Photographers beware......

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wildoat

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www.tophotos.co.uk
I was at a BE affiliated event yesterday taking photographs around the XC course, I was approached by a high ranking BE official who demanded to know why I was taking photographs, there was as he informed me an official event photographer in attendance. I said I was aware of that fact and even that I knew the photographer he was referring to, I assured him I wasn`t there to sell my images, but the official seemed slightly concerned that I was using pro level camera gear.
I later came across the event photographer and he advised me I may be ejected from the event, for taking photographs.
To say I am slightly angry about what happened is an understatement, I am a BE member and very keen photographer, I was surprised by the attitude of the official and the event photographer. When at any event if approached by any competitors about photos I make point of telling them who the official event photographer is.
On a few occasions I have taken photographs for horse owners etc who have asked me in advance, this I feel is very different from going around a course
advertising myself which I certainly don`t do.

I have no hidden agenda and am always pleased to identify myself if necessary, I don`t ride but I do have a real appreciation of the sport and admiration for all the riders and have become quite friendly with some of the
competitors and fence judges/stewards etc.

Yesterdays experience was the first time I have experienced any negative attitude towards me and it was unnecessary in my view, my only crime apparently was using a high quality camera.

Any thoughts on this subject appreciated.
 
Buy a cheaper looking camera!!!:D

My OH has also been approached at a SJ event buy an official and he couldn't understand why my OH would be taking photos of people he didn't know?!!?
I can sort of see their point but he just explained he was an amateur photographer and he wasn't selling his photos.
My OH has been asked by people on the yard to take pics of their horses doing different disciplines for their personal use and for photos for when they want to sell, to put on the Internet.
He also takes the yard show photos but has to get permission from the parents before he's allowed to take photos of the children and their ponies...I personally think that's a bit OTT?!!?

I'm sure it was a one off and you know your not doing anything wrong. However my OH when arriving at the show goes to see the photographer to let him know what he's doing so if challenged the official photographer knows about him...and i also think it's an excuse for him to compare equipment :rolleyes:
 
Thats very very unfair of them, having seen the quality of so called professional photographers photographs (I too am a keen photography done as a hobby but have also done numerous courses and know how to use a camera unlike these people who set up their own businesses point and shoot and people pay a fortune for rubbish photos) I think you are perfectly entitled to take pictures as thats part of the day you are enjoying. The other week my friend was at a show and she had her photo taken by a so called pro, she showed me it and I said "I am sorry but to a non-professional hobby photographer that looks rubbish". Over exposed with all sorts of junk in the back ground and the horse was not even stood straight. She paid £15 for it when any fool could have took a better one.

Carry on and good luck with your hobby and people if it looks rubbish dont buy it just for the sake of buying it.
 
What a shame that officials have to act like that. Ive recently started taking up photography as I no longer ride and plan on going to events just to get as much practise as possible and purely for my own enjoyment (Im also still a BE associate member) I will quite often take pictures of friends like you say but that is completely different. In no way im I there to undercut the pro photographers, my photos are no where near good enough (btw yours are brilliant wildoat, i'd love to take photos like yours eventually).

I think if you explain yourself to an offical if asked, they shouldnt have a problem. I assume they may have had problems in the past 'non-official' photographers taking pictures and selling them? However the negative attitude is really not necessary.
 
hmmm..... when I first read your post I thought you meant you were taking photos round the course, of the fences etc, which I do at every comp I go to. Photography is also a hobby of mine, at a basic level, lol.

But am I reading right that you take photos of people and their horses? Most of which you dont know? If thats not the case then please ignore what Im about to say....


when I go to a show I know there is probably going to be a prof photographer there and I always look on their websites to see any pics of me and my horse. I have also on occasion bought some... but I also like to know exactly WHO has photos of us and Im reassured by the fact that the photographers up here tend to say on their websites that they are happy to remove any images that you would prefer they didn't have on their site. As professional photographers I am also reassured that they are bound by a code of conduct and the policies/rules of the event organisers.

Having some person I dont know, who isnt engaged by the show organisers, taking pictures of me/horse is something that makes me uncomfortable and I feel is an invasion of privacy.

The same applies when I am competing with my dogs and Im afraid I have before today , very politely, asked someone to please put their flipping camera away as Im standing on the start line aware of a lens aimed at me - whats more, I once had an amateur video/film club crew appear behind me making a film for a comp and I had NOT given my permission! I complained then also as I feel quite strongly about this - can you tell:o

sorry OP, no offence meant to you.... Im probably in the minority. As I said, Im also a lover of photography, but I never take pics of people I dont know or without asking.
 
