Phasing out of fossil fuels and towing

[Mule]

Something occured to me recently. What will we do for towing when there is the switchover to electric cars. Are there affordable electric cars that can tow? Or will hybrids be more realistic? I have a 12 year old Outlander. I always buy older cars. I don't like buying newer ones on credit. As electric cars are newish they will cost a fortune.

I'm guessing the price of diesel will rocket soon enough too so will make older diesels unaffordable. Has anyone else thought about it? I'm wondering whether there will be an exemption for farmers like there is with ag diesel.

 

[The Bouncing Bog Trotter]

You have raised a very interesting point that I have been mulling over for a while. When we replace our car last time we wanted to look at hybrids but were not able to find anything that had the towing capacity that we needed. In fact most modern cars have a reduced towing capacity from their predecessors, eg Kia Sorrento/Mitsubishi Outlander.

Given the recent rule changes on red diesel v white diesel I can only see the situation getting worse. I certainly can't see any exemptions being issued to what is essential a minority sport.

 

[Zuzan]

I think Hydrogen power will eventually become the power used for towing and goods vehicles. agree about buying older cars and not having to take out essentially another mortgage to cover them.

@The Bouncing Bog Trotter what are the recent rule changes on Red diesel?

 

[Mule]

You have raised a very interesting point that I have been mulling over for a while. When we replace our car last time we wanted to look at hybrids but were not able to find anything that had the towing capacity that we needed. In fact most modern cars have a reduced towing capacity from their predecessors, eg Kia Sorrento/Mitsubishi Outlander.

Given the recent rule changes on red diesel v white diesel I can only see the situation getting worse. I certainly can't see any exemptions being issued to what is essential a minority sport.

Yep, it could be a bloody disaster. My only (very small hope) is that, although I'm not a farmer, I have a herd number and surely farmers will be exempt. I'm in Ireland btw so who knows if the exemptions will be the same in both countries. The farming lobby in Ireland is still strongish so I'm hoping there will be something.

 

[Mule]

I think Hydrogen power will eventually become the power used for towing and goods vehicles. agree about buying older cars and not having to take out essentially another mortgage to cover them.

@The Bouncing Bog Trotter what are the recent rule changes on Red diesel?

Must look up hydrogen power. At a guess it's something that will be some time away?

 

[Zuzan]

I thnk Hydrogen is already being used for heavy plant.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I share your anxieties OP.

Am currently in process of getting rid of my aged X-Trail, which is from the time when dinosaurs walked the earth and frankly wouldn't pull grannies knickers down right now......... and have just bought a little Vauxhall Corsa diesel purely as a run-around till I make "decisions" about the next 4X4.

Did think about an electric vehicle as a "run-around" but currently the prices are around the £14,000+ mark - simply because they're so new on the market - which isn't something I want to spend right now on a piddly little run-about vehicle which can't even tow.

Right now the second hand price of anything half-decent 4X4 which will tow is seriously stoopid.

Really worry about what we are all gonna do in say 10yrs time.

 

[FestiveG]

Re the rule changes on red diesel, will it be necessary to somehow "show" ones holding number to get red?

 

[crazyandme]

RE Hydrogen power/fuel cells, a lot of people seem to think that it will be the future with vehicles that need the extra power (ie HGVs etc). So I suspect that eventually when it has been normalised in that industry, it will spill over into the normal consumer market that requires the towing capability.
Not really my area though, I just pick up bits from coworkers and proof reading papers!

 

[MagicMelon]

Ive been discussing/arguing this with my partner in the last few months too! Hes sure we'll all be driving electric cars very soon, but Im saying that cant be so as none of them as far as Im aware have pulling power. I guess they'll develop them in due course? I personally dont fancy electric cars living in a rural area like I do! I also wondered how good they'd be in the snow, we all have 4x4's generally round here for the odd load of snow we get. If they lack towing power, surely they'll be pretty useless in the snow too...

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Electric vehicles should potentially have unlimited torque and better towing power-so my OH tells me. There are already electric utes in the US, they are just very spendy. He’s currently looking for his next company car and they should tow going on their stats but it seems no one has really road tested them yet.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Do people just like forget where the power comes from with electric vehicles? Or how the power grid can or cannot actually handle this? Practically in certain applications is a whole 'nother thing too.

