Pets as Therapy - crazy, crazy world

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gunnergundog

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For the last twenty years or so I have had at least one of my dogs qualified as a PAT dog.

Generally, we go twice a week to visit people in care homes, sometimes in hospital, sometimes to schools as part of a reading programme and very occasionally to a local university to help combat student stress.

Today a communication was sent out saying that raw fed dogs would no longer be welcome as PAT dogs. Oh well, I guess I now have a couple of evenings spare to visit the local pub or some other such beneficial activity.

Absolutely crazy. What next? Raw fed dogs not allowed out in public??
 
That's mental. Are you taking this to the canine press?
It's OK if your dog is fat, has rotten teeth and it poos orange Mr Whippies, I take it....
(PSA: I feed my dog mostly kibble, I am just taking this point to its logical conclusion)
 
Seems pretty sensible? You know and accept the risks and presumably don’t have anyone immunocompromised. People in hospital aren’t being given that choice. Even at the Vets we barrier nurse raw fed dogs. Doesn’t seem that bizarre?
 
Barrier nursing for raw fed dogs - really, as a practice policy? I ate my lunch in a veterinary practice today surrounded by a polite swarm of raw-fed staff dogs. (It was a bacon sandwich and I don't like crusts, I was very popular!)

There have been plenty of kibble recalls for salmonella contamination...
 
blackcob said:
Barrier nursing for raw fed dogs - really, as a practice policy? I ate my lunch in a veterinary practice today surrounded by a polite swarm of raw-fed staff dogs. (It was a bacon sandwich and I don't like crusts, I was very popular!)

There have been plenty of kibble recalls for salmonella contamination...
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are you immunocompromised though? can you imagine what would happen if a nursing home had someone contract and die from salmonella, C difficile (which is a huge problem in geriatric wards) etc from a therapy dog? or even if it got out that there were RAW fed dogs on the premises prior to that?
 
Yup! RVC, my previous work and this work all have the same policy. Think it’s pretty routine as gold standard. I wouldn’t be too concerned about myself eating lunch around raw fed dogs but I would be concerned about my immunosuppressed patients sharing a nurse or a bowl with one.
 
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I accept the point about immunocompromised patients but I still don't quite see their reasoning - isn't any dog potentially a vector for transmission? Kibble can be contaminated, incorrectly prepared and stored human food can be contaminated, dogs eat all sorts of unpleasant dead things etc.

Some of the raw food manufacturers are held to a vastly higher standard than in meat for human consumption (zero salmonella in Natures Menu for example).

I note the recent study into Dutch brands of commercial raw food - but is there evidence that dogs fed on those contaminated diets have significantly higher levels of bacteria in their mouths and on their coats than do dry fed dogs, and that it sheds/transmits/results in clinical cases in humans?

Disclaimer: I don't have a PAT dog, I use kibble as well as raw, I don't really have an agenda, I'm just poking at the logic of their statement. :p

rara007 said:
Yup! RVC, my previous work and this work all have the same policy. Think it’s pretty routine as gold standard.
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A new one on me, I had no idea. Is it something you ask on admission?
 
well steak should be essentially sterile off the line so it's only really a spoilage bacteria concern. I know less about fish ;).

I wonder if insurance has thrown it up?
 
I forgot about the egg :D, I guess I'd hope it had a lion on it ;)

I do however also have an image of your relative stroking you....

Do the dogs have to use the alcohol gel too?
 
blackcob said:
Some of the raw food manufacturers are held to a vastly higher standard than in meat for human consumption (zero salmonella in Natures Menu for example).
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yet didn't NM have a recall due to salmonella (or maybe listeria) last year from turkey? and they routinely screen for campy, salmonella and listeria but there are plenty of other nasties-especially when you are working with the immunocompromised. as I said, the perceived risk may be enough.
 
blackcob said:
A new one on me, I had no idea. Is it something you ask on admission?
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Yes even the most routine of routines we make sure we know their home routine and diet.

Humans also tend to wear underwear and trousers and not lick when visiting their relatives!
 
No licking, I had my hand crushed while the other hand self administered morphine and the mouth talked like a foghorn across the whole ward lol.
I don't encourage my dogs to lick, myself or anyone else which may colour my opinion somewhat.....
 
