Petition to ban horse slaughter in the UK.

Changes said:
Friesian - READ what I wrote about percentages .......... at least 17,000 pa have to not be TBs ..........
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My good god how many times to I have to say I KNOW the racing industry is not solely responsible for the slaughter industry, I can quite believe that a large percentage are low priced natives, horses owned by individual ppl, breeders and dealers but I have NO evidence that an equal amount of SJ and dressage horses are slaughtered in comparison to race horses! I have just spoken to a friend who has worked on dressage training yards for the last 10 years and she has never seen a dressage youngster sent to slaughter...im not saying it doesnt happen, but Im sorry if your going to make statements like you have you have to back them up before ppl are going to change their minds, as I say id love someone to give an experience they have witnessed where a young dressage horse has been sent to slaughter if it does in fact happen.

Only facts you have given seem to be based in US numbers which you claim are the same as the UK but tbh I dont know if this statement is true so your figures to me are not convincing. :(
 
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Changes said:
As ever, not all SJ is bad, not all DR is bad, my point is not all racing is bad either.

MY stats for slaughter are from a European study. The reason they're not available on google is because you have to pay for them. I can't reproduce the info on here for that reason.

Just because you can't find the stats for the wastage in other sections of the horse world (because they don't exist) is not proof it doesn't happen.

In all truth, racing already funds so much - why should it fund the rest of the horse world that treats horses as commodities equally, if not moreso?
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  • I'm really not trying to claim all racing is bad.
  • Perhaps you wouldn't mind posting just the reference for the European study?
  • We could dance the dance on "just because you can't find the stats" all day - I'd say it was stalemate, as neither you nor I can prove our theories.
  • I agree racing funds so much that the rest of the horse world benefits from, but how to take it forward when the funding just isn't available from the rest of the horse world?
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friesian80 said:
My good god how many times to I have to say I KNOW the racing industry is not solely responsible for the slaughter industry, I can quite believe that a large percentage are low priced natives, horses owned by individual ppl, breeders and dealers but I have NO evidence that an equal amount of SJ and dressage horses are slaughtered in comparison to race horses!
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A bit more succinctly put then me but same gist ;)
 
Friesian, I quoted the BHA article about the breakdown of racehorses went in 2006. I mentioned the US one earlier as a parallel horse society to ours.

Naturally, I would have to reproduce a graph, which is copyrighted, so I can't. The information is on the European study undertaken by the Haras Nationaux. It's a huge study documenting the slaughter, import and export of horses across Europe. It's interesting, because it shows a significant drop in the slaughter of horses in Italy, for example, when the amended transport regs came into play in 2002.

I'm afraid I cannot prove that overproduced youngsters go to slaughter, principally because there are no records of breeding, I just know they they do. But to turn this question back at you - what horses make up the other 17,000?

There are people who work in racing who don't believe that TBs go to slaughter either, so one person you know on a dressage yard is not exactly broad enough to draw a fair conclusion. As I keep saying, I'm not defending racing particularly, but trying to point out that other areas need addressing equally, if not more because they are totally unmonitored. Overproduction is everywhere.

In all honesty, those that send horses directly to slaughter from where they were at work, or in training, are not really a problem to my mind. They are being responsible and removing any possibility of a horse being passed from pillar to post and having a miserable existence.

Unlike those that sell on their unwanteds, ie outgrown or too old, for a few quid to a dealer in part ex.........
 
Changes said:
I'm afraid I cannot prove that overproduced youngsters go to slaughter, principally because there are no records of breeding, I just know they they do. But to turn this question back at you - what horses make up the other 17,000?

I quite believe that some yongsters from other equine sports such as dressage etc do end up in slaugher, there will of course be a certain percentage from every equine discipline that will make up the slaughter stats and numbers. In response to your question - 'what horses make up the other 17,000' well I obviously cant give you exact numbers of how many come from each section but I can tell you native ponies, breeders, dealers and prvate owners will contribute to this number you have provided


There are people who work in racing who don't believe that TBs go to slaughter either, so one person you know on a dressage yard is not exactly broad enough to draw a fair conclusion. As I keep saying, I'm not defending racing particularly, but trying to point out that other areas need addressing equally, if not more because they are totally unmonitored. Overproduction is everywhere.
Absolutely agree that one persons opinion working in dressage does not give a clear idea of whether there are youngsters regularly sent for slaughter but for her to have worked in the industry for 10 years and never come across it does make me slightly suspicious. Im sure someone working in the racing industry for 10 years would have quite a clear idea that race horses go to slaughter quite regularly.
I still dont believe that the dressage and SJing industry need to be addressed EQUALLY to the racing industry, I have no stats or experience or even word of mouth to support this statement. However I do agree that they still overbreed and numbers need to monitored so clear statistics are produced