I'm certainly not against electric cars, "greener" transportation, and whatnot but I don't think they're the bomb.com that some make them out to be.

I drove a hybrid for a few years and it was quite cheap to own, but I didn't own it into its "high mileage" years and I know the manufacturing process behind it certainly wasn't eco friendly.

Then there's the 52 year old hunk of metal in my garage. It's not fuel efficient (7.5L engines don't tend to be) its emissions are probably terrible, and it wreaks of unburnt hydrocarbons. However it's not got a lot of plastic to it and it's been on the planet for 52 years. Not just literally thrown away, it still exists.

So then I wonder how it all shakes out if I compare the true footprint of my 52 year old vs a new electric car (with power from a coal plant), it's manufacturing and all its plastics, batteries, and whatnot. Granted 52 years ago the manufacturing of this metal vehicle probably wasn't exactly "green" but I do wonder. However, old car has been polluting the streets since 1970, so probably loses automatically. Although, it wasn't driven for 52 years consistently and now only comes out in nice weather.

DHL/Deutsche Post now has electric vehicles for our mail delivery, and they work quite well for that. Sort of sound like a spaceship (not that I would know what a spaceship sounds like). They know their routes/they are the same routes and the vehicles range, so I think this works out quite well.

I'm certainly not writing off more electric cars on the roads, but there's a lot of thinking, time, and other stuff to take care of to make or happen in a good way.

As for towing vehicles, I don't know enough about electric cars to say they'd do the job or not.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

I’ve a got a new petrol car which I bought this year although I looked hard at electric cars but couldn’t afford one (used) with a large enough range and low enough mileage. A battery lease would have cost me £90 a month on top of the cost of the car. I’ve also got a 20yr old diesel lorry.

It’s unlikely I’ll be able to afford to replace lorry especially with any subsequent modern version. I’m just thinking we’ll all just have to adapt to a new future that might not be like it is today. With finite resources we’re all going to have to give up something. Even after the last fossil fuel driven cars are manufactured they’ll go on for 15-20 yrs. there will be new innovations and where needed I’m sure exemptions will be made. We will change and adapt like we always have.

I’m not going to worry about it I think it will be the least of our worries in the future. We’ll be grateful if we have a warm home and food on the table. Interesting times.

 

[Reacher]

RE Hydrogen power/fuel cells, a lot of people seem to think that it will be the future with vehicles that need the extra power (ie HGVs etc). So I suspect that eventually when it has been normalised in that industry, it will spill over into the normal consumer market that requires the towing capability.
Not really my area though, I just pick up bits from coworkers and proof reading papers!

That is interesting, i’ve wondered in general why electric cars are being developed yet hydrogen fuelled cars are barely mentioned

 

[LEC]

I don’t get it as there was a new diesel 4x4 out which had to be tested in closed conditions as the air it was taking in was dirtier than what it was putting back out so they couldn’t work out the results properly. I appreciate there is an over reliance on dwindling resources (oil) which is why this shift to electric is going on though.

 

[Quigleyandme]

The elephant in the room is that the exchequer receives a huge amount of revenue from fuel duty and I do wonder how it will plug the gaping hole in it’s balance sheet once the UK has gone electric/hydrogen.

 

[laura_nash]

Yep, it could be a bloody disaster. My only (very small hope) is that, although I'm not a farmer, I have a herd number and surely farmers will be exempt. I'm in Ireland btw so who knows if the exemptions will be the same in both countries. The farming lobby in Ireland is still strongish so I'm hoping there will be something.

Yes, I'm hoping this will be the case here. Having a herd / flock / equine premises no is enough for commercial vehicle tax for farming purposes - in Mayo anyway (I believe it varies). Plus horses are still considered agriculture here. So fingers crossed there will be something for all the small farmers that will apply across, especially for those with a few cows or sheep.

Doesn't help in the UK though.

ETA Regarding some kind of exemption for farmers, all the small farmers around here (including us) have little diesel tractors that are practically part of the family. Ours has been on this property for 50+ years. If diesel becomes unavailable for these, or way too expensive, there would be serious anger. Quite a lot of the semi retired farmers use them as their main vehicle (given the cost of tax and insurance vs pensions this isn't too surprising) so cut that off they won't be able to do their food shop.