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Show photographers take pictures without people knowing and put them on websites without permission. Often you can go to shows and they havent even said a "pro" (define that how ever you like) would be there taking photos so it applies to them as well and they are often taking pictures of children and putting them on websites.
 
Not sure why people should mind having their photo taken buy someone other than the "Pro" There are many sporting events where there are "Pro's" and amateurs are both taking pics and officials don't challenge people.
Whether the "pro" or amateur decide to sell their photos is up to them, they own the rights to that picture not the person in it.
If i went to a football match and took a photo of David Beckham picking his nose then that's up to me what i do with it not David. There are official photographers at the F1 but if i take a picture of Jenson Button holding up a trophy for my own personal use then i wouldn't get the FIA asking me to stop so I'm not sure why horse riders should be the exception.
I can understand if the photographer is putting someone off that that person can ask for them to stop but you can't stop people taking photos.
Just because someone has an expensive or professional looking camera doesn't mean they are doing anymore harm than someone taking your photo using their camera phone or digital camera.
People take photos for many reasons but often it's to get the perfect photo of that scene...Photographers can't just take photos of flowers all day!!!
Don't get me wrong, it's not as if my OH goes into people back gardens and snaps you whilst your sunbathing but if you happen to be in a photograph in a public place, there are many people around (possibly taking photos with a less professional camera) then I'm not sure if there is anything wrong with that.
 
i went the races the other week. yeah the races! and i got some many dodgy looks its unreal

I do the odd bit of paid work - i have a website etc but i have not/will not sell any snaps of my work that are from shojumping/races random pics.- only the work i do for people. so if im at a BSJA/BE event doing pics - they are practise.

So for those at local events getting photos taken, i dont see what your problem is as long as these pics are not sold (but the tog has every right to do so anyhow...)....and honestly i woudl see it as a compliment.
 
I have checked the BE website and rule book and am not aware of any restrictions placed on photography when visiting events. Since events are open to public entrance they are, for the purposes of privacy laws, deemed to be public areas and so, unless there are conditions of entry clearly stating restrictions to photography, you are free to photograph whom and what you like (within the bounds of decency and child protection etc). The official had no right to try and prevent you, nor any right to eject you from the event. I stand to be corrected if, indeed, there are any specific clauses regarding photography either in general for BE, or for specific event locations.

I have some pro-looking gear and have never had a problem, although have been approached by the event pro more than once demanding to know who I worked for. I take pictures of my own horse for pleasure (and to save the need to buy one from the pro).
 
NeverSayNever said:
hmmm..... when I first read your post I thought you meant you were taking photos round the course, of the fences etc, which I do at every comp I go to. Photography is also a hobby of mine, at a basic level, lol.

But am I reading right that you take photos of people and their horses? Most of which you dont know? If thats not the case then please ignore what Im about to say....


when I go to a show I know there is probably going to be a prof photographer there and I always look on their websites to see any pics of me and my horse. I have also on occasion bought some... but I also like to know exactly WHO has photos of us and Im reassured by the fact that the photographers up here tend to say on their websites that they are happy to remove any images that you would prefer they didn't have on their site. As professional photographers I am also reassured that they are bound by a code of conduct and the policies/rules of the event organisers.

Having some person I dont know, who isnt engaged by the show organisers, taking pictures of me/horse is something that makes me uncomfortable and I feel is an invasion of privacy.

The same applies when I am competing with my dogs and Im afraid I have before today , very politely, asked someone to please put their flipping camera away as Im standing on the start line aware of a lens aimed at me - whats more, I once had an amateur video/film club crew appear behind me making a film for a comp and I had NOT given my permission! I complained then also as I feel quite strongly about this - can you tell:o

sorry OP, no offence meant to you.... Im probably in the minority. As I said, Im also a lover of photography, but I never take pics of people I dont know or without asking.
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Thanks for taking the time to express your views and I respect that completely.

There are a few issues I disagree with however.

My incentive for taking photos at equestrian events is primarily first to further my skill as a photographer, I have been photographing many sports for over twenty years and believe it or not I am still learning and trying to capture the perfect image, I do always consider my subject and if I thought the subject was unhappy I would refrain. Anyone is more than welcome to see the photos I take and I hope they would agree my work as a photographer whether pro or amateur is a celebration of the sport and nothing else.
I would never out of respect exhibit, publish or even show any image which portrayed the subject in a disrespectful or negative way, that is not what I am about.
As for being recorded with still or digital images whilst in a public place, it happens to all of us all of the time, take a walk down your local high street and the chances are you have been caught on video, who looks at these images and what exactly are they used for, perhaps you can tell me!

