petition to make the Grand National safer

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With all due respect OP - horses in racing very rarely attack each other - so your example here fails to make any point at all.

As for whether I am for or against bull fighting - for the record I'm against it. It has nothing to do with whether a horse is used in the performance or not.

However, this has nothing to do with your original post - and I fail to see what analogy you are drawing from comparing the two......:o
 
This is the most common use of a horse in bullfighting. The picador's job is basically to tire out the bull before the torero (who in Spain, at least, tends to fight on foot) enters the ring. As you can see, the horse is charged by the bull and, although it wears protection, is at risk of being gored and must be down right terrified. The picador's generally use cheap, poorly bred horses that no-one really cares about. The bull starts to go for the horse about half a minute in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwY5mi2KaVw

This is what the OP is talking about, I think. This type of bullfighting happens occasionally in Spain but really isn't that common. It is much more common in Portugal and in Latin America (I think this horse is from Mexico but I could be wrong). I can't agree with this either because I don't agree with bullfighting, but as far as I'm aware, this sort of horse is far less likely to be injured by the bull because it is extremely well trained and also very valuable. If the horse was "probably" going to die every time it entered the ring the sport would simply not be viable. Much like with the torero who fights on foot, accidents can happen, but bullfighting tends only to be fatal to the bull. I disagree less with this use of the horse in bullfights than with the former, if that makes sense, although I'm completely opposed to bullfighting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgG_Gwy7Ysg
 
With all due respect OP - horses in racing very rarely attack each other - so your example here fails to make any point at all.

As for whether I am for or against bull fighting - for the record I'm against it. It has nothing to do with whether a horse is used in the performance or not.

However, this has nothing to do with your original post - and I fail to see what analogy you are drawing from comparing the two......:o

See, now I've thrown in an example, it's being disregarded.

The analogy I'm drawing, for the 100th time, is one that is suggesting we throw horses into a sport which has high risk, but it's deemed acceptable because that's the risk we take.

I'm not comparing the fighting- I'm comparing the RISK.

Not all horses get attacked in a bull fight. Not all horses fall down in a race. But the point is that some still do. The point is that it is the risk we all 'take' with horses in these kind of sports. I know horses in racing aren't be chased by bulls, but they have 30 odd horses behind them, all galloping, one horse falls, and if they don't break their neck, the likeliness of having 600 pounds of TB horse land on them is high. So the risks are pretty similar.

It's interesting that you're apposed to that. :)
 
OP, see my post. That is not a bullfighter's horse, it is a picador's horse. It will not be the well-trained athlete you mentioned earlier and the reason it wears padding, which bullfighters' horses tend not to, is because the bull is allowed to charge the horse. It's part of the way they tire the bull out before the torero enters the ring.
 
Apologies to McNaughty, it was not aimed specifically at her (or him). I was referring to the fact that this is about the fifteenth post saying exactly the same thing. The OP had already apologised twice for getting it wrong. I really hate the pack mentality that sometimes arises on fourms such as this. People don't know when to let a point drop and fail to realise when they are straying into bully territory. I'm sure it wasn't intentional.
It may seem like a pack mentality to you, but it's a very emotive subject, particularly atm, and fans of the GN are feeling quite defensive after all the hysteria whipped up by the media.

The OP, unfortunately, has got caught up in the crossfire because she based her petition on media propaganda rather than her own detailed research.

I'm sure no offence is intended. :)
 
Someone mentioned in a post earlier about how hard it was to get an ex-racer to stand next to a mounting block. This isn't a fault, it's the way they are mounted in racing, never standing still & never using a mounting black, always leg-ups on the move. This isn't a fault, it's just years of training. As it stemmed from the horses early formative years, I have no doubt that it will take time & much patience to persuade him to stand by a mounting block for you.