 

[Orangehorse]

JCB already produces electric vehicles for construction, the production ones are small at the moment - very good for enclosed spaces such as tunnels underground. Working on larger models, in fact I think there might be some be trialled at the moment. In other words - electric is new at the moment and there will be more and more models.

After all, there are plenty of caravan owners out there who want cards to tow with.

 

[Spottyappy]

It’s not just the towing, but the infrastructure is not there for long journeys, either. When you have radio/heater/demister etc on, most EV do not go many miles without needing a recharge.
we had a hybrid Peugeot for a while, and then the batteries stopped holding the charge. It was too expensive to change them, so we sold it. Apparently the components in EV batteries are not, yet, able to be recycled either I believe.

 

[phizz4]

In my opinion hydrogen is the future, electric is just a stop gap. The issue with Hydrogen engines at the moment isn't the technology, Toyota have got it pretty well sorted, its the lack of re-fueling infrastructure- there just aren't the places where you can fill up with Hydrogen because the investment hasn't been made. A friend who works for JLR supports the finding that diesel cars to day are cleaner than either petrol engines and, in some parts of the world (Delhi, Beijing) produce cleaner air coming out of the exhaust than is going into the engine in the first place.
HGVs are never going to be electric powered, the battery would take up all of the payload, so, as stated, at some point cars will catch up with the technology. If the government pulled their finger out and had a real, workable, strategy that has been thought through we would be building the hydrogen infrastructure necessary now, and investing for the future. I didn't think that Boris could organise a P... U. in a Brewery but I have now been proved wrong!

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

In the US the Ford rangers are available in electric..I ll have to have one of them. But fossil fuels will be available for years yet….today I found out that high fuel prices are not being helped by reduced numbers worldwide of refineries..so even if we increased barrel production we haven’t refinery capacity ?

 

[Orangehorse]

Doesn't hydrogen need electricity to make?

I read an article today from the USA, where he tried an electric car and kept it going all day in freezing temperatures to see how long it lasted - re all the cars stuck in the snow in the USA recently.
He followed the advice about not keeping the heating full blast, but to keep the steering wheel and seats heated, started out with 87% charge, took it for a short drive around then back to his drive and kept it ticking over for 12 hours and took a note of the charge left available at various points. The charge lasted pretty well, even after 12 hours he would have had enough to carry on driving somewhere.

 

[crazyandme]

It’s not just the towing, but the infrastructure is not there for long journeys, either. When you have radio/heater/demister etc on, most EV do not go many miles without needing a recharge.
we had a hybrid Peugeot for a while, and then the batteries stopped holding the charge. It was too expensive to change them, so we sold it. Apparently the components in EV batteries are not, yet, able to be recycled either I believe.

There are some start ups looking at recycling lithium batteries. Most definitely not all materials involved, and it isn't 100% efficient yet as it is still a very new (relatively speaking!) field. One of my colleagues is looking in more depth at how to recycle these materials, and improving the material in it's "second life" as a battery

 

[Cloball]

Electric vehicles are as far as I'm aware perfectly capable of towing but it would dramatically effect the range which is less than ideal particularly with lives stock. I'm not sure of the exact reason but the legalities in the UK mean electric vehicles are allowed to tow or 'rated' for towing.

 

[DirectorFury]

Older diesels can run on veg oil pretty happily, you just need to add a fuel heater and/or cut it 60/40 with diesel in the winter months to stop it being too thick when you try to start the car. And also change fuel filters regularly etc. This will always be an option if diesel goes up even more . We run ours on a mixture of veg oil and diesel when Bookers have offers on oil as you can get it for ~70p a litre.

Electric vehicles should potentially have unlimited torque and better towing power-so my OH tells me. There are already electric utes in the US, they are just very spendy. He’s currently looking for his next company car and they should tow going on their stats but it seems no one has really road tested them yet.

