Petition to ban horse slaughter in the UK.

Changes said:
Whilst I don't disagree about the wastage in racing, it is NOT the only culprit.

I agree

Racing is totally transparent - every mare covered is recorded, every foal born is registered and microchipped, and their career is reported right up until they come out of training.

and yet there is still the problem of wastage. Is the record keeping really helping them to waste less horses?

That doesn't happen with ANY other section of the horse world. Until the same records are available for every horse, it is wrong to lay the blame for the malaise of the horse industry at racing's door. Racing is not alone in confining horses to stables without turnout - nor chucking them out when they are unwanted.

Not at all, but I don't believe that any other single sector sends as many horses to slaughter

That said, I would dearly like to see the BHA take a more active part in what happens to horses after racing, as I would every competitive body.

I don't understand why there are no outcries about what happens to dressage horses that are no good, or showjumpers, or the older horse whose rider aspires to more than that horse can now give. And make no mistake, this forum and HHO adverts are riddled with people selling on horses for those reasons. Yet these very same are those that are outraged about how dreadful racing is.

I can only be outraged at one thing at a time ;)

It's very easy to lay blame when there are statisitics to work from, as in racing. But it is very wrong when other sections of the horse world who have never recorded their breeding or performance figures then escape scrutiny or a call to step up to the mark welfare wise.

Agree completely.

As this thread is about slaughter, but seemingly having the TB industry take the flak, I'd like to show how the rest of the equine population has to be considered equally culpable.

From a BHA report - In 2006, out of the 7,590 horses taken out of training, this is what happened to them;
Exported 1168
Racing in IRE & C. Islands 209
Point to Point (GB) 703
Point to Point (IRE) 40
Sport Horse/Recreation 582
Retired to Stud 1446
Reported Dead 852
Whereabouts Unknown 2404
Sold at Auction - no further records 186

So, from this, the max number (by adding the last three in the column) that could have gone for slaughter is 3,442. The likelihood is much lower, however, as the 'reported dead' will include horses that have died on the track, or on the gallops, or from colic, or been PTS for injury.
The whereabouts 'unknown' is exactly that - and could well include a lot of horses that are just given to good homes. I've had 2 TBs that fit that bill, and they were never a slaughter statistic.

Given that the year this report was published, over 20,000 horses were slaughtered in the UK, I hope it puts racing more into perspective.
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Interesting reading. I pick out the racing industry because I percieve them to have the highest % of wastage of any equine sport. I also think that if we can change racing, other sectors are more likely to sit up and take notice, whereas if we tackled the overpopulation of native ponies on the hills and commons first, I don't think it would have the equivalent effect on racing. Of course this is very simplistic and what is really needed is for every source to be tackled simultaneously, which I think in all fairness some sectors are doing.
 
OK, Naturally, let me question why you think that racing sends the biggest percentage to slaughter?

There are no statistics to back that up whatsoever. To qualify what you believe then you need to also quantify what proportion of other sports have a wastage rate rate with their horses.

There is considered to be around one million head of horses in the UK. Where are the records for the rest?

I don't condone in the slightest that racing loses control of the whereabouts of horses out of training, but they are the ONLY sport that even monitors horses when in training. No other equine sporting body has stringent controls over what premises can used, and spot check trainers.

A smug remark about not being able to be outraged at more than one thing at a time is not appropriate given the seriousness of the current climate for horses.
 
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Changes said:
OK, Naturally, let me question why you think that racing sends the biggest percentage to slaughter?

There are no statistics to back that up whatsoever. To qualify what you believe then you need to also quantify what proportion of other sports have a wastage rate rate with their horses.

There is considered to be around one million head of horses in the UK. Where are the records for the rest?

I don't condone in the slightest that racing loses control of the whereabouts of horses out of training, but they are the ONLY sport that even monitors horses when in training. No other equine sporting body has stringent controls over what premises can used, and spot check trainers.

