*photos* chronic pastern dermatitis/ Chronic Progressive Lympedema

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jennie1000

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My mare has the above condition. The vet has suggested keeping the legs clipped out as dirt gets between the creases and then infections set it. Currently I was them once a week in malaseb shampoo (hibiscrub seems to burn the skin, even dilute) dry the legs thouraghly then rub in equamins udder cream which i mix a bit of sulphur into. The trouble is by the end of the week the dirt is getting into the skin. The vet gave me a sulphated lime wash which helped but its water souable so washes away easily. Im just worried that now the legs are clipped she is going to be suceptable to mud fecer through winter.

Questions

Does anyone know about pig oil and sulphur? Ratios to mix? How to apply? Can you use brushing boots when they have this applied!?

How often should I wash her legs? and what shampoo do people reccomend?

How often do you think I should clip and how close to the skin? (currently every 2-4 weeks, no1)

I ideally want to be able to take her in an outdoor/indoor school (sand/rubber chips) but Im worried about the dirt getting in those skin folds... any suggestions?
 
Considering the condition she has, those legs look fantastic. You are obviously aware of the consequences of not looking after her.

TheresaF on here is a big pig oil and sulpher fan, so will be able to help you on that score.

The other thing that is great as a barrier, but not sure if good enough for your mare's needs is udder salve. It may also be worth looking in to.
 
Thanks amy may. I use udder cream at the moment. Is udder salve any different? I use the equimins one because its got tea tree oil in. I have emailed Theresa and just waiting for a copy of her hairy legs essay! lol
 
Will look into the othe salve then. Thanks Laura... I will have a look at that link to. From what I can gather, her immune system was triggered by something like a bout of mud fever or mites and then it just overeacts and its that busy fighting itself now that she picks up secondary infections really easy.
 
One of my horses sufferes with horrendous allergies so I can sympathise with you. He has had to have the vet as an emergency for IV cortisone 3 times now and spent literally months on prednisolone.

Problems started directly after he had major surgery - must have been the stress
 
Beauty had a really bad case of cellulitus, thats what highlighted this condition. She was on IV antibiotics for a good few months. then she was in hospital for 2 weeks on a different iv antibiotic every day. then she came home and was on predisolole for another good month. seemd to have cleared the original burst but she just seems so sensitive to everything now. Nightmare these horses.... butr we love em!" lol
 
Legs like these are hard to keep with the hair on. It can be done but you will need to use a lot of pig oil and sulphur in winter so the hair keeps the dirt, sulphur in summer. You will need to check at least weekly for any signs of trouble and not let anything start up. You may still have to clip out the legs even with all the tlc.

Sadly prevention is better, hence with the two we have now, have been done since young and constantly treated and monitored to stop this happening. Once legs get like this they can be difficult to deal with.

Sweat and dirt can build up in the folds and again you will need to be careful to keep them clean and you can dust them with sulphur.

I would wash them with a mild shampoo - I find the Microtek shampoo which you can get from tailgator.co.uk is very good on skin conditions, if not you could add a few drops of tea tree and eculyptus oil to any mild shampoo as they prevent fungus and help with infection. Once they are thoroughly dry, see if she will accept a hair dryer, then I would dust the folds with sulphur and finally in winter apply P&S to act as a barrier. I would check the folds and clean them every other day and only wash weekly at most if they are covered with oil.

If the legs are left to grow out, I would try not to wash too much in winter as having wet hair will make things worse. I would get them dry, comb out well and then part the hair to check that the skin is dry. Again I would clean out the folds - cotton buds are great and dust with sulphur and then oil up the legs.

I hope you can get her feather back - it looks to be very good quality but if it does not work out with the routine above, accept that clipped legs will be the way to go. Growing back will take 6 - 8 months.
 
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I have a heavily feathered gypsy cob who has several deep 'crack's under his heels/fetlock area.

I was devastated when I had to take the feathers off due to mites/these cracks etc but I let them grow back after giving everything a good clean and he has been fully feathered again for over a year now (and got through the winter!!) which relatively few problems.

I wash legs once a week in Vetguard Shampoo (from the Vets) and there is this AMAZING lotion that the vet gives me which I apply once a week. I actually find that having the feather there protects the cracks/skin and stops the dirt etc getting in.

