for years does not make it right or humane.

As I said in my first post, I sincerely wish it wasn't PETA doing this, I have no time for them and their rididulous ideals, but if thats what it takes to bring it in to the public domaine, then so be it.
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I don't think they keep totilas in a lorry.
If the dog was exercised properly not allowed to get to hot or clod I cant see the difference to a smallish kennel to be honest.
 
Horses are not designed to be stabled for hours at a time, they are an outdoor creature, just because something has been done for years doesn't make it right, we don't send little boys up chimneys any more, maybe it's time it was law that horse's are turned out for so many hours in every 24, if a yard can't provide that then maybe it's not a suitable property for keeping horses at, just a thought.

The fields at the yard I am at occasionally flood when the rain is really really bad, but they all get a shared time in the large paddock on higher ground, they don't just keep them in 24/7.
 
Some of the views i find strange. Obviously PETA have some very extreme views, and I would prefer some other more balanced organization tool up this issue, but they don't. As someone said, follow the money. If an animal has great value, is it right to be allowed to keep it in contravention to welfare rules. Apparently so, if you are a succesful, wealthy, sporting group.

Prosecute and lets see if the justification is plauseable and just.
 
Goldenstar said:
I don't think they keep totilas in a lorry.
If the dog was exercised properly not allowed to get to hot or clod I cant see the difference to a smallish kennel to be honest.
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Its about relative space Goldenstar, an average sized horse in a 12' X 12' stable has about the same space a dog in the back of a large car, sounds daft but its true. Also, if you kept a dog shut in a small kennel or cage long-term, you could be liable to prosecution under the 2006 Act and rightly so IMO. Some may scoff at the five freedoms, and they're not ideal for sure, but we have to start somewhere, make a stand somewhere, if we are to try and help prevent some of the abuses which are routinely perpertrated against animals. Sorry for the rant, but having had some experience of animal welfare research, I do feel very strongly about it. :)
 
Goldenstar said:
Mmmmm so if your wishes to fight other dogs that is a normal behaviour or chase and eat a cat that's normal,:mad: for dogs to chase and kill prey , keep the cat in a few days because you have baby's birds just by the the back door.
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Of course not, and I'd be grateful if you didn't make any such assumptions.

Now the five freedoms are not a law thankfully because we would be in an awful muddle if they where.
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My point in mentioning them was that people aren't completely free to do as they wish with their animals (thank goodness) and that, while it is not the place of organizations to micromanage, as you put it, owners are held to certain standards. Also, I think it would be fair to say that the principle of the Five Freedoms informed parts the Animal Welfare Act of 2006 to a significant degree.
 
TBH it just saddens me for Totilas. He deserves so much better than this. I don't know how Gal kept him, but anyone can see he was a different horse with him, so something he was doing must have better for the individual horse.
Whilst this kind of abuse NEEDS to be stamped on, PETA are the last people I want taking up the case.
 
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