Philippe Karl

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L.G.S.

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I have read his book twisted truths of modern dressage, watched his dvds as well as practiced methods on my own horses (medium to PSG working GP), clients young horses and my 30+ clients and horses.

At first I thought it looked odd and never thought it would work but it has made differences beyond anything I thought possible. Top dressage horses, behavioural problems, horses with bad conformation etc turned into relaxed light and happy horses. Even the most lazy, stuborn horses! My scores have gone from mid 60's to 74% in the last test (on average horses with average movement too)!!!

What are other peoples opinions on him and his methods. I am aware people either love him or hate him.
 
I found his book incomprehensible. In my opinion it was a conceptual muddle, jumping from fairly ranty and vague criticisms of others to unhelpful, generalised advice.

To be fair I have never seen his DVDs. He is based relatively close to me, but his system of accepting people to watch him train seemed insanely restrictive when I last looked at the details, so popping by to watch him live seems out of the question.

I've also read Baucher and not been very impressed with his ability to communicate training techniques - but by all accounts neither were his horses! ;)
 
Am interested to hear peoples thoughts on the dvd as thinking of getting them. Do they start right at the start/basics?
 
Yes they do. The classical dressage series 1-4 go through every movement from introducing the horse to lunging and inhand flexions to flying changes, piaffe, spanish walk and passage.

The classical versus classique dvd is really good to watch too. It compares the teaching of Philippe to Christoph Hess (head of the training department of the German National Equestrian Training Federation). A debate using a chosen riding example from each and also an unknown candidate.

The school of legerete dvds don't show as much of the basics in detail but show him teaching lots of different people through the levels.

I am maybe a little obsessed haha! But his methods changed my horses so much
 
I've watched the dvds, got the book etc - my last instructor taught along the lines of his methods. I like them, but tend to just ride now as works, throw in a few of his ideas, a few others, and what just seems to work. I like to remain flexible! :)
 
Yes of course I can. His methods are based on the biomechanics of the horse using research from the ancient dressage masters so they are true classical principles keeping the horses welfare a priority. So no tight nosebands, over flexion, harsh training methods or any 'gadgets' of any kind just to name a few. He makes a clear method that respect the nature of the horse and that ANY horse can do dressage.

He uses a different training scale to the German on we use. At the centre is respect to the horse. Around this are relaxation (legerete to the hand), balance (legerete to the seat) and impulsion (legerete to the leg). These three points are linked meaning you can't have one without the other. These points combined lead to legerete (lightness) enabling the rider to work on flexibility leading towards suppleness. Working on this leads to straightness and rhythm. All these lead to cadence and collection.

The work starts with working he jaw using flexions in halt. This creates lightness to the hand and promotes self carriage. The hands are lifted to act on the corners of the mouth rather than backwards onto the sensitive tongue and lowered as an end result when the horse gives. This begins in hand and continues through ridden work. If the horse loses the flexions or resists it is halted and reflexed so work never becomes a battle. When the horse is relaxed voltes and lateral bend and lateral work are introduced. As work progresses the horse is asked to flex at the poll (through maintaining a light outside contact).

It takes time and focuses on balance and lightness. The methods are so easy to follow. I have never seen a horse resist or become tense when this training is used.

To have one method to work perfectly on almost 40 horses I think is proof in itself that can work for any horse and rider. A lot of competition riders disregard it as at first you can't have a fixed hand position and judges won't accept it. It is not a quick fix but after practicing it for less than 5 months on my horses I now just need and upward vibration on the rein.

Hope that all makes sense!
 
That sounds really interesting and like something I would want to learn more about.

I am really determined to train my horse correctly and think the DVDs could be useful.

I think some of the things I have been doing lately with my trainer may be similar.

Is there a particular one you would recommend starting with to see if it's for me and give me some inspiration for my young lady?
 
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The system he uses certainly works for us.. I found his books very good.. I have his long reining book, Academic Art of Riding and Twisted Truths.. Its basically the French military school which is largely Baucherist tho not completely.. The DVDs are good but the thing to watch is that he makes it look very very simple and they don't give an realistic impression of real time in their progression.

Personally I think his amended scales of training make a lot of sense.
 
It is worth pointing out that even Baucher was not a Baucherist having renounced his earlier training methods of mobilizing the lower jaw and neck of the horse through severe flexions. Ironically what led him to revise his position was an accident that reduced the strength of his legs, so he could no longer force the horses forwards (at his own time Baucher was criticised for causing horses to refuse to go forwards through the severity of the jaw and neck flexions). The later Baucher advocates the flexions only for the young horse.
 
Philippe Karl bases his methods on all the classical masters though and not just baucher! He doesn't use a great flexion when the horse is moving only halt (same as carrot stretches)... And he certainly never FORCES horses forward.

