Phenylbutazone (Bute) getting into the human food chain

[Judgemental]

The latest scandal involving horse meat finding it's way, on an undisclosed basis into the food chain and the use of Phenylbutazone (Bute), provides a useful argument concerning the knackering of horses and that they should be sent exclusively to the hunt kennels.

Thus the hunts are providing an essential service for the safe disposal of horse meat.

Is this latest problem a result of the Hunting Act 2004 and the limitations placed upon hunts in their uptake or ability to take all the horses they are offered?

Or are there other reasons bearing in mind the requirements of all horse passports to record the use of Bute.

Even a small dose of Bute, particularly on small children could have a degenerative effect from a burger!

 

[EAST KENT]

I was told there is only one hunt kennel in the south east now feeding fallen stock,thank God I still have that facility for my old horses.But ,apart from losing the goodwill of farmers by not offering this service,do they not consider how much better their hounds do on raw meat?

 

[combat_claire]

It all stems back to the regulations brought in in the wake of BSE crisis. Many packs decided the costs of upgrading slaughter house facilities was not viable.

We have retained a flesh round with both the foxhounds and the minkhounds. Though it is subsidised by the pack as a goodwill gesture to farmers.

 

[Countryman]

I'm not sure what the Hunting Act has to do with a reduction in the flesh round?

We still collect Fallen Stock and feed it to the hounds, as do several other neighbouring packs. It's sad to hear in some places this practice is rare.

 

[Alec Swan]

J_M, I'm really sorry old bean, but that's hypothesised rowlocks.

Bute, as dispensed to humans was an entirely satisfactory anti-inflammatory drug. Amongst an infinitesimally small percentage of the recipients, there was a small, but perceived risk of the suppression of white blood cells, and a form of anaemia which I can't spell.

Once the drug has been ingested to the patient, in this case the horse, then it passes through the system. In the highly unlikely event that the animal which has had Bute administered, manages to retain the residue within its system, then it becomes unfit for human consumption. Really?

When we consider that ALL the poultry which we eat is fed, FROM BIRTH a daily diet of antibiotics, is it any wonder that we are building a resistance to ABs? The risk to us of Bute, is nothing compared with the power that it gives those who would claim it to be a danger to mankind, from a secondary ingestion.

The excuse that Bute was, or could be of a secondary risk to humans, following on from the ingestion by the principle to whom it was administered, would make me wonder whether it was a convenient drug, from the point of view of argument, to prevent horses from being permitted to enter the human food chain.

Complete and utter nonsense. It's all politics, it's rubbish, and it is still a simple and useful tool for those who would declare that we're all doomed!!

Alec.

 

[JenHunt]

Imo, this whole issue just lends weight to the argument that we should all just be buying locally sourced food and cooking it ourselves from scratch, not buying ready made poop.

In saying this I'm doing myself out of a job as I work for a manufacturer of food flavourings. But then we'd all be doing British farming a favour, and I suspect farming employs more people in this country than the flavour industry...

 

[Judgemental]

J_M, I'm really sorry old bean, but that's hypothesised rowlocks.

Bute, as dispensed to humans was an entirely satisfactory anti-inflammatory drug. Amongst an infinitesimally small percentage of the recipients, there was a small, but perceived risk of the suppression of white blood cells, and a form of anaemia which I can't spell.

Once the drug has been ingested to the patient, in this case the horse, then it passes through the system. In the highly unlikely event that the animal which has had Bute administered, manages to retain the residue within its system, then it becomes unfit for human consumption. Really?

When we consider that ALL the poultry which we eat is fed, FROM BIRTH a daily diet of antibiotics, is it any wonder that we are building a resistance to ABs? The risk to us of Bute, is nothing compared with the power that it gives those who would claim it to be a danger to mankind, from a secondary ingestion.

The excuse that Bute was, or could be of a secondary risk to humans, following on from the ingestion by the principle to whom it was administered, would make me wonder whether it was a convenient drug, from the point of view of argument, to prevent horses from being permitted to enter the human food chain.

Complete and utter nonsense. It's all politics, it's rubbish, and it is still a simple and useful tool for those who would declare that we're all doomed!! Alec.

Alec I am not going to let you get away with any of that post for the simple reason Bute is a very strong 'Horse Paracetamol'.

If a horse is on Bute it is likely to be on Bute for a very long time towards the end of it's useful life.

Although I have known some youngsters (not mine) on Bute for various reasons.

The build up in the horse is unacceptable for ingestion by humans, especially children when one considers burgers and a well known major supermarket was using it in their low value burgers.

It's not politics.

