Philippe Karl

I feel similarly about Phillipe Karl as I do about Monty Roberts - lots of interesting stuff and methods which dovetail with my own interests and experiences, but the man himself puts me off! ;) Which is not to invalidate the information but in both cases they represent schools of thought that I think have much more realistic and sympathetic practioners. As they say, riding is like religion and I'm naturally suspicious of fanatics and demi-gods. I understand that PK has to define his methods by their opposition to the current majority practice but I think it does a disservice to say it's the only light touch around.

Re the average horses, the same could be said of Eric Herbermann's The Dressage Formula They don't come more average than his lot!

(Disclaimer - I am not primarily a dressage rider and have a pretty eclectic background and practice so am perhaps less inclined than some to follow a single school of thought or even discipline. :)

On a related note I saw Heuschman when he was doing the "anti-rolkur roadshow" with Balkenhol and Debbie MacDonald. But the subsequent videos I've seen and some insider knowledge of his own riding background have not helped the cause, in my opinion. Or maybe they have - by showing that have theories and knowing how things SHOULD be is not always the same thing as being able to put them effectively into practice.

One thing I have noticed about great horsemen is they are curious and interested in anyone working with horses well, even if they don't share all their beliefs and practices. It makes me nervous when anyone says "My way is the only way to end up with a sane, sound, well trained horse."
 
As I said before, I am very, very new to this and still having to absorb everything new concepts.

I find it interesting that PK does clinics in this country and will only take Riding Instructors and they have to apply with a CV, so he is obviously only wants to teach the French method to educated riders who can see the whole picture and have lots of experience. So although I found the DVD very clear, I would be wary of thinking that one 60 minute DVD is the whole story.

The end result - a light, obedient horse that can do the full range of dressage movements with ease - is the same whether you try the German or French way, but currently the most widely understood and taught is the German school and I for one didn't even know there was another method (shows my ignorance). I only knew that I wasn't making any progress with my horse's schooling and I wondered why despite having lots of lessons. This French method obviously suits my horse's conformation and he seems very happy with everything I am doing at the moment.
 
I think we're using "Fench" (or French Lght) in the academic sense, as the name of the school of riding, not the country.

It's not like the French are really a current dressage power, though. ;) Despite their military dressage/CN history. They made a big fuss years ago now about starting to produce more dressage lines (since they can't ride anything for Teams that isn't French) but nothing really seemed to come of it.
 
TarrSteps, I know completely what you mean about PK, I found him as a person a bit irritating but what he was saying/doing made sense and appeared to work.

Im not saying I will do exactly as he does as I believe there is a balance between classical dressage and sport dressage for the rider who isn't looking to be an Olympian but I found his methods interesting and the way it can be related to an 'average' horse made me want to try some of what he did in DVD 1.
 
Pixiepoo said:
TarrSteps, I know completely what you mean about PK, I found him as a person a bit irritating but what he was saying/doing made sense and appeared to work.

Im not saying I will do exactly as he does as I believe there is a balance between classical dressage and sport dressage for the rider who isn't looking to be an Olympian but I found his methods interesting and the way it can be related to an 'average' horse made me want to try some of what he did in DVD 1.
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They say you should never meet your heroes. :D It's so personal preference, too, as I've met horsemen I really liked as people, knowing full well that's not the majority view. By and large, too, people who are good with horses aren't always that good with people . . .

You are completely right, it doesn't take away from the methods, it just makes me a bit nervous when people get evangelical, especially when they have the gift of the gab and all of a sudden have people following them who perhaps don't have the experience or support around them. The flip side is then, if/when it does go wrong then everyone around them blames the system, which isn't fair either. There seems to be such a trend now to these big productions, which can turn people's heads a bit, particularly if they're not operating in a competitive atmosphere. I don't think it's good for people, let alone horsemen, to be surrounded by acolytes and positoned against an enemy all the time. ;)

I think it's great when people examine different views and start to ask how and why things work, no matter what the original motivation.
 