On the speed v fences argument, I would add that I do endurance. After graduating through the grades to advanced, where you can enter endurance rides. Everyone starts togther, & first past the post & passed by the vet wins. Thing is, minimum distance is 80km (50 miles), going up to 160km (100 miles). One horse, one rider, all terrains, all weathers (including in deserts if you go abroad). The reason they no longer do ER's under 80km is speed. The faster you go, the higher the chance of injury. On the fast desert courses, they can do the 160miles, including 5 vet checks for horse welfare at which they must meet strict soundness/dehydration/metabiloic parameters during the preparation for which the clock does not stop ticking, in just over 7 hours (averaging well over 20km+ per hour for the length of the race). Dehydration / cooling are all done effectively, & these animals are kept well hydrated (unlike racehorses). Most will come in off that pace & present to the vet (pulse under 64bpm) in under a minute, including the time it takes to remove the tack (must be stripped for presentation). Even at the end they have to be deemed by the vet to be fit & well, & meet the same strict parameters. I do think there are some out moded ideas in racing, with regard to hydration & rapid cooling, which could be improved. At least these days they are giving them more water at the end (you wont find an endurance horse refused water, even in the middle of a race). I would prefer to see improved welfare with regard to dehydration & cooling as a focus to improvement.
 
It puzzles me why the OP is being subjected to such an onslaught. She has got a few facts wrong for which she apologises, and is only asking for a review of the GN not a ban. I posted a poll a couple of days ago in which 60% of people who responded would like to see some changes, even those who loved the race. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=448128
This thread is not a ban racing thread. If it were, then I could understand the vitriol. I for one, love going to the races, but I just want to see it made as safe as we can.
 
See, now I've thrown in an example, it's being disregarded.

The analogy I'm drawing, for the 100th time, is one that is suggesting we throw horses into a sport which has high risk, but it's deemed acceptable because that's the risk we take.

I'm not comparing the fighting- I'm comparing the RISK.

Not all horses get attacked in a bull fight. Not all horses fall down in a race. But the point is that some still do. The point is that it is the risk we all 'take' with horses in these kind of sports. I know horses in racing aren't be chased by bulls, but they have 30 odd horses behind them, all galloping, one horse falls, and if they don't break their neck, the likeliness of having 600 pounds of TB horse land on them is high. So the risks are pretty similar.

It's interesting that you're apposed to that. :)

I'm not disregarding your example - just wondering what it has to do with banning the GN.

However, if your analogy is about risk - then you're going to need to expand the remint of your original petition by banning all equine sport. Because every single one of them carries significant risk.

And that goes for the riding that you do too - OP. Competative or not.
 
The horse is leaning into the attack! FFS this is not cruel to the horse - it is not distressed nor injured!

Wow.

Anyway, so is this horse alright? I mean, totally safe and all that :) ...

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1709177330443&set=o.156996780994152&theater



Teagreen, if I'm honest, no I don't enjoy eventing either, hacking on the roads has a huge risk, but then I try to avoid road riding and am fortunate to keep my horse in the middle of the country park and near woods. I don't deny that it is risky, but then so is everything in life. However, some things pose MORE of a thread than others. Naturally.
 
Horse riding IS a high risk sport - ALL horse riding! You cannot take the risk out of it - it is impossible!

Actually most top eventers - if you ask them which part of eventing they love the most it is the XC that is because of the adrenalin rush!
 
See, now I've thrown in an example, it's being disregarded.

The analogy I'm drawing, for the 100th time, is one that is suggesting we throw horses into a sport which has high risk, but it's deemed acceptable because that's the risk we take.

I'm not comparing the fighting- I'm comparing the RISK.

Not all horses get attacked in a bull fight. Not all horses fall down in a race. But the point is that some still do. The point is that it is the risk we all 'take' with horses in these kind of sports. I know horses in racing aren't be chased by bulls, but they have 30 odd horses behind them, all galloping, one horse falls, and if they don't break their neck, the likeliness of having 600 pounds of TB horse land on them is high. So the risks are pretty similar.

It's interesting that you're apposed to that. :)

I think people are opposed to bull fighting because of the Bull, not the horse.

The way I see it is that millions of animals are killed for us to eat and the majority of them don't even get a good quality of life either. Just think of all the animals in this country that are abused and neglected, and the thousands of domestic animals abroad that are neglected/starving because no one can provide them with their basic needs. There are so many horses suffering in the world, but all you can think about is 1 or 2 that might die in the national and another few that might get a poke in the ribs from a blummin bull! Horses that despite these accidents have top notch care and are happy and larry.

Why do you focus so much on these high publicity cases I wonder? Do you think YOUR view is in perspective?
 
Hmm starbucks, last image is DEFINITELY just a poke in the ribs :(

I agree that animals everywhere suffer abuse, neglect, mistreatment.