A smug remark about not being able to be outraged at more than one thing at a time is not appropriate given the seriousness of the current climate for horses.
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I would have thought the racing indusrty over other equine sports would be disposing of more horses a year because of the fact they are broken in at 2, thrashed, have a higher percentage of serious injuries than other equine sports and their careers tend to be quite short. Its not so easy to then sell on a horse who has been through the racing experience, im not saying it doesnt happen of course a lot of ppl have ex-racers but Id imagine a larger percentage of ex racers are sent to slaughter than say a horse that doesnt jump high enough or isnt so great at dressage.
Witrh other disciplines it pays off to treat your horse well in the early years, if horse isnt great at jumping or dressage it can be passed to someone else who would rather just have a hacking buddy or someone who doesnt take the sport so seriously
 
friesian80 said:
I would have thought the racing indusrty over other equine sports would be disposing of more horses a year because of the fact they are broken in at 2, thrashed, have a higher percentage of serious injuries than other equine sports and their careers tend to be quite short. Its not so easy to then sell on a horse who has been through the racing experience, im not saying it doesnt happen of course a lot of ppl have ex-racers but Id imagine a larger percentage of ex racers are sent to slaughter than say a horse that doesnt jump high enough or isnt so great at dressage.
Witrh other disciplines it pays off to treat your horse well in the early years, if horse isnt great at jumping or dressage it can be passed to someone else who would rather just have a hacking buddy or someone who doesnt take the sport so seriously
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What a sweeping generalisation of racing. Have you ANY idea what happens in producers yards for SJ and dressage?

Don't tell me a 3yo or 4yo doing half pass and extended trot is in any way better than a 2yo just doing what is most natural to all horses, that of galloping. Plenty dressage youngsters don't stand up to the pressures imposed on them and end up going for slaughter, or being sold to idiots in the UK who think they've got a bargain until it goes hopping lame within weeks of purchase.

The top SJ breeders loose jump the foals to see what has ability, those that don't are slaughtered. Those that are overfaced at 3 or 4 are sent to the markets for meat money, and/or then imported into the UK.

But you don't know this, because it's not written statistically for you to find out.

Until the UK accepts what it so far refuses to - ie the buck for the unwanted horse population does NOT stop with racing, then horses are going to continue to suffer horribly.

If you really want to stop the entire horse population suffering, then fight for the one body governing passporting and chipping, and ensure that every horse changing hands (and I include those out of racing) is registered to a new owner somewhere.
 
I tend to agree with Changes, it is unfair to lay the blame solely at the feet of racing, there is massive wastage across the board, and at least the racing industry does try to rehome some of it's unwanted horses. I watched the video of the Irish trainer who had many of his string put down due to the recession and the lack of owners, sad as it is, I thoroughly applaud the man - he is a responsible trainer, it was obvious that he did not like having to have the horses put down but he knew it was the right thing to do.

Compare him with the breeders of the welsh mountain and the exmoor hill ponies who just keep breeding breeding breeding THEY provide hundreds, if not thousands of ponies to the meat markets, I know which one I think is the real horselover!
 
Changes said:
What a sweeping generalisation of racing. Have you ANY idea what happens in producers yards for SJ and dressage?

QUOTE]

No I actually dont have ANY idea about any facts and figures on overbreeding outwith Shetland ponies (in Shetland) my thoughts on this subject are just from what people have told me and things ive read on the internet, but it seems whenever I put across what my understanding of the industries are (which im sure a few others think too) I get shot down, Id just like to highlight I dont have figures or experience of seeing what goes through the slaughterhouses and this is why im following this thread with interest.
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friesian80 said:
Changes said:
What a sweeping generalisation of racing. Have you ANY idea what happens in producers yards for SJ and dressage?

QUOTE]

No I actually dont have ANY idea about any facts and figures on overbreeding outwith Shetland ponies (in Shetland) my thoughts on this subject are just from what people have told me and things ive read on the internet, but it seems whenever I put across what my understanding of the industries are (which im sure a few others think too) I get shot down, Id just like to highlight I dont have figures or experience of seeing what goes through the slaughterhouses and this is why im following this thread with interest.
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You're being responded to in the way you are because you seem to have a fixed idea that no other equine sport is as heinous as racing. But, you cannot back that up, and this is too important a problem to be guessing and hearsay.
My figures from racing are accurate, as are those of the ONE dealer sending 140 horses to slaughter in four months. And none of them were racehorses.