Separated from whatever you think of his methods, I'd like to say that PK is an exceptionally kind man with a deep love for his horses. He has been more generous to my family in a desperate time of need more than you could imagine and it upsets me to read that people will form a judgement on him based on no personal knowledge.
 
Woah woah woah, themule, I'm not saying he isn't kind, generous etc! I think your misinterpreting what I've written. At no point has anyone said they don't respect him for what he does or expressed dislike for him as a person. It's just personal preference, everyone prefers different people, I think he's a great horseman! And everyone forms opinions of people they watch/read about, it's human nature.
 
Pixiepoo said:
Woah woah woah, themule, I'm not saying he isn't kind, generous etc! I think your misinterpreting what I've written. At no point has anyone said they don't respect him for what he does or expressed dislike for him as a person. It's just personal preference, everyone prefers different people, I think he's a great horseman! And everyone forms opinions of people they watch/read about, it's human nature.
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This. :)

I don't know him as a person and would never judge his personal life, his generosity, or his humanity. I was merely commenting on how I personally, perceive him in his public performance, which is, after all part of what he's selling, and how it relates to my personal thoughts on how trainers are often promoted these days. You have to admit he's been quite outspoken and is justifiably confident in his methods, so I doubt he would mind other people speaking their opinions in turn. I'm very glad to hear he's lovely. :)
 
I found his DVDs a good insight to what he all about and the results in the last DVD is impressive for me. I do like Phillipe Karl.
 
if any of you guys are particularly interested in PK, he's running a teacher training course in the UK at the moment (and I'm one of the "auditors" on it). Unfortunately as he does like people to sign up to watch the whole course, there are no new places for this course but he may well be doing another one starting in 2014.

In the meantime, one of his established teachers is now coming over to the UK for regular clinics, over in Northants.

TarrSteps, I know what you mean about the not meeting your heros thing.... but I couldn't resist ;) .... tho I have to say in this case I'm glad I have. (Also on a Mark Rashid clinic in May - yikes, I hope that particular hero will also come through it OK in my mind, I'm such a big fan of his books....!)
 
Ooh, where and when is the Mark Rashid one? Have you read his latest book?

I have to say, every time I've met someone I really admire, I've liked them - even if that's not the majority view! :D
 
Out of interest does anyone know who PK trains at the 'top level', i.e. competing internationally, selected for teams, etc.? Or which horses which have been trained by him or his instructors are out competing internationally?

It's not a definitive indicator of a trainer's skill but these kinds of results are interesting to see. It was very interesting to see Jan Bemelmans take over the Spanish DR team and break all the stereotypical worries about PREs.
 
After reading this thread I brought Classical Dressage Vol 1 - The School of Aids and I found is refreshingly simple :D

The lungeing bit was great - exactly what I do with my boy, although I didn't know changing the rein like that was good for the reasons PK stated... it's just how i've always done it, but given me the confidence to do more... I tend to just lunge if i haven't got much time. But so nice to see a horse going like my horse and it's ok! Phew!

The in-hand stuff was completely new to me and I havent tried that yet, but the over-all principle of lifting the head and acting on the corners or the mouth rather than the tongue is exactly how I was trained and very similar to what Michael Peace got me to do with my boy when he came to visit us last year!

I also really like how he explained SI, renvers and travers.... off to buy the next one :D
 
My RI is one of the people he's training at the moment. I only started having lessons from her a few months ago but she's already made a difference to me and my 2 horses. The older one who's always been heavy on the forehand is now much more light and flexible, I'm learning to ride well, rather than just being able to ride and my younger horse is being prepped for rebacking in a very thorough way, and she's loving the way she's being taught and then asked to do things.

I do need to see his DVD's but have read some stuff he's written.
 
I don't think PK does train anyone "at the top level" as such. From what I can gather from his books, he is more interested in the art of classical riding for its own sake, not to go out and beat the competition.

Again, from what I read, he left the Cadre Noir in order to go around the world and teach riding instructors, for the sake of the horses.

As for Mark Rashid - well he may look like a cowboy, but by crickey I was impressed when I saw him at a clinic. I was lucky that there was a dressage lady as a pupil and he was able to sort her dressage problem easily.
 