However; this is always the argument of those I argue with against rollkur (I even had a petition for that, but don't worry, that's a subject I'm familiar with :p), that there were more important issues at stake.

Yes, I agree entirely, and I support all those things too; however, we can't just push these things to the side? We can't just turn a blind eye because there is worse suffering in the world.

You could critisize the NSPCC, I mean, there are starving children out in Africa who are dying from Malaria, HIV, starvation and frequently becoming orphans, but then helping children who are abused by their parents or pushed around a bit? Should we critique care homes because their time is being wasted on those who perhaps don't need as much aid as others? I mean seriously?
 
I vividly remember a horse who was around at the time I was most actively involved in racing called Son of Snurge. He was pretty hopeless. He had a loving trainer and loving owners, but he ran at tiny tracks in tiny races and was generally pretty rubbish.

Son of Snurge died in a low grade race at Hexham. Another horse died in the same race. Did ANYONE have anything to say about it? No. His groom cried and his trainer was upset and his owners mourned. But the press never said a thing, Animal Aid probably noted his death and said no more and that was that. It wasn't on tv, it went largely unnoticed. Like so many other races where 2 or more horses die.

Animal Aid have latched onto this because of how public it was. Ill-informed townie public watch This Morning and assume horses only die in the GN and that's awful. But if you want the GN banned (not saying, OP, that you do, I'm just ranting in general!) then you also want all racing banned, because the risk is the same. Doesn't matter if it's the GN where 'famous', relatively well known horses run in millions of living rooms around the world, or piddly chases with a £1000 prize money pot at Hexham on a rainy afternoon.
 
Hmm starbucks, last image is DEFINITELY just a poke in the ribs :(

I agree that animals everywhere suffer abuse, neglect, mistreatment.

However; this is always the argument of those I argue with against rollkur (I even had a petition for that, but don't worry, that's a subject I'm familiar with :p), that there were more important issues at stake.

Yes, I agree entirely, and I support all those things too; however, we can't just push these things to the side? We can't just turn a blind eye because there is worse suffering in the world.

You could critisize the NSPCC, I mean, there are starving children out in Africa who are dying from Malaria, HIV, starvation and frequently becoming orphans, but then helping children who are abused by their parents or pushed around a bit? Should we critique care homes because their time is being wasted on those who perhaps don't need as much aid as others? I mean seriously?

No that's not what I'm saying at all. The point is that race horses are not being abused by running in the GN!! My horse broke his leg after being hit by a car, would make pretty horrendous pictures like the one you posted of the horse bull fighting. Does that mean people should not ride on the road? Accidents happen, but it's not the same as abuse.
 
Ah, but I am not the only one posting incorrect sources?

I think we're all getting incorrect figures.

But you started this thread. And it was incumbant on you to ensure your facts before you set up your petition. It's inaccuracies like yours that make so many other petitions worthless. They are set up by people based on little, no, or inaccurate information - which can have the affect of making other petitions valueless.

As for others getting their figures incorrect. One poster left something out - which was an error, rather than ignorance.....
 
Wow.

Anyway, so is this horse alright? I mean, totally safe and all that :) ...

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1709177330443&set=o.156996780994152&theater



Teagreen, if I'm honest, no I don't enjoy eventing either, hacking on the roads has a huge risk, but then I try to avoid road riding and am fortunate to keep my horse in the middle of the country park and near woods. I don't deny that it is risky, but then so is everything in life. However, some things pose MORE of a thread than others. Naturally.

Aaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! You've mentally scarred me for life!
 
But you started this thread. And it was incumbant on you to ensure your facts before you set up your petition. It's inaccuracies like yours that make so many other petitions worthless. They are set up by people based on little, no, or inaccurate information - which can have the affect of making other petitions valueless.

As for others getting their figures incorrect. One poster left something out - which was an error, rather than ignorance.....

However I stated that I cocked up, twice, yet still getting shot at?

Yes I've picked up a new 'subject' but most topics are inevitable going to go on a tangent and head somewhere else.

I will edit my figures, however my petition isn't totally incorrect. I've now got a sponsor, Heather Moffett, who like I stated earlier, husband was part of the racing industry, who can hopefully amend where I went wrong.
 
However I stated that I cocked up, twice, yet still getting shot at?

Yes I've picked up a new 'subject' but most topics are inevitable going to go on a tangent and head somewhere else.