I'm not arguing this to defend racing particularly, I'm arguing the case because the majority of the UK population who are removed from racing won't or don't look closer to home, ie their own sports. And they need to.
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Changes said:
You're being responded to in the way you are because you seem to have a fixed idea that no other equine sport is as heinous as racing. But, you cannot back that up, and this is too important a problem to be guessing and hearsay.
My figures from racing are accurate, as are those of the ONE dealer sending 140 horses to slaughter in four months. And none of them were racehorses.

I'm not arguing this to defend racing particularly, I'm arguing the case because the majority of the UK population who are removed from racing won't or don't look closer to home, ie their own sports. And they need to.
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As I said Im stating what ive been told and what ive read on the internet, nowhere have I said this is the 'statistics or this is what happens. Ive put across what I have been made to think and I am interested by many ppls replies I just dont think the attitude in replies is really needed, in fact my opinion has changed since reading this thread but it does annoy me that every time I post I get a sarcastic answer, surely the fact im still following the thread gives you enough idea im willing and interested to listen despite the reactions Ive had to my posts. Im not saying everything you say im gonna believe but it has made me think about the ppl responsible for overbreeding and will make me look into it more
 
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And just to confirm my above post I did post this one the previous page, so no I DONT have a fixed idea that no other equine sport is as heinous as racing





friesian80 said:
Totally agree, its easy to point the finger at the racing industry but its something that needs to be addressed to everyone in the UK, I often cringe at threads on forums where we are supposed to admire the fact their mare is in foal or they are looking for a stally to cover their mare when you know fine well they dont know the first thing about breeding , they just feel their mare is so fab they must have a foal from her. Or when ppl tell you to put your mare in foal to calm it down (ive been told this far too many times in regards to my Sec B). :rolleyes:
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This is too important a topic to allow it to dissolve into a bunfight. I'm sorry if you feel I was being sarcastic, but I was frustrated that on the one hand you say you base what you are saying on hearsay, and then come out with this statement -

I would have thought the racing indusrty over other equine sports would be disposing of more horses a year because of the fact they are broken in at 2, thrashed, have a higher percentage of serious injuries than other equine sports and their careers tend to be quite short.
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You don't know this, it is a sensationalist statement, not a fact. You can't compare the wastage rate to other equine sports because they don't record it.

You have to look at the bigger picture. And the first place to start to ensure every equine in the UK is accounted for from birth is to push for a single passport body, with every horse chipped and passported. Then apply measures that will hit people hard if they don't comply - that will help stop indiscrininate breeding.
 
i understood that they are broken as yearlings, then raced as 2 yr olds.
5,000 3 yearold or less, trotters who fail to qualify in initial races are slaughtered every year in ONE european country alone, FACT told to me personally by qualified vet who also trains racehorses, what a carnage!
recently met a horse 6yrs old gelding despite having won considerable prize money over 40,000 was en route to the last journey, completely healthy, beautiful horse bursting with health to the tips of his ears now in private home as riding horse.
 
tristar said:
i understood that they are broken as yearlings, then raced as 2 yr olds.
5,000 3 yearold or less, trotters who fail to qualify in initial races are slaughtered every year in ONE european country alone, FACT told to me personally by qualified vet who also trains racehorses, what a carnage!
recently met a horse 6yrs old gelding despite having won considerable prize money over 40,000 was en route to the last journey, completely healthy, beautiful horse bursting with health to the tips of his ears now in private home as riding horse.
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In France, a huge percentage of young trotters go for meat, as if they are not qualified by 2 years, they cannot qualify, have no real use, so go for meat. However, France has the abattoirs to deal with the unwanted, the UK doesn't, and that's where the problem lies and why the title of this thread is too important to ignore.