Maybe I have opened a can of worms with this subject, that`s not a problem as I am trying to be honest and up front with people, I appreciate everyone has different opinions, I still think it will be a sad day when we can`t celebrate and promote any sport through the medium of photography.
 
figbat said:
I have checked the BE website and rule book and am not aware of any restrictions placed on photography when visiting events. Since events are open to public entrance they are, for the purposes of privacy laws, deemed to be public areas and so, unless there are conditions of entry clearly stating restrictions to photography, you are free to photograph whom and what you like (within the bounds of decency and child protection etc). The official had no right to try and prevent you, nor any right to eject you from the event. I stand to be corrected if, indeed, there are any specific clauses regarding photography either in general for BE, or for specific event locations.

I have some pro-looking gear and have never had a problem, although have been approached by the event pro more than once demanding to know who I worked for. I take pictures of my own horse for pleasure (and to save the need to buy one from the pro).
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thats the problem though... they dont like it..

i do mine as a part time hobby and if not for friends - i will ask for payment for the photos only (not my time).....

i wouldnt blame anyone for trying to save some money on photos by taking them yourself.
 
Its happening everywhere, I can understand it in a way as there are people who turn up to events take images and sell them out of the back of their 4x4 whilst the poor official is trying to sell their images either then or later on their site

But I think really if theyed asked you and you said no its for personal use they should leave it there, you cant go around accusing everyone of doing something and threatening to kick them out when you have no proof.
 
Summerleft said:
Its happening everywhere, I can understand it in a way as there are people who turn up to events take images and sell them out of the back of their 4x4 whilst the poor official is trying to sell their images either then or later on their site

But I think really if theyed asked you and you said no its for personal use they should leave it there, you cant go around accusing everyone of doing something and threatening to kick them out when you have no proof.
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I do agree it must be difficult for the official event photographers, affecting their business is not on my wish list and there are a few event photographers
who I know and respect.

As I said I do occasionally do photographic requests for owners and competitors I know, that is between us and does not affect anyone`s business.
 
Didn't Eventing magazine run a competition for amateur photographers, where the prize was to take photos at Badminton?

I think you had to submit a portfolio of eventing photographs? So how would you be able to put together a portfolio if you couldn't take photographs at at an event?
 
:mad: If this is the case what are they going to do at Badminton and hundreds of other events up and down the land, have everyone hand in cameras and cell phones! There cannot be many people on here who, hand on heart, can say that haven't gone to an event and taken pictures of people they don't know.

Just because you have the kit doesn't mean anything. Having seen your photographs and your gallery, I think you are very talented and have an eye for a shot, personally I would buy them and I never buy professional pictures, perhaps you should take it up professionally? How does one go about that?

What a shame you have been made to feel like this, it does sound as if the event photographer was being a little dog in the mangerish, understandable before an explanation perhaps, as presumably they have to pay for the privilege of being an 'official event photographer' and are there to make some dosh at the end of the day.
 
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I took some photos at a show recently and got some dirty looks from the photographer and officials - my camera is nicer than average but not pro. The photographer realised that I was no threat in the end and was quite friendly, it just seemed such a pity for them to be so suspicious of me.

I think that if you are out in public, whether on a horse or not, you should be prepared for the fact that people can and will take photos/footage of you. It's not always what you'd like but it's allowed and will happen.
 
Never heard of Joe Public not being able to take photos of anyone or anything at a show or event, unless specifically noted for some reason. Doesn't everyone take photos for personal use? the fact you have a good camera should not make any difference. Ridiculous.:(
 
what a ridiculous thread- not ridiculous of the OP to be annoyed, but ridiculous that they have even had to post this. i don't see the issue if the photos are for own personal use. bet all the people snapping pics on their mobiles weren't told off :mad: my friend's mum is a keen photographer with a really high end camera and she always takes pics of her daughter at shows and of any friends competing there- but this is just for pleasure etc/ not business.
and i'm sorry but some people might not LIKE pictures of them to be out there (heavens, my riding is so bad that i hate some of the pro pics i've seen in the past!) but we live in a 24hr surveillance world- there will be pics of you all over the place just from walking down the street.
god this has made me really mad- OP you have my sympathy :mad:
 
I am often the "official" event photographer at shows, as it is how I make my living. If the photographs are for personal use or to supply to friends, there is very little ground for criticism , no mileage in doing so and not really any genuine grounds to object.