I do, however, clip about 2cm each side of each crack so I can regularly check them and clean them and honestly, you wouldnt know, it looks like he has a full foot of feather :D
 
That sounds like a good idea, pull the hair up and clip round the folds and then let the long hair above cover them so they get the protection - a friend has a mare like this and I will let her know what you do. She now has full feather but keeping an eye on the folds is a chore at time.
 
I had a friend with a Hairy Cob which had this too. He was not allowed feathers either. But my friend used to use a product called Stop It All, which was amazing. I actually cannot tell you how incredible the change was, From angry red and sore legs to smooth clean, non bumpy and non swollen legs took about 6 weeks from start to finish. She had tried everything from anti b's skin samples, everything, nothing really helped apart from this product. I think if you google it, it comes up, the lady who sells it is very nice, easy to chat to etc etc and all natural so its safe.
 
My old boy has very similar to you he gets feather mites which cause the irritation but his legs look very similar if left unclipped for too long. I cant help you with the pig oil situation as i dont use that. I wash his legs approx once a week if i lack it is at least once a fortnight we use dermoline shampoo reccomended by vets as very soothing (also have the dog once for wet excma on the dog).
I clip his legs off about evry 4-6weeks depending on time of year...in summer less regularly as doesnt grow much hair once clipped in winter more regularly. I use horse clippers on him with blades A2 so it is quite a close shave but i try not to actually get all hair off as i think needs to have some protection!!

Aslong as you clean legs well after going in school/muddy fields then you should be fine i dont use his brushing boots now as they tend to irritate the skin and rub in dirt/dust altho maybe sheep skin ones are better. he has bandages on but i suppose full sports boots that cover tightly to the leg would work too. Also he has keratex mudshield powder applied daily to keep the mud off and clean his legs quickly everynight and he has boots on in stable to dry legs off in winter
 
It's certainly not easy keeping mine feathered but when I think about it he had more problems without the feather as the skin was so so sensitive and it was exposed so much more to the wet, dirt and mud.
 
Hey Jennie!!

Its Vicky with Cracks - finding more and more people from my yard on here! :D

You made me think about CJ here from looking at her legs....he has a big lump that is inbetween his heel and fetlock likes yours but has not got it any further and does not seem to bother him - sometimes gets itchy....is this anything to do with what beauty has??

Mine have a good look at it tonight now....:confused:
 
Hi Vic,

There are a fair few people off the yard on here!!! Its a mine of information thow..... was kinda as my wits end with vets that didnt seem to know what they were doing so came on here and was surprised at all the useful information I got.

As for the lumps.... Lots of cobs will have skin folds. Its where the skin thickens in respose to an irritation (wether it be mites, mud fever) Beauty had always had the skin thickening on her hind legs since I bought her but what makes it different now is that she has a lowered immune system and impaired lyphatic system so she cant fight the normal bugs/bacteria. The body is that busy fighting with itself that it dosnt deal with normal things like mud fever.... and a tiny scab it a huge infection requiring antibiotics before I know it. The skin is so overly sensitive that I cant even ride her in the school as the sand grates away at her legs. She has to wear tubigriops at the moment and brushing boots over the top! what did you think of crackers legs? Herbie has those lumps too I think....

Much as I would like to try letting the feathers grow back I dont think its going to happen. The skin folds are that deep I would struggle to keep the creases clean and dry. If I dont clip into the ridges to expose them the skin deposits grease and infection sets in. I spend hours looking after her legs, always have done but Im not happy with the way new fibrotic tissue is appearing in the front legs which were almost perfect so its not worth the risk of letting them grow.
 
As I have said on another post I have a Lympodema leg human kind and my nurses made me aware that people with Lymphodema are often allergic to Lanolin dont ask me why but we are banned from using anything with Lanolin in it and we use Aqueous cream and its very very good and quiet cheap this cream is recomened in cancer care for lymphodema patients and when my husband had radio theropy they use it worth a try we have no issues with our horse so i have never had to use it.
 
I have a super sensitive horse who got this last year as part of a "system crash" following antibiotic and steroid treatment for another issue. His was much worse, resulting in ulcers appearing on his ankles literally overnight, progressing over his lower legs even while he was being treated by the vet.