Bute is highly dangerous to humans!

Sometimes I feel your comments are designed to stimulate discussion, well you have achieved that.

Alec.[/QUOTE]

 

[combat_claire]

Bute is highly dangerous to humans!

Our former Master finished the Scotland to London March prior to the 1997 rally on crutches and dosed up on bute. It doesn't seem to have caused him any lasting damage.....

 

[Judgemental]

Our former Master finished the Scotland to London March prior to the 1997 rally on crutches and dosed up on bute. It doesn't seem to have caused him any lasting damage.....

I am aware that there is consumption by humans with capacity and in very small quantities but would you allow a child anywhere near Bute?

 

[KautoStar1]

I'd be more worried about all the antibiotics & hormones they pump into battery chickens & the pesticides they spray on crops & fruit on a daily basis than a bit of bute that might have got into the food chain.

 

[combat_claire]

I am aware that there is consumption by humans with capacity and in very small quantities but would you allow a child anywhere near Bute?

Nope, but then I wouldn't let a child anywhere near an economy burger or processed rubbish either...

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

The build up in the horse is unacceptable for ingestion by humans, especially children when one considers burgers and a well known major supermarket was using it in their low value burgers.

Can you supply an unbiased report to support your claim?

It's not politics.

Correction. It is politics.

Bute is highly dangerous to humans!

Again, a correction. There is or may be a perceived risk. That doesn't make it highly dangerous.

Sometimes I feel your comments are designed to stimulate discussion, well you have achieved that.

On occasions, you could be right, but not this time. My only interest is that we, as a society, stand against the constant barrage of nonsense that we have delivered to us. We have a Plain English Society, and now we need a Common Sense Society. I'm entirely serious.

Alec.

[/QUOTE]

Alec.

 

[Addicted to Hunting]

Bute, is also extremely bad for Dogs, so the fact that some horses will of had it, who are then fed to hounds as meat, would help prove the point that it isn't as bad, when it is taken as a secondary substance so to speak, IMO. If that makes sense

 

[Judgemental]

Interesting from the number of comments made by members of the general public that they do not know what Bute is and that is adminisitered via a horse's feed.

Many think it's a needle job.

Nor do they know what the purpose of Bute is for in a horse.

I seem to recollect there was a campaign to ban Bute a few years ago, or is that a figment of my mind?

 

[lauraandjack]

Bute, at the correct dose, is NOT highly dangerous to dogs. Bute tablets are still fully licensed, and available for the treatment of our canine chums. However, it has fallen out of popularity due to the availability of better anti inflammatories with more flexible dosing options.

Phenylbutazone has been known to cause idiosyncratic blood disorders (aplastic anaemia) IN A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

Yes, the bute in the food chain thing is pretty disturbing. But probably there really is very little risk to anyone who's eaten a few economy burgers in their lifetime. What is shows is how unfit for purpose the horse passport legislation is.

Far more worrying is the complete lack of traceability in our food. How long have they been doing this? What the hell else have they been putting in?

British farmers have to jump through Lord knows how many hoops with passports, medication records, ear tags etc etc and now they are rewarded with this scandal. The rules here clearly do not apply abroad! I hope the general public has noted that none of this meat is of British origin!

 

[Alec Swan]

So let me get this straight;

Bute was administered to humans, but because there were perceived and occasional risks, it was discontinued. Right?

Bute is now considered a suitable anti-if for horses. Right?

Once an animal, often in excess of half a ton (and that's an important point), has ingested the administered drugs, and after months, or years, they are STILL considered to be a risk? Really? Why?

The wormers that we have for our livestock ALL have a meat or a milk withdrawal date. Bute was previously administered for humans, and no one died as a result, as far as I'm aware, so how come we have an instant lifetime ban on any meat entering the human food chain, which has previously been given Bute?

If someone can answer the above questions, or explain the anomalies to me, I will leave a happy man. As it is, I consider it to be a load of old rowlocks, and the "Bute Question", has been raised by those who lack reason and result, and as lame as their argument is, they have an issue with those who eat horse meat.

Alec.

 

[KautoStar1]

I'm not really surprised the general public don't know what Bute is ? Why should they if it is mainly used in animal healthcare. Same way as most of us don't know about the drugs & their uses in human medicine.
The big issue is tracability, or lack of it in this case. I work for a paper company & we have full tracability on our products & have to produce that info to various official bodies including as part of the specs we agree with the retailers & its mind blowing how complicated it is & just for bog roll. How food production gets away with being so slack god only knows. But the retailers must take their share of the blame - they have been squeezing the pips out of british manufacturing for too long & something like this was bound to happen.