I also second volume 1. It starts with the real basics in-hand and then ridden
 
Philippe Karl bases his methods on all the classical masters though and not just baucher! He doesn't use a great flexion when the horse is moving only halt (same as carrot stretches)... And he certainly never FORCES horses forward.

I also second volume 1. It starts with the real basics in-hand and then ridden
 
Booboos said:
It is worth pointing out that even Baucher was not a Baucherist having renounced his earlier training methods of mobilizing the lower jaw and neck of the horse through severe flexions. Ironically what led him to revise his position was an accident that reduced the strength of his legs, so he could no longer force the horses forwards (at his own time Baucher was criticised for causing horses to refuse to go forwards through the severity of the jaw and neck flexions). The later Baucher advocates the flexions only for the young horse.
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mm the term Baucherist is not a great one when one compares the his first and second manner.. they are very different.. I tend to forget that for most Baucherist implies his first manner when I really only think of his second.. ho hmm

For those who aren't at all Baucherist.. his 2nd manner is subtler and softer.. as a result of a riding accident he could no longer use the force he used in his first.. There's a great little red book written by one his followers Beudant.. Horse Training Out-Door and High School.. terrific pics of pre Danloux / Caprilli jumping

Highly recommended also is Effective Horsemanship by G N Jackson (polo rider who trained at Mafra) also unfortunately out of print
 
I have very recently come across this, and still at the tentative, beginner stage, but it is making a difference to my horse. I feel a bit lonely as I don't know anyone else in my area.
Where abouts are you LGS?
 
I have never met him nor studied his methods.

You seem to be an uber-fan, judging by the threads you have started today. Try not to repeat yourself so often, you will appear more trustworthy.
 
Hurry Up said:
I have never met him nor studied his methods.

You seem to be an uber-fan, judging by the threads you have started today. Try not to repeat yourself so often, you will appear more trustworthy.
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Then don't get involved on something you know nothing about and don't judge others for their opinions. There was no need for that comment it just makes you look pathetic and bitchy especially as you have no knowledge or interest of the topic.

An uber fan I am not. If a method works, gets my horses to improve while being relaxed and happy then I'm all for it I actually want to succeed in this sport.

Read the reason I actually wrote the thread... for OPINIONS on his method of teaching. I am not here to promote it. People asked and I answered. I actually expected a lot of people to object to his methods. Every horse I have tried it on it has worked but I expect there are ones that haven't been successful and I was interested to hear about those.
 
I can't see why anyone would object - I think any objection would come from picking up a single thing and not getting the whole picture. Sadly too common in the horse world.

I have to say that I was rather shell-shocked at my first introduction. It was all so different; throw out all your dressage books! However, the proof was in the riding and I watched my horse being ridden and he has never looked better, I could see he was using himself correctly and when I rode him it was like riding a new horse.

Even the farrier noticed that his shoes are wearing differently, for the better and the physio was very pleased with him at the last visit, so hopefully we are doing the right thing.

The DVD is very good, very clear. The Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage is a bit of a mish-mash, although very interesting all the same.

I am not a dedicated dressage person, and both me and my horse are getting on a bit now, but if I had a youngster I would definitly start him in this way ( ................ now don't start looking at For Sale sites).
 
Think i will order the series 1 now...!

Can someone please explain how you mobilise the jaw? and do you always come back to a halt to do this?
 
My DVD arrived and I've just watched it, very interesting and easy to understand what he does and the reasoning behind it seems logical and makes sense to me... Now to go and have a go with my youngster and see what she makes of his in hand principles!
 
If I'm honest I'm pretty ignorant about the whole thing but am interested in learning more. I might get the first DVD and see what I think.

I do have the DVD 'classical versus classique' and although it was interesting viewing I didn't come away feeling inspired!

Has anyone else seen it and what did you think?

CH's demo horse - I agreed with PK that the horse's fundemental way of going (esp the Piaffe/passage) was wrong, however I supported CH's view that the horse looked happy and relaxed in his work and fitted the CH description of 'happy athlete'

PK's demo horse - very impressive that such a bog standard horse could be taught those moves. However I supported CH's view that the moves were staged / circus like and the horse didn't look happy in it's work ... until they put up a fence and it then looked a different creature!

I found CH far clearer in explaining his views and I found PK disappointing in an educational way, he didn't offer constructive views, just ranted a lot!!!
 
Was it PK who appeared in the video of a demo on a friesian, who really didn't respond to the flexions? Not sure if anyone can remember it was an old thread
 
ester said:
Was it PK who appeared in the video of a demo on a friesian, who really didn't respond to the flexions? Not sure if anyone can remember it was an old thread
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No I think that was Gerd Herschmann.

If you can get to see the GH basic biomechanics lecture that is utterly amazing.

The same couldn't be said of the bits of ridden clinics I watched!
 
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