Orangehorse said:
I don't think PK does train anyone "at the top level" as such. From what I can gather from his books, he is more interested in the art of classical riding for its own sake, not to go out and beat the competition.
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To be honest I suspected that might be the case and it's this kind of stuff that bugs me. So the guy is brilliant but won't share his brilliance with anyone else competing at the top levels of the sport? Why ever not? Good trainers attract top riders whether they like it or not, has he been turning them down to concentrate on his lesser known pupils?

Presumably he has a yard full of amazing GP horses but won't sell them to anyone or allow anyone to ride them to represent his country (which is fairly average when it comes to dressage and could do with a serious boost).

And if he is so keen on the art of riding for its own sake why doesn't he set up a charitable foundation and give out his lessons/DVDs for free? It's love for the art of riding as long as you're willing to pay him.
 
Booboos said:
To be honest I suspected that might be the case and it's this kind of stuff that bugs me. So the guy is brilliant but won't share his brilliance with anyone else competing at the top levels of the sport? Why ever not? Good trainers attract top riders whether they like it or not, has he been turning them down to concentrate on his lesser known pupils?
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He does.. he trains teachers so that they can spread his knowledge.. far better than some elite competitor might..

Booboos said:
Presumably he has a yard full of amazing GP horses but won't sell them to anyone or allow anyone to ride them to represent his country (which is fairly average when it comes to dressage and could do with a serious boost).
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I think having spent time and effort training his horse/s according to his methods I imagine someone else who did not ride that way probably wouldn't manage to get the best from them...

Booboos said:
And if he is so keen on the art of riding for its own sake why doesn't he set up a charitable foundation and give out his lessons/DVDs for free? It's love for the art of riding as long as you're willing to pay him.
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He has to pay for his and his horse's keep ;)
 
booboos, PK is actually quite involved with the FEI/ liaising with them on the structuring of dressage tests, etc, etc...... unfortunately, though, because he's got himself a bit of a reputation for challenging some of the FEI's practices (e.g. not banning Rolkhur, etc), it's probably fair to say that he is "contraversial" at top level.

As I understand it from attending various of PK's lectures, actually there are a number of GP riders that go to him, but they tend to be for specific issues, when more mainstream competitive methods have been exhausted already. So I'm not sure there is anyone competing at GP level who would say that PK is their only trainer, but that's not to say that he doesn't get involved in training people at that level.

Also, one of the things I really like about PK, is his belief that you don't need to have a warmblood to be able to do piaffe/ passage, etc, etc. If you look through his books, you'll see that he regularly takes on students (generally for a year at a time) and often those students will have perfectly "normal" horses that train up to do the GP movements in the year they are with him. However, of course because we're still talking about horses not blessed with the naturally extravagant movement expected for GP competition, you won't see them out on the international dressage circuit.

For me, the measure of a trainer is not just who he's trained to GP level, but to see him ride and to see how he is with his horses and his students, and the results that he can get with them. It also says a lot to me that an individual is happy to train horses that are "nothing special" and not only believe that they can do the GP movements, but proove that they indeed can.
 
dressage_diva said:
Out of interest, which of PK's dvd's is the best one to start with?

The classical dressage vol 1:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Classical-D...TF8&coliid=I2T7IP8H62MFPJ&colid=3R7DV20O6LRNI
OR
The School of Legerete Part 1:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Philippe-Ka...6RRI/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1328540328&sr=8-6

I'm interested in learning more about his methods, but am not sure which dvd to get?
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The classical dressage vol 1 is best. It's clear, starts with and explains the basics :)
 
They have some lovely riders but let's face it, their highest ranked rider is 93rd! (riding a Spanish horse no less!) Even CANADA has someone in the top 50! And their studbook is 22nd.

All that aside, this isn't really a discussion about competition dressage and that doesn't bother me one bit. There are lots of great horsemen who don't compete and/or don't focus on the FEI disciplines. It is interesting though that PK is quite open that FEI competitive dressage is not his main goal yet he seems so involved and invested in the process. I realise he wants to effect change from the inside but I wonder if the two schools are even compatible now?
 
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