In all honesty, those that send horses directly to slaughter from where they were at work, or in training, are not really a problem to my mind. They are being responsible and removing any possibility of a horse being passed from pillar to post and having a miserable existence. Agree If horse has issues and it clearly cant be found a suitable home then sending to slaughter can prevent it from a far from ideal life, which may in fact end up in it being slaughtered at the end of the day anyway.

Unlike those that sell on their unwanteds, ie outgrown or too old, for a few quid to a dealer in part ex.........
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The main thing I was trying to discuss with you before was that you directed this statment to me:

Changes said:
What a sweeping generalisation of racing. Have you ANY idea what happens in producers yards for SJ and dressage?

Don't tell me a 3yo or 4yo doing half pass and extended trot is in any way better than a 2yo just doing what is most natural to all horses, that of galloping. Plenty dressage youngsters don't stand up to the pressures imposed on them and end up going for slaughter, or being sold to idiots in the UK who think they've got a bargain until it goes hopping lame within weeks of purchase.
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After my comment

friesian80 said:
I would have thought the racing indusrty over other equine sports would be disposing of more horses a year because of the fact they are broken in at 2, thrashed, have a higher percentage of serious injuries than other equine sports and their careers tend to be quite short. Its not so easy to then sell on a horse who has been through the racing experience, im not saying it doesnt happen of course a lot of ppl have ex-racers but Id imagine a larger percentage of ex racers are sent to slaughter than say a horse that doesnt jump high enough or isnt so great at dressage.
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I still stand by my above statement and find information on the internet to support all of the above (as well as it being quite commonly known throught equine inthusiams).

Let me again outline the fact Im not blaming the slaughter industry solely on racing, im fully aware it only makes up a percentage of horses sent to slaughter as said horses from dealers, breeders, natives and from individual homes all contribute to the numbers slaughtered.

And yes I can accept that horses from other equine sports such as dressage and SJing also contribute to the numbers of slaughter but I CANT be convinced this is in equal numbers to the amount sent from racing.

I quite agree with this statement

Allover said:
Changes, unless i am reading this thread all wrong you are picking at Fresian80 for basically agreeing with you :D
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I think at the end of the day we both have the horses best interest at heart, we both agree horses from all walks of life make up the slaughter stats and the blame most definately should not be placed on the racing industry alone.

But of course we then need to decide where we start in addressing the numbers of overbreeding in the UK, this is something none of us have agreed on and instead of bickering over who slaughters the most horses in the UK we should be trying to find a solution to the problem (if there actually is one).
 
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the bottom line is its all wrong, breaking yearlings, overdoing young horses training, the continued breeding of wild and stud book registered ponies, for me each one is a tragedy
the question i want answered is where does one begin to STOP at least some of it and put the energy of this debate into constructive action?
i have seen with my own eyes horse and ponies loaded onto a lorry without partitions at a continental sale in the presence of a ministry vet in 2004, this is one reason i don't go anymore it is too distressing for words
 
I worked in racing and had no idea racehorses went directly for slaughter.

I think it's the word 'thrashed' that really got my goat in your post, friesian, because that is just not true.

Whether or not you choose to accept that's what happens with sportshorses, is entirely up to you. I can't prove it any more than you can disprove it.

I can back up my figures already stated for 2006 with studies, but I can't copy them onto here.

Tristar, rather than be too distressed to face the markets, I go to them, document and report on them and to the authorities than should do something. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. But the more evidence of illegal activity reported, the more likelihood there is of further changes being made to the current laws.

This is going round in circles, so I'll bow out.
 
Changes said:
Naturally, I would have to reproduce a graph, which is copyrighted, so I can't. The information is on the European study undertaken by the Haras Nationaux. It's a huge study documenting the slaughter, import and export of horses across Europe. It's interesting, because it shows a significant drop in the slaughter of horses in Italy, for example, when the amended transport regs came into play in 2002.
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You can't reproduce the whole study document, but if the graph is a small part of it you may well be able to do so under "fair use" guidelines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

I'd be astonished if the authors (and/or copyright holders) of the study would be unwilling to disseminate their data - otherwise what is the point of the study? (If the report is in fact confidential, one must wonder about the motives for making it so.)
 
