Phew! Mares in foal despite numpty vet!

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htobago

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I mentioned in another thread on here that I was worried about about a mare for whom we had sent chilled Tobago-semen a few weeks ago. The vet told my YO/stud manager that he had received the semen before 9am, as promised, but had put it in the fridge and was planning to inseminate late that evening!
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YO was very concerned - as she pointed out "The best place for semen is in the mare, not sitting in a bloody fridge for another 12 hours!!!"
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So I've been fretting and biting my nails for weeks, especially as the two mare handled by this vet are among Tobago's very best mares this year - both well-known big show winners.

Anyway - panic over. Both mares have been scanned in foal! No thanks to numpty vet!

Or am I being unreasonable? It seemed like a remarkably stupid thing to do, but perhaps I'm being unfair? The mares are in foal (one of them even twinned - pinched out successfully and she's still in foal, thank goodness) - so maybe it was OK to park the semen in a fridge for 12 hours?
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Would any of you do this?
 
I had something similar, a mare went into my ponio and was covered and she was scanned NIF but the vet said it was the worse uterus he'd ever seen, and couldn't be 100% but was 95% she wasn't infoal, and the owner decided she must be infoal, the vet was useless and went to pick her up and when she got there she was told they felt she was coming back into season but she said no no she'll be infoal the vet just couldn't see the pregnancy because of he bad uterus....anyone she rang me the next day screaming her head off saying that the mare was in season and the people at that place where my stallion was were useless because they should have known she was in season (she was told because they told me and I told her before she went that they felt she was just coming in, as well as them telling her while she was there) anyway I agreed to send chilled out next time but she needed to let me know as soon as she came into season (as they were going to wait for the next season - WHY??!) and then I would be expecting their call at anytime, well I got a call for the chilled off my ponio on a Tues for Wed out of the blue no pre warning and the collection centre near him couldn't do it that day because they had left for a big show and wouldn't be back to weds, so I offered them semen off my most expensive stallion (at no extra cost and i'd pay for the collection they'd just pay for the transport), surprisingly (not) they accepted, we traveled him 2 hours to twemlows and got it sent out and they recieved it before 9am on Wednesday, she rang me on Saturday to say they didn't put it in the mare until FRIDAY!!
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She kept it under freezer blocks in her kitchen until the vet said she was ready and put it in Friday evening and she ovulated by Saturday and then they have the cheek to moan that they didn't get a pregnancy and blamed the semen quality!!
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Needless to say I never dealt with them again.... they weren't good for my sanity!!!
 
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These stories just confirm my belief that this kind of thing should be left entirely in the hands of people who know what they are doing....

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OMG!!! Its practically the equivalent of a yoghurt pot and turkey baster!!!

My, maybe I should have used AI, had it shipped and stuck it in the fridge and done it myself!!! NOT!

Aren't horses such fun? You have to admit, at least these nutter owners and oddbal vets are good entertainment value... after the fact though, possibly not during!
 
Golly Horsegroupie they sound like the breeders from hell! What on earth did they expect, leaving the stuff lying around for 2 days?!!!

Actually that's an interesting question - does anyone (AndyPandy?) know exactly how long chilled semen does last (outside a mare, that is)? And how long does it last inside the mare, after insemination? We had one mare that didn't ovulate for days after insemination, and the vets didn't think there was any chance she'd be in foal, but she was, so maybe they underestimated how long the semen could last?

I'm lucky that at least they can collect off my stally at home, so we don't have to keep rushing him to collection centres. Actually that would simply not have been possible with the number of mares - he'd have been back and forth every day. How do you manage? It must be a nightmare! Or do you do most of your covering in hand?

I have to say, in fairness, that the vast majority of the vets my boy's stud manager has dealt with have been super - very efficient and professional and helpful. Unfortunately one tends to remember the one or two numpty ones more vividly!
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I went to Holden Fold stud to look at their facilities for having semen frozen and they had some that had been chilled in their fridge that had good motility that was 18 days old. I think it depends on the stallion. but it's certainly not advisable to do that lol! I think Brian was just keeping it to see how long it did last.
 
Putting chilled semen in the fridge is quite common and I have done it a number of times if it has turned up in the morning and I would rather wait till either the evening or following morning to inseminate due to follicle changes.
I've never had a problem and this year have had 2 mares confirmed in foal that semen arrived on Friday, mare not quite ready so have popped in fridge and used following day.
 
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BTW congratulatins HT!!!
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How many have been confirmed in foal to him now?

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Thanks Navalgem!

I'm not quite sure about the numbers - must check my spreadsheet when I get home! I think it's about 19 or 20.

He had over 25 booked, but some had to postpone their breedings till next year, cos of various probs such as late foaling, complications with foaling, injuries, owners' illness, etc.

One mare has now reabsorbed - but they are trying again, as she took with the first straw (they were using frozen semen) so they still have two more straws.
 