 

[Judgemental]

Clearly the issue of slaughtering horses has become a major issue and will effect the beef industry. The consumer will quite reasonably think twice about Ready Meals etc.

Although it will help the bona fide butchers, whether family or part of a large retail chain, in store.

Personally, I lay the blame squarely at the door of Tony Blair and the 2004 Hunting Act, which changed the chain of demand for horses when they are knackered.

Similarly the fact that too many people are prepared to send their old hunter and pet ponies to the slaughter houses, for a few pounds, when they would be making a far more meaningful contribution sending their horses/ponies to the hunt kennels. For example the knacker man and or huntsman is entitled to the skin money.

Ours are dispatched on our premises and winched up into the hunt flesh wagon, then fed to the hounds.

Anybody who owns a horse or pony should be prepared to stand by and watch the process, it's their animal and they have a responsibility to see it is properly dealt with.

I was appalled to see the report in the Daily Mail today, which includes a picture of a Welsh Pony being shot with a rifle at Potters of Taunton.

Only a properly prescribed Humane Killer should be used.

This whole subject is an unmitigated scandal and wholly unacceptable.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ug-probe-shows-brutal-seconds-ponys-life.html

 

[combat_claire]

Personally, I lay the blame squarely at the door of Tony Blair and the 2004 Hunting Act, which changed the chain of demand for horses when they are knackered.

Similarly the fact that too many people are prepared to send their old hunter and pet ponies to the slaughter houses, for a few pounds, when they would be making a far more meaningful contribution sending their horses/ponies to the hunt kennels. For example the knacker man and or huntsman is entitled to the skin money.

Ours are dispatched on our premises and winched up into the hunt flesh wagon, then fed to the hounds.

Anybody who owns a horse or pony should be prepared to stand by and watch the process, it's their animal and they have a responsibility to see it is properly dealt with.

Totally agree with this. I would just add that the loss of fallen stock services pre-dated Bliar and began post-BSE when new slaughterhouse regulations were brought in. I did my dissertation on this topic so can be a bit of a bore on the topic:

http://www.freewebs.com/fallenstockresearch/kennels-changes.html

Also thanks to the added costs to renderers the skin money accruing to hunt staff is so negligible as to be barely worth their while in salting up the skins. Apparently the money in providing rocking horse tails is more satisfactory!

I find that hunting people are more able to make a difficult decision and call the kennels to have an old friend put down than the happy hackers who try and put the decision off.

 

[Luci07]

Actually I was more concerned that if bute was entering the food chain, that is overwhelming evidence that passporting our horses is not working. So our passports are not legal documents showing ownership, they don't stop horses illegally entering the food chain..it shows breeding on some and microchip details but not a lot more!

 

[Judgemental]

This whole saga is hopefully causing horse owners, to focus on the proper way they should deal with a horse or pony that has to be dispatched.

The idea of calling upon a so called professional knacker man, to rock up at one's yard, bundle the beast into a lorry and trailer and then it goes to the abbatoir miles away, herded with other horses and then shot is wholly unacceptable.

Any horse or pony that has been broken in, ridden handled inevitably becomes sensitive to their owners/riders/environment. I am not talking about feral ponies running on the moors or in The National Parks.

All eventualities should be carried out in a quiet place at one's yard, premises or farm, whilst a little grooming engages the animal and if a blindfold can be used so much the better, because the horse will not be familair with the knacker man/kennel man or hunts man or women from the kennels.

The flesh wagon should be out of sight and only brought round to the carcass after dispatch because all flesh wagons no matter how well washed out, always smell off blood. That way there is no distress to the horse/pony. Furthermore the practice of cutting the animal's throat once in the wagon and leaving a spillage of blood up the road is also unacceptable.

 

[Alec Swan]

J_M,

whilst your last post was at a tangent to your opening post, it was none the less, entirely correct. Most knackermen, purely for convenience, want the horse stood virtually at the tailgate of their collection vehicle. It most certainly isn't how I'd do it, or have it done.

Alec.

 

[Judgemental]

J_M,

whilst your last post was at a tangent to your opening post, it was none the less, entirely correct. Most knackermen, purely for convenience, want the horse stood virtually at the tailgate of their collection vehicle. It most certainly isn't how I'd do it, or have it done.

Alec.

Alec I feel that if you and I were Joint Masters of a pack of hounds, it would be the ultimate hunting utopia.

 

[JanetGeorge]

The wormers that we have for our livestock ALL have a meat or a milk withdrawal date. Bute was previously administered for humans, and no one died as a result, as far as I'm aware, so how come we have an instant lifetime ban on any meat entering the human food chain, which has previously been given Bute?