Just to clarify - you can pay to download it, you just can't copy it -studies like these cost a lot of money to reproduce, so it is not confidential, just not free.
 
tristar said:
the bottom line is its all wrong, breaking yearlings, overdoing young horses training, the continued breeding of wild and stud book registered ponies, for me each one is a tragedy
the question i want answered is where does one begin to STOP at least some of it and put the energy of this debate into constructive action?
i have seen with my own eyes horse and ponies loaded onto a lorry without partitions at a continental sale in the presence of a ministry vet in 2004, this is one reason i don't go anymore it is too distressing for words
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If you come up with anything PM me please :)
 
This is the HN one - I googled it so it must be publicly available now. Sorry - it did cost to pay for when it came out, I just assumed it still would ........ :o

http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/uploads/media/horse_industry.pdf

I don't know how to get the BHA one though...... maybe email them and ask for the 2006 survey? I can't find it atm.........

ETA, don't forget the import and export are legitimate figures, not the trading from the abattoir queues.
 
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Changes said:
This is the HN one - I googled it so it must be publicly available now. Sorry - it did cost to pay for when it came out, I just assumed it still would ........ :o

http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/uploads/media/horse_industry.pdf

I don't know how to get the BHA one though...... maybe email them and ask for the 2006 survey? I can't find it atm.........

ETA, don't forget the import and export are legitimate figures, not the trading from the abattoir queues.
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Thanks for providing the link Changes but to me I cant see where it confirms dressage/SJer's are slaughtered in equal numbers to racers, if im missing something then I do appologise.
Or maybe the BHA one is where the stats are on this subject? But I fear that figures from 2006 are outdated as the recession kicked in in 2008 Id imagine these figures are inaccurate?

Just to add I have been speaking to a girl who is studying this at college, she has said to me that horses from other disciplines are sent to slaughter, pehaps not as many as racers but it is regualrly done.

She has also told me the UK slaughterhouses have been noted to process the horses in an unhumane way, seriously overcrowded on the lorry, left with no warer and handled in a manner nobody would agree was humane. She even mentioned that skinning horses alive had been video'd but this came from animal aid who I think are against slughter. She did mention though that video camera's have been instaled in the abattiors to prevent cruelty happening on the production line within the slaughterhouse.
Please note I am fully aware all the above could be wrong but did make me wonder if our slaughterhouses are as good as they have been made out to be???
 
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friesian80 said:
Thanks for providing the link Changes but to me I cant see where it confirms dressage/SJer's are slaughtered in equal numbers to racers, if im missing something then I do appologise.
Or maybe the BHA one is where the stats are on this subject? But I fear that figures from 2006 are outdated as the recession kicked in in 2008 Id imagine these figures are inaccurate?
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Do you READ what I write???? FFS - I have continually said I can't prove, as you can't disprove, about the sporthorses going for slaughter. Because there are no records..........

I am showing you that 20,000 were slaughtered in the UK in 2006, which you questioned.

Groundhog day............
 
Changes said:
Do you READ what I write???? FFS - I have continually said I can't prove, as you can't disprove, about the sporthorses going for slaughter. Because there are no records..........

I am showing you that 20,000 were slaughtered in the UK in 2006, which you questioned.

Groundhog day............
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You can be as impolite and obnoxious as you want it wont stop me asking questions, nowhere in this thread have I been insulting and short tempered with you, Im simple trying to find out more about UK horse slaughter.

I will wait for others to reply to your graph before commenting

I fear I will get a less than polite reply............take a chill pill :)
 
Hi there- whilst this thread has clearly got a lot going for it, I'm going to refute a couple of points.
I cant comment on the over-crowded lorry, as I havent seen them in situ, but at the Nantwich Abbatoir they have hay and water. Its rubbish hay and not altogether clean water, but it is there.
And it is simply not possible for the horse to be skinned alive, purely due to the method of dressing the carcass. Following initial slaughter and subsequent exsanguination, the head is removed, I dont think anyone can argue that the animal is dead after that.
 