Now if these pictures are any good how long does it take before the photographer is told, you could sell these. Eureka! I could make some pocket money here to pay for my time or to help towards that new lens I have been hankering after. It's so easy for that line to get crossed and often very difficult for the "official" photographer to determine whether the actions and intentions are open and honest, or clandestine. Facebook is being used as a marketing tool by many photographers who have a talent, but can't justify the business logic of investing in a trailer, on site printing equipment, staff training, marketing, insurance, a properly maintained website. It's just so much easier to spend the day there for free, take the pictures of those who may have already requested it ( obviously via FB) and then the pictures are exchanged via FB. Upload, tag etc. It's a sort of operating your business by stealth and to be honest although I can appreciate that it is a streamlined and targeted model, it does still undermine the efforts of the official photographer. At a recent riding club event I had just such an incident who kept badgering the organisers until they agreed he could attend. He also took the time and some trouble to get the agreement of a local magazine who will pay for his submission of photographs, who were not made aware he was not the official photographer at the event. As the official photographer his actions were to me questionable and somewhat unethical, as I submit articles to the same magazine.

During the course of the day I kept hearing reports of a photographer nearly being run over by several riders as his positioning close to the cross country fence was reckless to say the least. Was it the stealth FB marketing photographer or not or just some overeager wannabe just being a touch too intrepid for his own and the riders good? I never dicisovered but I had several people that automatically assumed it was one of my official photographers. By verifying which jump the shots were being taken at we were able to eliminate our photographers from the enquiry.

Ok so what if a rider and or horse is injured as result of the actions of an amateur photographer through bad positioning, inappropriate use of flash or simple lack of attention and being in the path of said horse and rider when they approach the jump. What happens when it goes legal? Ouch what a mess. Where's the liability cover insurance then? I don't this is scaremongering just a cold reality that has to be addressed logically and thoughtfully. If my actions or those of my staff were at fault, I have the assurance that I can produce my public insurance. prove due diligence by producing a set of measures taken to reduce any risk and a set of course walk pictures that should prove that our choice of jump, position etc was considered and logical, rather inopportune or random or impromptu.

Imaging rights at the higher levels of football and F1 are very closely guarded when the usage changes from personal to commercial. Media exclusivity is the norm. I suspect we will begin to see these rights and practices being exercised and enforced more by "official" photographers to protect the investment they have made in kit, infrastructure, marketing, insurance etc.
 
The other reason event organisers might get a bit awkward about people other than the 'official' photographer being there, is that the photographer peobably has an agreement to pay a percentage of the profits to the organisers. If there is therefore someone taking pictures for sale they undermine both the official photographer and the organisers. Most events have some phrasing in the small print about people being there at the organisers discretion. You are not in a public place, but on private land with permission, which can be withdrawn at any time.
 
enfys said:
:mad: If this is the case what are they going to do at Badminton and hundreds of other events up and down the land, have everyone hand in cameras and cell phones! There cannot be many people on here who, hand on heart, can say that haven't gone to an event and taken pictures of people they don't know.

Just because you have the kit doesn't mean anything. Having seen your photographs and your gallery, I think you are very talented and have an eye for a shot, personally I would buy them and I never buy professional pictures, perhaps you should take it up professionally? How does one go about that?

What a shame you have been made to feel like this, it does sound as if the event photographer was being a little dog in the mangerish, understandable before an explanation perhaps, as presumably they have to pay for the privilege of being an 'official event photographer' and are there to make some dosh at the end of the day.
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Ha Ha, Enfys is this not the same in your part of the world? My OH often does pix at the team chases in the UK for H&H and has had to introduce himself to the event photographers (they all get on really well now!) and reassure them he's not selling pix to the competitors.
But at the AQHA world show in Oklahoma City last year, where he was working for me, taking publicity photos for show sponsor John Deere, with full permission of the organisers, he was physically cornered by the photographer's assistant - they do not tolerate ANYONE else taking professional quality pix - unsurprising as their pix START at $100 to buy :)
Anyway he explained what he was doing, they calmed down and even invited him into the pit during the cutting, when he was almost flattened by a stray calf :D He wouldn't have missed it for the world!
 
Conditions of entry often exclude commercial photography without express permission being granted. Therefore I can see why an official would ask questions about a pro level camera being seen, as it doesn't look like a hobby photographer.

This is the case at all kinds of events, not just sporting ones, in fact if you enter any national trust property (and they do host a number of BE events, such as Belton) you will find that photography for commercial purposes is prohibited.