Here in Oz they test the therapy dogs every 3 months if they are due to be in touch with the immunocompromised, in the hopes of catching carriers before they spread what they are carrying to the most at risk. They advise against feeding any feeding of raw chicken in particular if you want to enter the hospitals etc due to the risks involved.
Personally I wouldn't want a raw fed dog in contact with my immunocompromised kids or family members and would be extremely pissed off if they were exposed to one in a hospital while at their weakest....this isn't exactly an unknown risk.
Campylobacter salmonella etc could quite easily kill off an immunocompromised person and given we know both are a risk with feeding raw especially chicken, with documented cases of transmission via pets(google scholar has several cases,and the new dutch study showing contamination issues in even the commercial food has gotten a lot of publicity)... This isn't that massive of a surprise to me.Same as the blood donor policies....its risk assessment.
A healthy person is one thing.....the old,the very young and the immunosuppressed will always be most at risk of death and severe illness from these sort of bugs.

We don't barrier nurse just for raw feeding.....but do make a point of discussing the cons and need for balance with people who are into it. Theres pros and cons to everything. Sadly lots of people like to refuse to acknowledge the documented cons with this one....but what do I know,everyone knows vets are terrible at nutrition and apparently are in the pocket of the big pharma and hills etc :P
 
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CorvusCorax said:
Would I be banned from visiting a relative in hospital for eating sushi or steak tartare?
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Joking aside, if you were visiting an immuno-compromised patient you would be asked to adopt certain practices (shower before visiting, wear clean clothes with a disposable apron over, use hand gel before and after being on the ward, to avoid visiting if you were in any way unwell yourself).

I understand the value of PAT dogs but for some patients it is contracting an infection from an external source, rather than the illness they are being treated for, that kills them.
 
Aru said:
We don't barrier nurse just for raw feeding.....but do make a point of discussing the cons and need for balance with people who are into it. Theres pros and cons to everything. Sadly lots of people like to refuse to acknowledge the documented cons with this one....but what do I know,everyone knows vets are terrible at nutrition and apparently are in the pocket of the big pharma and hills etc :P
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if you don't give raw meat/bones do you just feed kibble alone? if you feed kibble/biscuit and then give raw bones you still then run some risk. Just not sure how you can feed a dog without it ever having raw bones/meat and therefore some risk. Interested to know what a vet would feed.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Would I be banned from visiting a relative in hospital for eating sushi or steak tartare?
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No, but your colon is lots longer than a dog’s!

Surely walking into a hospital ward having walked about half a mile to get to my mil’s ward is as bad a contamination threat as a raw fed dog? God knows what I’ve walked through!
 
My spaniel is on forthglade, eggs when the chickens oblige and shock horror the odd raw bone for when I want him to keep occupied. And the odd veggi chew thing, and semi moist liver flavoured training treats. I suspect he would do well on raw as he’s awful on any kibble I’ve tried but I have a shared kitchen and on days like today I’m just about to walk him now as only just got in- I don’t have time for faffing! He lives with 4 healthy adults including me and 2 mature dogs. I’m in daily contact with reptiles and poultry so I’m not too worried about the risk he poses and try to follow reasonable hygiene biosecurity.
 
I feed kibble and raw chicken necks for the teeth,usually once a week or so. She'll move onto drumsticks soon as shes started trying to gulp the necks down because she loves them so much.

I'm willing to take the small level of risk for the level of benifit my pup gets from eating and enjoying chicken. I just like people to make informed choices. Everything in life has cons as well as pros.... our practice policy is to encourage bones for dogs as they help massively for dental health...but common sense needs to be used with everything. Raw doesnt have enough positive studies backing it atm to officially recommend it to clients....theres to many well documented risks and cons for me to feel comfortable recommending it to everyone tbh.and my recommendations are ment to be based on scientific evidence not anecdotal. Its also a diet that does require dedication and a lot of research to balance appropriately unless you go for the commercial versions. Happy to encourage people if they want to follow it as long as they try and keep in balanced but medically there are a few warnings that go with it..Hopefully they will start doing some proper studies to highlight the benifits now that the diet has gotten serious commerical interest though. I think zwikipeak in new zealand is working on just that atm.
 
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thanks for the reply, Aru. My 9 week old GSD is on fully raw. I was inclined towards it but he made the decision. Kibble, forthglade and cooked chicken were the work of the devil. He was seriously happy to starve. Raw he would do 4 meals and day and preferably more. He is now on a commercial complete version for a month whilst I learn more.

Our vet to my surprise was not horrified but keen and supportive. He already had one client with a pack of dogs on raw. He mentioned bones and dental health. He did say that some of the other vets in the practice would not be supportive.

It is a lot more work that kibble but surely from a commercial POV it must be big business. Mine costs a considerable amount more than kibble would do but the pup looks great on it.
 
I doubt we’ll see any studies on raw anytime soon cos it doesn’t pay vets who push kibble of questionable quality in their surgeries. Only the big parent companies will pay for studies claiming their food is amazing for the dog. :rolleyes3:
 
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