paisley said:
Hi there- whilst this thread has clearly got a lot going for it, I'm going to refute a couple of points.
I cant comment on the over-crowded lorry, as I havent seen them in situ, but at the Nantwich Abbatoir they have hay and water. Its rubbish hay and not altogether clean water, but it is there.
And it is simply not possible for the horse to be skinned alive, purely due to the method of dressing the carcass. Following initial slaughter and subsequent exsanguination, the head is removed, I dont think anyone can argue that the animal is dead after that.
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Hey :)

So you have visited the Nantwich Abatoir, what was your overall opinion on it, how much did you see?
I am certainly not convinced on the skinning idea as I said I think the artivle was published by a anti slaughter group.
Would be interested to find out if video cameras have in fact ben put in place to insure cruelty to the animals are minimal.
I watched a documentary on ITV about 5 years ago it filmed undercover the day to day handling of animals who go through the slaughterhouse and to this day I still often think about it as the cruelty was unbelievable.
 
Any abbatoir is going to be a bit hard to visit, so there is that certain smell (and anyone who has done dissection will recognise it, especially if it was nutrition/intestine related).

At Nantwich, the horses are kept in a indoor barn, in several large pens, with some bedding, hay and water. Its not quality, but I dont see then buying in the best stuff The horse dont seem panicked, other than any other horses reaction to going somewhere new.
There is a small field, with water/hay for 'overflow' (sorry about the word, cant think of any other way to say it).

Please bear in mind this is an exceptionally grim and tough job (in my opionion), so the staff are matter of fact, but not disrespectful. I think we might see it as uncaring, but I dont feel thats the case.

And briefly, in terms of proportion of competition horses versus racehorses going to slaughter, not even Weatherbys has that information. So the figures detailing them as dead are just that, when passports are returned (known as 'deads and geldings' day at Weatherbys), they state the reason for death, but not the method.
 
And apologies if this has been discussed before, but horses are not quite truly companion animals , such as dogs/cats, or livestock eg cows/sheep.

So I think we struggle with the idea of making commercial profit from them. I was always amazed at the attitude of some people when I worked in eventing of 'oh he/she sold her top horse just to buy a house'. Some people have to make a living from it you know!

The TB industry is just that, its aim is to make money, rightly or wrongly.

So yes, over-breeding and wastage need to be examined further, and abattoirs regulated for the highest possible standards.

Would I send mine to an abattoir? Never in a million years. Any horse I have will be euthansed at home, by the hunt or vet. I dont want him to travel if its unecessary and I want it to be done in a familiar place.

Having said that, I absolutely believe in the current need for abattoirs. Having seen some of the results of some ignorant idiots irresponsible attitude to horse breeding and management, euthanasia is actually a kindness. People dont see that the a few hours of what they consider to be mis-treatment at UK abattoirs dont even come close to the years of neglect that horse has experienced
 
Changes said:
This is the HN one - I googled it so it must be publicly available now. Sorry - it did cost to pay for when it came out, I just assumed it still would ........ :o

http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/uploads/media/horse_industry.pdf

I don't know how to get the BHA one though...... maybe email them and ask for the 2006 survey? I can't find it atm.........

ETA, don't forget the import and export are legitimate figures, not the trading from the abattoir queues.
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Thanks for that, will read it properly after the muck out!
 
I watched a documentary on ITV about 5 years ago it filmed undercover the day to day handling of animals who go through the slaughterhouse and to this day I still often think about it as the cruelty was unbelievable.
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Friesan80, this is interesting. I wonder if there's still a link to view this?

In these threads, most people seem to be of the opinion that UK slaughterhouses are the best and most humane in the world. While, for the horses' sake, I certainly hope they are humane, there is also a certain ring of propaganda to some of these claims. The more actual facts we know about horse slaughter, in the UK and elsewhere, the better.
 
Well said, Paisley.
friesian80 said:
You can be as impolite and obnoxious as you want it wont stop me asking questions, nowhere in this thread have I been insulting and short tempered with you, Im simple trying to find out more about UK horse slaughter.

I will wait for others to reply to your graph before commenting

I fear I will get a less than polite reply............take a chill pill :)
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I supplied you with the information you asked for - the head of horse slaughtered in 2006. You answered me so fast that you won't have had time to look through the document properly, other than to try and find figures which I had already told you don't exist.

You are either being deliberately obtuse, or incapable of digesting what you read. Either way, don't bother directing any more questions at me in particular because it is impossible and frustrating to have a rational discussion with you.

I agree wholeheartedly with you Paisley -I'd just qualify that all commercial horse breeding is about money, right across the board.
 