In the case of the national trust it is because "unofficial" photos of their buildings/grounds etc undermine their own income. If they can control which photographers enter their properties and take photos they can ensure that they obtain a share in the proceeds of any sales. If any old visitor can sell photos of the house/bridge/gardens etc then the number of sales of official photographs through their own gift shops will decrease.

I'm not defending the actions of the BE official, afterall they could at least be polite, but perhaps they did have cause for approaching you.
 
As I said I have checked the rules in the BE rule book and although there is no restriction on photography that I can find, there is a clause regarding media rights, which are controlled by BE. So whilst taking pictures of anyone and everyone at an event is not restricted (whether you like it or agree to it or not), any commercial activity that trades on or relies on the name or underlying presence and ativity of British Eventing is protected. Selling pictures of BE members, competing under the control of BE and as a consequence of BE's activity may or may not fall into this category; I am no media (or, in fact, any other kind of) lawyer so can't say.

**EDIT** - the post above was entered as I was typing mine; this was not a response to that one - just to be clear!
 
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figbat said:
As I said I have checked the rules in the BE rule book and although there is no restriction on photography that I can find, there is a clause regarding media rights, which are controlled by BE. So whilst taking pictures of anyone and everyone at an event is not restricted (whether you like it or agree to it or not), any commercial activity that trades on or relies on the name or underlying presence and ativity of British Eventing is protected. Selling pictures of BE members, competing under the control of BE and as a consequence of BE's activity may or may not fall into this category; I am no media (or, in fact, any other kind of) lawyer so can't say.
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It isn't just the BE rulebook though, it is also the venue who may have their own specific rules. Did you read the small print on the back of your ticket/the programme?
 
wildoat said:
I was at a BE affiliated event yesterday taking photographs around the XC course, I was approached by a high ranking BE official who demanded to know why I was taking photographs, there was as he informed me an official event photographer in attendance. I said I was aware of that fact and even that I knew the photographer he was referring to, I assured him I wasn`t there to sell my images, but the official seemed slightly concerned that I was using pro level camera gear.
I later came across the event photographer and he advised me I may be ejected from the event, for taking photographs.
To say I am slightly angry about what happened is an understatement, I am a BE member and very keen photographer, I was surprised by the attitude of the official and the event photographer. When at any event if approached by any competitors about photos I make point of telling them who the official event photographer is.
On a few occasions I have taken photographs for horse owners etc who have asked me in advance, this I feel is very different from going around a course
advertising myself which I certainly don`t do.

I have no hidden agenda and am always pleased to identify myself if necessary, I don`t ride but I do have a real appreciation of the sport and admiration for all the riders and have become quite friendly with some of the
competitors and fence judges/stewards etc.

Yesterdays experience was the first time I have experienced any negative attitude towards me and it was unnecessary in my view, my only crime apparently was using a high quality camera.

Any thoughts on this subject appreciated.
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Having read through all the posts I can see the position of all who have posted and they're all valid. However....in this modern world of ever evolving technology and communication, isn't it to be expected that the 'old fashioned' way of printing off photo's is not going to survive? This is a competitive world and it stands to reason that existing business models will be challenged by new upcoming ideas...surely the entrepreneur should not be bound by 'old school tie' restrictions....I bet Richard Branson didn't let that happen! In my view, most of the 'official event photographers' have been a bit left behind! The quality of the pictures is about what I can achieve with no training other than 6th form art class and some intelligent research....I appreciate art on a number of levels and I think I have a reasonable eye for a nice 'picture but I do still forget about 'clutter' etc. However, as I'm not paying £15 to £20 for my own 'mess' and can edit at home on my lap top...what the heck!

I bought myself a decent camera because most of the 'official event photographers' pictures of my horse were so poor I could not bring myself to pay the money asked...as I said I think I can do as well as most...there are some exceptions of course! If 'official' photographers can't cope with competitive market...and this goes to event organisers and BE too...and up their game a bit then it's a sad world. In my 'real' profession, if I were only able to stay at the top of my game by blocking the progress of others, I would most certainly not be doing my professional development any favours at all!!!!! The paying public should be allowed to vote with their feet...if the 'official' photographer is doing a 'marketable' job there is no threat from anyone else with a camera who may be on site! Perhaps the day of the 'official' event photographer is over and the free market should allow the paying public the freedom of choice they deserve! Either that or we become so PC the Government bans all camera's except the CCTV that watches us in every city street and more!"
 
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