I know a handful in California with the new Rivians and the initial reviews are good, except for when it’s cold (below freezing). A few people have come a cropper when taking them up into the Sierras as the computer can’t accurately estimate the range and the range just plummets.
One guy uses his to tow his Mx5 track car (total combined weight of car and trailer is under 2 ton) and he gets about 120 miles out of a full charge rather than the 350 miles when not towing. You could probably get away with one in the UK provided you’re only taking one smallish horse and only staying local - I couldn’t/wouldn’t expect a horse to stand on a trailer for 3-4 hours while an electric car charged so unless show grounds start providing charging points they’re not a realistic choice for most of the UK.

 

[Fred66]

You have raised a very interesting point that I have been mulling over for a while. When we replace our car last time we wanted to look at hybrids but were not able to find anything that had the towing capacity that we needed. In fact most modern cars have a reduced towing capacity from their predecessors, eg Kia Sorrento/Mitsubishi Outlander.

Given the recent rule changes on red diesel v white diesel I can only see the situation getting worse. I certainly can't see any exemptions being issued to what is essential a minority sport.

On animal welfare grounds they might need to give exemptions otherwise how would you transport to vet ?

However it might be that other than towing or vehicle maintenance (MOT / service / repairs etc) it might be banned from road

Potentially makes a lorry more attractive than trailer!

 

[Parrotperson]

I wouldn’t be worrying. Huge advances are made everyday in this field.

expect to see perfectly viable electric and hydrogen tow cars in the next five years. And remember you don’t have to give up your tow cars and change until you want to buy a brand new car.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I know a handful in California with the new Rivians and the initial reviews are good, except for when it’s cold (below freezing). A few people have come a cropper when taking them up into the Sierras as the computer can’t accurately estimate the range and the range just plummets.
One guy uses his to tow his Mx5 track car (total combined weight of car and trailer is under 2 ton) and he gets about 120 miles out of a full charge rather than the 350 miles when not towing. You could probably get away with one in the UK provided you’re only taking one smallish horse and only staying local - I couldn’t/wouldn’t expect a horse to stand on a trailer for 3-4 hours while an electric car charged so unless show grounds start providing charging points they’re not a realistic choice for most of the UK.

which is kind of what I would do.

Honestly, travelling horses to competitions will become the preserve of the extremely wealthy and a thing of the past to most average equestrians in less than 20ys-given the state of the planet, thats probably how it should be, there are bigger priorities.

 

[Mule]

Older diesels can run on veg oil pretty happily, you just need to add a fuel heater and/or cut it 60/40 with diesel in the winter months to stop it being too thick when you try to start the car. And also change fuel filters regularly etc. This will always be an option if diesel goes up even more . We run ours on a mixture of veg oil and diesel when Bookers have offers on oil as you can get it for ~70p a litre.



I know a handful in California with the new Rivians and the initial reviews are good, except for when it’s cold (below freezing). A few people have come a cropper when taking them up into the Sierras as the computer can’t accurately estimate the range and the range just plummets.
One guy uses his to tow his Mx5 track car (total combined weight of car and trailer is under 2 ton) and he gets about 120 miles out of a full charge rather than the 350 miles when not towing. You could probably get away with one in the UK provided you’re only taking one smallish horse and only staying local - I couldn’t/wouldn’t expect a horse to stand on a trailer for 3-4 hours while an electric car charged so unless show grounds start providing charging points they’re not a realistic choice for most of the UK.

Ooh good to know about the veg oil. I see this in my future.

 

[Darbs]

In the future electric vehicles will tow much, much better than diesel engines. Diesel trains don't drive the wheels from the locomotive engine, they drive a generator that drives electric motors at the wheels.

Electric motors are far better in every way than combustion engines, more torque, smoother to control, far fewer moving parts. no gearbox, massive service intervals etc etc. Battery technolgy is advancing rapidy and forecourt fuel will be around for decades yet (oil is not running out any time soon) as existing cars are gradually phased out over the next 30 years, even longer for heavy good vehicles. There is a far bigger challenge for electric heavy goods vehicles as they need huge batteries at the moment, and can't even get close to the current range of HGV diesel engines.

We are still very early days with electric vehicle technology, the early combustion engines could produce about 30 horse power from a 3 litre engine, now we can get over 1700hp from a 2 litre engine!