FYI, The flat horses are broken as yearlings, some are raced at 2, some are turned away again as they're not strong enough, and some remain unraced. The National hunt horses are usually not broken until 3, unless they switch codes as they get older, which suggests that it's not done them too much harm.

Why is racing being considered the main culprit here? Whilst the UK buries it's head in the sand in regard to the burgeoning unwanted horse problems being it's own fault, not racing's fault, then horses will continue to suffer.
 
Changes - and breathe !!! :)

I can completely understand why you are defending the racing industry as it has been picked on, i think this is more to do with the fact that it has most of the facts and figures available for people to see whereas the sports horses and hill ponies are "hidden"!

I completely agree with you regarding the dressage, eventers and jumpers, i think people would be appaled if they knew what went on behind some closed doors and what some of these horses go through to be able to get to a competition area once they have been hammered into the ground.

IMO opinion it is just as bad seeing an 8yr old jumping 160 sj tracks or performing at top level dressage.

And i think you are right to suggest that these horses end up in undesireable places, be that in "bad" homes or at the meat man, because they have their brains or bodies blown at an early age.
 
The whole problem is about over-breeding, too many people jumping on the 'band wagon' when prices were good particularly cobs, coloured cobs and Shetlands.
Some of these people are now getting out with more horses and ponies available than good homes, far better a quick end than starve to death.

I can only quote on Shetlands from SPS March 2011 newsletter and I do remember Gerry Hart of A1Shetnews producing figures for several years of numbers of ponies registered which had increased dramatically year on year

''Last year nearly 4000 foals were registered and it may well be more than the market can
sustain at this level, therefore a decrease can only be of benefit to the breed. I hope that
breeders will think carefully about putting mares in foal automatically every year, we do
not want to be creating a welfare problem for our breed''
 
YorksG said:
Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'
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I agree with this, its a horrible subject but unfortunately it's not going to go away. I would rather see it being done in the most humane way as possible.
 
Changes said:
This is too important a topic to allow it to dissolve into a bunfight. I'm sorry if you feel I was being sarcastic, but I was frustrated that on the one hand you say you base what you are saying on hearsay, and then come out with this statement -


You don't know this, it is a sensationalist statement, not a fact. You can't compare the wastage rate to other equine sports because they don't record it.

You have to look at the bigger picture. And the first place to start to ensure every equine in the UK is accounted for from birth is to push for a single passport body, with every horse chipped and passported. Then apply measures that will hit people hard if they don't comply - that will help stop indiscrininate breeding.
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In my posts I have used words such as I think and I would have thought ive left the door open for ppl to correct me if Ive made an incorrect asumption but as I said I dont think there is any need for sarcasm or personal insults.

Yes I do think that race horses are broken in at a very young age, are thrashed on the track and that there are very high numbers of fatalities in the sport, their career is short and a low percentage that are bred actually reach the track, meaning the ones that dont make it on the track have an early end to their lives.

If im wrong in my above statement in your eyes please tell me where, im willing to listen.

Ive never said it is soley the racing industry who holds responsibility over the numbers who are slaughtered so dont tell me Im coming out with statements which point the finger at racing alone!


Ive been interested and surprised to hear other equine sports such as dressage are equally responsible and its something to think about for me, but this is a forum, why blow your top at someone who is mearly stating facts which have been read through many internet sites and discussed publicy yet perhaps does not know about other equine sports who dispose of horses in high numbers also through the slaughter trade
Surely with my posts you have been able to reply stating numbers and (in your eyes) clearer statistics regarding the sport so surely that can only be a good thing in getting your viws across.

Theres really no need to get het up by comments made, nobody is trying to wind you up and as I said it is only a forum, yes its very important that ppl know the real facts and I think many ppl will have learned new things regaring horse slaughter.