Changes said:
This is the HN one - I googled it so it must be publicly available now. Sorry - it did cost to pay for when it came out, I just assumed it still would ........ :o

http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/uploads/media/horse_industry.pdf

I don't know how to get the BHA one though...... maybe email them and ask for the 2006 survey? I can't find it atm.........

ETA, don't forget the import and export are legitimate figures, not the trading from the abattoir queues.
Click to expand...


Thanks for this, its what I was after.

The graph cites the source of the data as fao 2006. Any idea who fao are? Id usually expect to find a list of references at the end of the document but cant see one.

Might be because I am viewing from my phone though!

Does anyone have an opinion or evidence on what % of horses going for slaughter are exported, rather than done at an abbatoir? Also, can anyone tell me if horses can be slaughtered for meat outside of an abbatoir?
 
In terms of UK abattoirs when compared to footage of non-UK ones , then yes they are the best.

Are they humane? If you believe that euthansaia by bullet is humane, yes.

Can standards be improved? Of course they can, in terms of better forage and cleaner bedding. But you are asking the slaughter houses to provide a better quality of care than quite a lot of these horses have ever been given in their lives

I'm not trying to dish out propoganda (and I'm not quite so vain as to think that comment was aimed at me!), but as I eat meat, I'm trying to justify my own acceptance of what I think is okay for livestock slaughter and compare it to horses.

I appreciate that profit comes from breeding for the meat market, therefore supply and demand. But until over-breeding is more rigorously controlled (for all types), there will always be an excess of unwanted horses.

In all honesty, I would prefer euthanasia for these horses by a local knackerman, but I cant see this happening any time soon
 
Changes said:
Well said, Paisley.

I supplied you with the information you asked for - the head of horse slaughtered in 2006. You answered me so fast that you won't have had time to look through the document properly, other than to try and find figures which I had already told you don't exist.

You are either being deliberately obtuse, or incapable of digesting what you read. Either way, don't bother directing any more questions at me in particular because it is impossible and frustrating to have a rational discussion with you.

I agree wholeheartedly with you Paisley -I'd just qualify that all commercial horse breeding is about money, right across the board.
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Ok your graph is split into 2 catagories, riding horse and racing horse - correct? May I please ask you what 'riding horse' is classes as? Is this anything other than racer?

When have I ever disputed the number that were slaughtered in 2006? All I have asked you to confirm is that the racing industry sends the same approx to slaughter p.a. as Sjer's and dressage horses which you have told me many times you cant provide due to lack of stats kept - which I accept.

Please stop stressing out if I ask you a question, if you dont want to answer simpy ignore, id rather that than have sarcasm and anger directed at me. As ive said many time before im not trying to prove you wrong, nor argue with you simply trying to understand more about the slaughter industry.

Brigantia - I will see if I can find the footage on the net from the documentary.
 
brigantia said:
Friesan80, this is interesting. I wonder if there's still a link to view this?

In these threads, most people seem to be of the opinion that UK slaughterhouses are the best and most humane in the world. While, for the horses' sake, I certainly hope they are humane, there is also a certain ring of propaganda to some of these claims. The more actual facts we know about horse slaughter, in the UK and elsewhere, the better.
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Cant seem to find any way to view the documentary, but found a few facts on here, inc that all slaughterhouses must ha e CCTV
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/pr_factory//2188//
Some might remember this thread
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=100168

It seems there is no footage of the slaughthouse since 2007.
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/f/CAMPAIGNS/blog//4//?be_id=94

Would be good to see more recent footage of both abattoirs, I believe both have CCTV camera's in place but I wonder if they are checked?
 
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Naturally said:
Thanks for this, its what I was after.

The graph cites the source of the data as fao 2006. Any idea who fao are? Id usually expect to find a list of references at the end of the document but cant see one.

Might be because I am viewing from my phone though!

Does anyone have an opinion or evidence on what % of horses going for slaughter are exported, rather than done at an abbatoir? Also, can anyone tell me if horses can be slaughtered for meat outside of an abbatoir?
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No idea who FAO are, sorry. I've seen it before, but I can't think for the life of me what it is. The numbers on the study will be the abattoir records, I guess.

I believe the export figures from the UK are those exported legitimately to race, to compete in other sports such as SJ and eventing, to breed, to move stable, etc. I don't think there is a record of those exported for slaughter as those that do that are working under the legitimate radar.

Horses slaughtered for human consumption must be slaughtered at a EU approved abattoir.
 
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