I still think the one I dealt with was a numpty, even if yours wasn't (lol) because they kept it under freezer blocks in the kitchen for 60 hours and it had been in transit for 17 hours and it was taken off the stallion another 4 hours prior to shipment, thats (hang on i'm doing the maths!!) 81 hours!! Really they should have either requested it later or ovuplanted the mare! Don't get me wrong i'm not saying semen can't last that long chilled but it is far less likely to work after being chilled for (hang on doing the maths again!!) 3 days and 21 hours!! When it was chilled for overnight and putting straight in the mare (we didn;t have APs secret recipe for it
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Horsegroupie yours still sound like complete numpties to me too! Even if chilled semen can last quite a long time, what they did was surely taking unnesessary risks.

I'm sure AndyPandy must have some research data on this for us! Where are you AP?
 
No the mare wasn't infoal and didn't they barate me for it............. I wouldn't have been so bad but they insisted that the semen had to be there on Wednesday or they were going to miss the ovulation
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I know, and there was no point in trying to explain it to them, because her vet was the beez knees and had got a pregancy in this mare before!
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Good job we kept some of it back at Twemlows and Tulis said it was still good on Thursday (which is the day after it should have been in the mare!) but unfortunately he threw it out on Thursday because the mare should have been inseminated on Wednesday, we didn't know they were keeping it til Friday night to inseminate
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Just as a follow up to this (sorry, I missed the thread when it first appeared
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)...

If, when semen arrives, the mare is further away from ovulating than you first thought - it is probably best to keep it in the fridge, rather than put it into the mare.

Once sperm cells are ejaculated they are "activated" by proteins and other chemicals in the semen. This activation makes them able to fertilise the egg, but the method by which they are activated involves them becoming more fragile. Storing them chilled slows this process down, but the process of chilling them also makes them (in general) less able to survive for extended periods inside the uterus and oviduct, once they are inseminated.

A recent study (Nunes et al., 2007) has shown that, in sperm cells stored at 2-5 degrees C for 48 hours, it is only in the last 2-4 hours that sperm cells become damaged to the point where pregnancy rates are significantly reduced.

Inseminating chilled semen into a mare more than 24 hours before ovulation reduces pregnancy rates, so the closer to ovulation you inseminate, the better, as long as the semen has been stored for 42 hours or less at 2-5 degrees C. The vet probably did the right thing in this case. However, obviously keeping semen chilled for more than 42 hours before inseminating is foolish in most cases.
 
Thanks AndyPandy! I knew you would have the facts and figures.

Not such a numpty vet then! As I said, I wasn't sure if I was being unfair to him - and now it seems I was unfair after all. I shall be a bit less quick to criticize in future!
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Another vet inseminated a mare waaay too early, and she didn't ovluate for something like 3 or 4 days after insemination. Again, we were very lucky and she was in foal, but the owner was beside herself with anxiety, thinking there was no chance the mare would be in foal.

Mind you - I'm not really criticizing this vet either, cos this mare had led us a merry dance with seasons that lasted about 5 minutes - the first time, we rushed the semen to her and she'd gone off by the time it arrived. So I'm not surprised he panicked a bit and inseminated too early the second time.

Where he did perhaps go wrong, I think, was in chucking the semen away the first time - even if she had just ovulated, I was told by another vet that they should have inseminated anyway, as there was still a chance she could have got in foal. This other vet said "It still would have been better to put the semen in the mare than down the sink"!

What do you think AndyPandy?
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I'm reluctant to indulge in too much vet-bashing - it's not an easy task, getting mares in foal, and I'm really not qualified to be so critical!
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It was certainly worth mentioning... so don't worry too much
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Like I said, sometimes it's the right thing to do, sometimes it's not. I don't have all the facts about this particular case, so I'm not totally certain if that was the right thing to do here or not, but the mares are in foal, so I guess it's OK.

Insemination within 12 hours of ovulation is OK, but insemination after ovulation (especially more than 12 hours after) leads to lower pregnancy rates, and higher rates of early embryonic loss. So yes, it would probably have been better to inseminate... some chance of a pregnancy is better than no chance.

I think people should be critical of their vets - so please continue htobago! Far too many people decide that their vets are repro gurus, and end up assuming the vet is always right, even though what they say is often total tripe!
 
Thanks AP!
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It would have been within 12 hours, for sure, so it sounds as though it would have made more sense to inseminate than to chuck the semen away - especially as the owner, who was worried about her mare's somewhat erratic and brief seasons, had driven over to collect the semen herself rather than wait for the overnight post!

I will certainly continue to ask questions about such decisions, because I am trying to learn, but I just think maybe I should be a bit less quick to criticize and call vets numpties when I don't really know enough!
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I'm so relieved that these mares are all in foal - it's really a bit churlish of me to whinge and complain, especially when so many breeders have had such a rotten year with mares not getting in foal.
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