Its not like this thread is going to determine the future of horse slaughter so we need not personally get offended or through accusations, insults or silly put me downs. If one person knows more about the slaughter trade than the next person its great we can share information and hopefully as members of the forum we will be better informed on the facts regarding the slaughter trade. :)

ETA: I very much agree with your last statement regarding chipping and passporting each and every horse bred, and giving heavy fines to breeders who do not follow these rules. I did actually think this was the law at present but im guessing the moor ponies are not dealt with in this way, does the government allow these ponies to go unpassported?
 
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horse meat consumption in france is falling, a lot of the horses are going to italy, a long journey, i know someone who bought a heavy horse recently there, all the others on the same farm went to italy live for meat, and were not slaughtered in france.
its true that so many horses are ruined by bad training and inhumane expectations,
i personally am not in awe of a lot competition riders, and support movements like the classical riding club and the teachings of people like sylvia loch, i find their whole attitude towards horses in general and training a breath of fresh air
in a harsh world,
i admire greatly the people who take their time to train properly over a number of years and by doing so give their horses the greatest gift anyone can, an education, that will ensure as far as is poss that the horse will have a long and useful life and always find a job, and frankly judging by some of the requests for help in training posted on forums there is a great lack of understanding of how to approach training correctly, not only the riding aspects but the long term implications regarding soundness and behavioral issues all of which lead to many horses premature demise and as such going for meat
i think racing is a special case because they have the jockey club and well heeled owners, what action are they taking to deal with their own mess?
 
I think I already answered your questions, Friesian.

Did you think removing where I quoted you saying it was a fact would somehow change what you wrote? :rolleyes:
 
Changes said:
I think I already answered your questions, Friesian.

Did you think removing where I quoted you saying it was a fact would somehow change what you wrote? :rolleyes:
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The only thing I said was a fact was that they were broken in at 2, is this not a fact??????

And no you have not answered my question, you told me You don't know this, it is a sensationalist statement, not a fact.


So tell me is the following quote from me wrong?

friesian80 said:
Yes I do think that race horses are broken in at a very young age, are thrashed on the track and that there are very high numbers of fatalities in the sport, their career is short and a low percentage that are bred actually reach the track, meaning the ones that dont make it on the track have an early end to their lives.

If im wrong in my above statement in your eyes please tell me where, im willing to listen.
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Changes said:
Read the thread properly.........
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I did read the thread properly, tell me where the communication between us is going wrong, from what I can gather I am asking you if the statement I made about the racing indusrty is true and you cant do that, I understand the racing industry isnt soley resposible for the slaughter indusrty but you seem to make out racing is only a tiny percentage of the problem, which im finding hard to get my head around., surely the way the industry works means there are a hell of a lot of TB's to dispose of, if in fact there is not then tell me where they go?
As for the disposal numbers in other disciples such as dressage, showjumping etc where do you get these facts and figures from, links to websites would be great. ;)

I will admit I find it hard to process everything at the moment (in fact my OH has to repeat things many times to be before I get it atm) due to the fact on a high dosage of morphine every 2 hours :rolleyes:
So in all honesty I probably shouldnt be having a debate of any sort atm, but I am truely interested to learn the whole truth on horse slaughter and that is why Im asking questions and challenging your opinions, not to say you are wrong and I am right but to get information from people, inc you.
 
Changes said:
What a sweeping generalisation of racing. Have you ANY idea what happens in producers yards for SJ and dressage?

Don't tell me a 3yo or 4yo doing half pass and extended trot is in any way better than a 2yo just doing what is most natural to all horses, that of galloping. Plenty dressage youngsters don't stand up to the pressures imposed on them and end up going for slaughter, or being sold to idiots in the UK who think they've got a bargain until it goes hopping lame within weeks of purchase.

The top SJ breeders loose jump the foals to see what has ability, those that don't are slaughtered. Those that are overfaced at 3 or 4 are sent to the markets for meat money, and/or then imported into the UK.

But you don't know this, because it's not written statistically for you to find out.