I will edit my figures, however my petition isn't totally incorrect. I've now got a sponsor, Heather Moffett, who like I stated earlier, husband was part of the racing industry, who can hopefully amend where I went wrong.

And you have stood up well to the pack. :) It seems strange to me that even people like Amy who agree with some of what you are wanting (ie to make the GN safer), are pedantically hanging on to some incorrect figures despite your acknowledgement of your error. Obviously, I am missing something here.
 
And you have stood up well to the pack. :) It seems strange to me that even people like Amy who agree with some of what you are wanting (ie to make the GN safer), are pedantically hanging on to some incorrect figures despite your acknowledgement of your error. Obviously, I am missing something here.

I've not quoted any figures.......
 
But you started this thread. And it was incumbant on you to ensure your facts before you set up your petition. It's inaccuracies like yours that make so many other petitions worthless. They are set up by people based on little, no, or inaccurate information - which can have the affect of making other petitions valueless.

As for others getting their figures incorrect. One poster left something out - which was an error, rather than ignorance.....

You have been here a long time. Maybe you are aware of some rule that I am not, that means anyone who makes a mistake in their OP can expect to be ripped to shreads by the mob even if they apologise for said errors. And that anyone else who also makes a mistake (so long as you like them) can be excused as it is only an error. :rolleyes:
 
Oh, and following on from my Son of Snurge post, there was the 2 flat horses that died on Grand National day. But people are forgetting about them too. Doesn't that make flat racing just as unsafe as the Grand National...2 horses died in the GN.....2 horses died in Son of Snurge's low grade chase....2 horses died on the flat....

But then I bet if you count the number of horses who died in field accidents/illnesses today, it'd be 2 or more.

Moral is...horses are risky. Racing is risky. If you want to eliminate the risk, ban racing. But then you'd have to ban so many other things...

Actually, I want to apologise to old Snurgy for getting where he died wrong in my original post about it....I think it was Sedgefield we were at that day, not Hexham. That was another death...in another low grade race...that no one got hyped up about...
 
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You have been here a long time. Maybe you are aware of some rule that I am not, that means anyone who makes a mistake in their OP can expect to be ripped to shreads by the mob even if they apologise for said errors. And that anyone else who also makes a mistake (so long as you like them) can be excused as it is only an error. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Thanks for sticking up for me, wagtail :)

It's okay, have you ever been involved with the pro-rollkur or Parelli enthusiasts? They can be even nastier. Without my letting my head expand, I've debated with Linda Parelli, HHO is no match ;)

I know this forum has quite a reputation, but I didn't think it was as bad as it was made out. I respect though, that I've provoked this and that they are defending what they believe in. So that's fine :)
 
You have been here a long time. Maybe you are aware of some rule that I am not, that means anyone who makes a mistake in their OP can expect to be ripped to sgreads by the mob even if they apologise for said errors. And that anyone else who also makes a mistake (so long as you like them) can be excused as it is only an error. :rolleyes:

Actually Wagail - I don't think that this poster has been ripped to threads. Ok, the odd post has been a bit over the top, but mostly she's been corrected.

When you are asking people to support something with a view to making changes in an organisation or policy within a government then it is your responsibility to research your proposal for the facts surrounding your cause, before putting together a petition.

The OP has, for the most part, merely been countered, corrected or intelligently argued with.

We can all make mistakes and frequently do. But when people insist on taking the higher moral ground it would be useful of them to know exactly what ground it is they are standing on.
 
Oh, and following on from my Son of Snurge post, there was the 2 flat horses that died on Grand National day. But people are forgetting about them too. Doesn't that make flat racing just as unsafe as the Grand National...2 horses died in the GN.....2 horses died in Son of Snurge's low grade chase....2 horses died on the flat....

But then I bet if you count the number of horses who died in field accidents/illnesses today, it'd be 2 or more.

Moral is...horses are risky. Racing is risky. If you want to eliminate the risk, ban racing. But then you'd have to ban so many other things...

I totally see where you're coming from with field incidents of course. However, whilst obviously even being in a field poses a risk, you just don't expect a course, like GN, to have quite a high proportion of deaths.

I suppose because it's quite a publicised thing, and also it's in quite a small 'area', you do tend to note the death rates a lot more.

Again, I'm not suggesting we ban the GN.

I'll bold face it this time, as obviously not been heard lol
 
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