If someone can answer the above questions, or explain the anomalies to me, I will leave a happy man. As it is, I consider it to be a load of old rowlocks, and the "Bute Question", has been raised by those who lack reason and result, and as lame as their argument is, they have an issue with those who eat horse meat.

Alec.

It's all about MRLs (minimum residue levels). Different countries have different requirements for the withdrawal of different medications in animals intended for the home market - or those intended for the export market.

For example, Russia is a bit tetchy about Tetracycline - the USA is not. So pigs slaughtered for the home market may not be treated with tetracycline in 0-4 days before slaughter. Pigs going to the Russian market mustn't have Tetracycline for at least 14 days prior to slaughter.

All medications routinely administered to livestock have detailed MRLs - and testing methods to determine them. As I understand it, bute in horses is either a bit more complex - or more difficult - or more expensive to test and because the NEED is less, there isn't an approved MRL - therefore ANY 'bute is not allowed.

Wormers are used routinely on millions of animals destined for the human food chain - so the withdrawal periods have been worked out to ensure that the MRL will be satisfactory XX number of days after administering a wormer. If the work hasn't been done to determine just how long it takes for a drug to completely clear the system - and if that drug is considered toxic to humans - that drug cannot be used on animals that might be eaten.

You'd have to eat hundreds of burgers made from horsemeat from a horse treated with bute before you stood a chance of the known 'side effects' of bute to occur. But it's a bit like the woman who died from drinking VAST quantities of Coca Cola - some people MIGHT eat 20 burgers a day every day!

 

[Hunters]

Does anyone know if any other drugs given to horses have been tested?

 

[Judgemental]

Re report from Daily Mail. I was appalled to see the report in the Daily Mail today, which includes a picture of a Welsh Pony being shot with a rifle.

Only a properly prescribed Humane Killer should be used.

This whole subject is an unmitigated scandal and wholly unacceptable.

I still cannot understand why anybody with an modicombe of common sense would use a rife in an abbotoir

The risk of a beast jerking it's head and the muzzle of the gun sliding off the point of impact, with a stray rifle bullet ricocheting off concrete walls, steel beams or penetrating galvanised cladding, is beyond comprehension.

 

[Alec Swan]

I've been in touch with the FSA, specifically the fraud division, and pressed them on the matter of Phenylbutazone, and it's withdrawal period for meat. The first response was, "Well, it's my understanding....". I replied by asking how I could offer that up as a defence in a Court of Law, and then by being a bit of a nuisance, I received the quote below.

It would seem that once administered, Bute would preclude any horse from EVER entering the human food chain, but for one small niggling doubt. You will see that I've highlighted the part where it says that the horse is not INTENDED for human consumption.

Whilst it may not be my INTENTION, would that be a loop hole for animals so treated to be sent for human consumption? It seems to me that Part 2 of Section IX, means nothing.

"Mr Swan

I've cut and pasted the relevant instruction to inspecting vets, which directly references the tables to EU Reg 37/2010 that set out permissible withdrawal periods for prescribed veterinary medicines:

'Phenylbutazone is not listed in either Table 1 or Table 2 of Regulation (EU) 37/2010.

Veterinary Medicines Directorate has authorised the use of products containing phenylbutazone as an active ingredient, but the use is restricted to non-food horses only. Horses which have been treated with phenylbutazone must not enter the food chain and their passports must be signed by the owner or PVS at Part II of Section IX to indicate that the animal is not intended for human consumption'."


Alec.

 

[Judgemental]

I suppose there is every possiblity that horse meat contaminated with Bute has entered the dog food chain.

 

[Judgemental]

Clearly the closure of Turners/Red Lion abattoir underscrores the malpractices that have been endemic in the disposal of equines.

There is only one proper place for all horses and ponies to ultimately go and that is the hunt kennels.

Humane, no risk to public health and of comfort to the owner as to the known final 'resting place' for one's horses.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/red-lion-abattoir-closes-due-to-risk-to-public-health/

 

[Alec Swan]

The problem J_M is that because of half baked EU regs, to which neither reason or thought have been applied, Kennels are no longer permitted to bury the unused waste. The incineration costs are horrendous, which is why most now rely upon bulk dry feed for hounds.

One interesting point, is it Morrisons? anyway, someone has found traces of Bute in corned beef!! If it come from Argentina, which I suspect that it does, it's highly unlikely that that lot administer pain killers to cattle! They do have a horse or two out there though.

Alec.