Upon discussion with one of the vets, who was also from another country, coincidentally, we scratch tested him and he came up positive with a sensitivity for Hibiscrub and Sudocream, which certainly explained why the original protocol seemed to be making thing worse! In fact every "standard" treatment seemed to either do nothing or cause it to flare up.

So we went very "old school" - washing carefully every couple of days with iodine, no rinsing, and applying Furacin dressings initially 2x a day, then down to one. He improved almost immediately and then it was mostly a case of keeping the legs dry and clean and protecting the skin. He wore protective boots to go out for the rest of the winter, which may or may not have helped but I wasn't going to take the risk of finding out!

Touch wood, he's been absolutely fine this year, no boots and no treatment, although I do put Furacin on his heels if they look red or puffy at all. He's also on an immune supplement (he's been on something similar most of his life as he's the "canary in the coalmine" type) and MSM and I've tinkered a fair bit with his diet to make sure he's as healthy but unstressed as possible.
 
It's true that people with lymphoedema can be sensitive to many substances that do not affect people with healthy skin immunity, lanolin and paraffin based ointments commonly seem to do this. Unfortunately aqueous cream contains a common substance that has recently been found to sometimes damage and reduce the thickness of eczematous skin so may not be suitable for some people - or horses. The important thing is to keep the skin moist enough to avoid cracks that may allow the entry of infections.
It's also important to remember that pastern dermatitis and chronic progressive lymphoedema aren't the same thing, CPL is a congenital primary lymphoedema which damages the immunity of the skin, pastern dermatitis is a term which covers many conditions of the skin which may develop secondary to CPL because of the damaged immunity, but don't cause it. Because pastern dermatitis is a general term it's important to identify the particular condition involved, as treatment for different ones may be quite different and cause more damage if wrongly applied.
 
Thanks HPOWELL, that was really useful. I have paid for a dermatologist to see her (waste of time because i dont have millions of pounds to spend on treatment!) but anyway, she said it looked like chronic progressive lympedema, but also said there is no diagnostic test for it. Although I must admit Im still learning about the condition and some of the information is very conflicting and confusing.

Ive recently had her on over 3 months box rest and its made a massive difference to the skin condition. During this time she has been on norodine granules. Alot of the cracks have dissapeared now and it looks much less angry and agressive. She also wears special "socks" 24/7 (blueline human bandage, like tubigrip) wraps in the stable to keep her legs warm and has golly golloshes gaiters out in the field to keep the mud away. Currently the vet and dermatlogist have suggested regular clipping, bathing in malaseb, and lime sulpher applications.
 
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Have you had a look at diet? If you search for pemphigus you will probably find my pony - pemphigus is a form of dermatitis where they also attack them selves so can sympathise with you!

I've found cutting out mollases, cereal based feeds and chaff has given big improvement. as has not feeding any garlic.

She now has speedibeet with a vit and min supplement in (I mix my own up but otherwise would be equimins meta balance or pro hood on eBay). Importantly I also feed a heaped tablespoon of tumeric - it's a strong anti inflammatory, as well as an anti fungal - seems to really help reduce reactions for my pony. I also use dried thistles periodically if she has any swelling.

I've used a lot of global herbs products with good success too.

As for the actual skin, I use head and shoulders sensitive to reduce the scurf on the skin, and flamazine (prescribed) or betnovate if
Things get bad (steroid cream).

I dot usually advocate steroids but I wonder if a short course will give you the control over the condition to go into mamagment mode rather than fighting mode?
 
Thanks popularfurball. Sounds like your routine is pretty much the same as mine. We use the same.... Flamazine when we get outbreaks, danilon for inflammation and when we get a stubborn patch we need benovate and antibiotics. We actually have it fairly under control now.

That's what my last post was for. Alot off people who were following her progress wanted to see up today's photos. I couldn't get photo bucket to work though so it easier to add her on Facebook. I got the name wrong earlier though. It's pony Stevenson. Email is correct though of you want to search her, beautystevenson @hotmail.co.Uk

Interesting about diet related things. She doesn't get much feed. Sugar beet and happy hoof, hi fibre cubes in winter. I will look up the tumeric, that sounds interesting. Wonder why the garlic causes problems? My mare is on garlic.... Don't suppose she needs to be though. It's just something I have always fed.
 
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