.
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Let me take this quote from you for example, how do you know this, if there are no figures or statistics published then how can you say these other equine sports dispose of just as many horses as the racing industry does?
Perhaps someone who has witnessed this happen on dressage or showjumping training yards can confirm that a lot if the horses who dont make the grade go for slaughter, if so id be interested to hear from them and can they confirm these numbers are equivelant to the racing industries disposal numbers? Or perhaps you 'Changes' have witnessed this, if not how can you convince us that it happens in equal numbers to the racing ind.?
Again im not saying your figures are wrong I just cant take one persons word for it as gospel, im sure you can understand that?
I am fully aware that breeders make up a large percentage of horses sent for slaughter by their irresponsible breeding I see it every year in Shetland at the sales.
 
Changes said:
OK, Naturally, let me question why you think that racing sends the biggest percentage to slaughter?

It is my perception, based on my understanding of the industry. I can't prove anything with statistics, and I might be wrong.

There are no statistics to back that up whatsoever. To qualify what you believe then you need to also quantify what proportion of other sports have a wastage rate rate with their horses.

That's why I said it was my perception. However I'm not quite sure why you're picking this point with me, since as no statistics to prove my point, there are also mean there are also no statistics to prove otherwise. I deliberately said "it is my perception" because that's all it is.

There is considered to be around one million head of horses in the UK. Where are the records for the rest?

I don't condone in the slightest that racing loses control of the whereabouts of horses out of training, but they are the ONLY sport that even monitors horses when in training. No other equine sporting body has stringent controls over what premises can used, and spot check trainers.

A smug remark about not being able to be outraged at more than one thing at a time is not appropriate given the seriousness of the current climate for horses.
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It was more flipant than smug, but based on serious truth. I think that in order for anything to be done about the number of horses going to slaughter from the UK, efforts are best concentrated in one area at a time, in order to be effective. I still maintain that I believe the best sector to start focusing on reducing wastage is racing. It has the stats, so any effect is measurable, and it has by far the most advanced scientific knowledge. It is high profile and has funds. I think it would be easier to start here and work across to other sports, than to start anywhere else.

In saying this I absolutely don't wish to belittle the very welcome work which is already being done in other sectors, and don't wish to brush wastage in any sector of equestrianism under the carpet.

Out of interest, because my friend Google couldn't pick it up, where did you get your stats for the number of horses slaughtered in any given year? The best I could find was this article, which extrapolates to between 5-8,000 horses per year (based on figures given by the two slaughterhouses) or 6-10,000 as estimated by DEFRA (both in 2006 - perhaps you have more recent info?)

What a sweeping generalisation of racing. Have you ANY idea what happens in producers yards for SJ and dressage?

Don't tell me a 3yo or 4yo doing half pass and extended trot is in any way better than a 2yo just doing what is most natural to all horses, that of galloping. Plenty dressage youngsters don't stand up to the pressures imposed on them and end up going for slaughter, or being sold to idiots in the UK who think they've got a bargain until it goes hopping lame within weeks of purchase.
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And what a sweeping generalisation of dressage yards. :rolleyes: Where is the evidence for 3 and 4 year olds doing half pass and extended trot, and these plenty of dressage youngsters who don't stand up to the pressures?

Changes you are good on this subject, but please let's keep it constructive, and please realise that its unwise to dismiss others' claims on the basis of lack of evidence, and then do exactly the same yourself. ;)
 
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Perhaps you haven't seen the high performance sales videos for 3yo and 4yo horses doing dressage? They are all working to half pass..........

Do you know about the electric pads in front of fences that some SJ pros use to get their horses in the air?

As ever, not all SJ is bad, not all DR is bad, my point is not all racing is bad either.

MY stats for slaughter are from a European study. The reason they're not available on google is because you have to pay for them. I can't reproduce the info on here for that reason.
And also, nobody in the UK bar a few who really understand the problem, and the welfare societies, is interested.
Just because you can't find the stats for the wastage in other sections of the horse world (because they don't exist) is not proof it doesn't happen.

In all truth, racing already funds so much - why should it fund the rest of the horse world that treats horses as commodities equally, if not moreso?
 
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